Intercessors other than Christ

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Because it helps to physically see you are not alone in your issue. They don’t go to God FOR me but WITH me. They aren’t mediators but my peers.
That is the same concept we ask saints who are victorious in Christ. While their physical body are here on here awaiting the resurrection, their soul can still love those who love them on earth. I hardly think they want to ignore us while they are in heaven.

The other point is that what they see in heaven is outside time and space. Our view here on earth in finite as Fr. Corapi states in his forum discussion. In heaven, saints received what theologian call the beatific vision granted to them by God. They see God face to face, and they also know that God is very much concern with the well being of us who are still here on earth.

For once I would like to see you try to understand this than being more objective to our position. I know there are other Protestants here like Ed who is sincere and more understanding in Catholic teaching.

Since I have been here since April 2006, the one thing I seen from Non-Catholic Christians is that they are always protesting our doctrines and practices as if we have been deceived by some devil.

I think CAF is meant to open the minds of Non-Catholic Christians why we believe and practice what we do. You can yes, disagree but for once you have to be more understanding than protesting most of the time.

I’m very much fed up with Protestants who come here and say, “that’s not in Scripture therefore it is not truth.” This argue just keep on going and becomes completely pointless.
 
That is the same concept we ask saints who are victorious in Christ. While their physical body are here on here awaiting the resurrection, their soul can still love those who love them on earth. I hardly think they want to ignore us while they are in heaven.

The other point is that what they see in heaven is outside time and space. Our view here on earth in finite as Fr. Corapi states in his forum discussion. In heaven, saints received what theologian call the beatific vision granted to them by God. They see God face to face, and they also know that God is very much concern with the well being of us who are still here on earth.

For once I would like to see you try to understand this than being more objective to our position. I know there are other Protestants here like Ed who is sincere and more understanding in Catholic teaching.

Since I have been here since April 2006, the one thing I seen from Non-Catholic Christians is that they are always protesting our doctrines and practices as if we have been deceived by some devil.

I think CAF is meant to open the minds of Non-Catholic Christians why we believe and practice what we do. You can yes, disagree but for once you have to be more understanding than protesting most of the time.

I’m very much fed up with Protestants who come here and say, “that’s not in Scripture therefore it is not truth.” This argue just keep on going and becomes completely pointless.
I am really quite confused by your post. What are you trying to get at here? Are you implying that I only come to argue and not listen? I hope this is not your view because it simply isn’t the truth. I have been brought up to test everything against scripture so why would I suddenly stop? Just because YOU say it is so I can’t just turn around and go ‘Oh my Goodness! You are right!’. Have some patience man…😊
 
I am really quite confused by your post. What are you trying to get at here? Are you implying that I only come to argue and not listen? I hope this is not your view because it simply isn’t the truth. I have been brought up to test everything against scripture so why would I suddenly stop? Just because YOU say it is so I can’t just turn around and go ‘Oh my Goodness! You are right!’. Have some patience man…😊
I have seen you try to test if our doctrines are against Scripture when it is clearly not against Scripture.

I can see why someone who is a Protestant would not understand the doctrines of our faith, especially the veneration of the saints by asking for their intercession. It would take time, I think you would be the next in line who would at least to understand our faith.

I have mention that Ed understands Catholicism as well as other Protestants like ALLFORHIM… just to name a few.
 
Indeed, if the church consists only of a few billion “me and Jesus”, then no one else is necessary. Why even join a church? But the situation is more like the situation stated by a US founding father (forgot which one) - “We shall all hang together or we shall all hang alone.”

Christianity is not about me. It’s about us. Example: The purpose of marriage is not about me, it’s about us…how husband and wife lead each other to God, and in the process co-create with God new human beings (we provide the bodies, God provides the soul) so that there can be even more citizens of heaven. The cloud of witnesses.

Me and Jesus is inherently selfish. Us and Jesus is not.

In the body of Christ, all the elements work together, to help each other. Me and Jesus just doesn’t apply here.
Hi,🙂
I think it was Ben Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. But the body of Christ is only made possible by Christ. We are in it only because He is the Head of that body. Our common heart, our common bond is not because of the saints but to Him to whom all the saints lay their crowns at His feet. Also didn’t Jesus instruct us to pray to the Father asking everything in His Name? - John 15:6 whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. Also Mat 6:6, Mat 6:9, Luke 11:2; John 16:26-27. Why would we set aside the Lord’s instructions to ask the Saints to pray when He has said the Father Himself loves us and will hear what we ask in His Name?

God Bless, Pat
 
Hi,🙂
I think it was Ben Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. But the body of Christ is only made possible by Christ. We are in it only because He is the Head of that body. Our common heart, our common bond is not because of the saints but to Him to whom all the saints lay their crowns at His feet. Also didn’t Jesus instruct us to pray to the Father asking everything in His Name? - John 15:6 whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. Also Mat 6:6, Mat 6:9, Luke 11:2; John 16:26-27. Why would we set aside the Lord’s instructions to ask the Saints to pray when He has said the Father Himself loves us and will hear what we ask in His Name?

God Bless, Pat
The Lord instruction is not negated when we ask saints to intercede for us. In our Liturgy, we ask the saints to pray for us. The Catholic Mass, the Church Militant (us on earth), Church Victorious (Saints in Heaven) and Saints Suffering (Purgatory) pray together to God. This is what we Catholic call the Communion of Saints.

The entire family of God partake in the worship of God.
 
I have seen you try to test if our doctrines are against Scripture when it is clearly not against Scripture.
If I try to test it against scripture then it CLEARLY is not as clear to me as it is to YOU. I think this is a key issue you need to realize. Just because it makes sense to you doesn’t mean I have to automatically see it as clear.
I can see why someone who is a Protestant would not understand the doctrines of our faith, especially the veneration of the saints by asking for their intercession. It would take time, I think you would be the next in line who would at least to understand our faith.
‘who would at least to understand our faith.’? What does this mean? I am here aren’t I? Asking questions and asking for proof because I can’t see it. Why do you seem so frustrated. With my faith in Christ I would like to think it is the same faith you have. We have different ways of worshipping and understanding but it doesn’t mean either side loves Him less.
I have mention that Ed understands Catholicism as well as other Protestants like ALLFORHIM… just to name a few.
And that is fine… what does this have to do with me (since you quoted my post)? Some people understand things faster than others. Doesn’t mean I am not trying… But thanx for trying to judge my heart and my motives… 😊
 
If I try to test it against scripture then it CLEARLY is not as clear to me as it is to YOU. I think this is a key issue you need to realize. Just because it makes sense to you doesn’t mean I have to automatically see it as clear.
This thread which deal specifically deals with saints is one to open your mind to understand it. I hope in the light of the Holy Spirit, that you understand why Catholics often ask saints to intercede.

I would recommend going to scripturecatholic.com

This website gives a Scriptural Explanation on Catholic Doctrine. Another website is biblechristiansociety.com. This Apologetic lines give a Scriptural reasons on all Catholic doctrine.
‘who would at least to understand our faith.’? What does this mean? I am here aren’t I? Asking questions and asking for proof because I can’t see it. Why do you seem so frustrated. With my faith in Christ I would like to think it is the same faith you have. We have different ways of worshipping and understanding but it doesn’t mean either side loves Him less.
You can post your questions all you want, and we’ll do our best to give you the best answers we can give through reasoning, Scriptural proof text, as well as the writings of the ECF.
And that is fine… what does this have to do with me (since you quoted my post)? Some people understand things faster than others. Doesn’t mean I am not trying… But thanx for trying to judge my heart and my motives… 😊
I try to be charitable when I write these replies, and pray to God I do not lose my temper.
 
This thread which deal specifically deals with saints is one to open your mind to understand it. I hope in the light of the Holy Spirit, that you understand why Catholics often ask saints to intercede.

I would recommend going to scripturecatholic.com

This website gives a Scriptural Explanation on Catholic Doctrine. Another website is biblechristiansociety.com. This Apologetic lines give a Scriptural reasons on all Catholic doctrine.
I will have to look into this… Thanx. 🙂
You can post your questions all you want, and we’ll do our best to give you the best answers we can give through reasoning, Scriptural proof text, as well as the writings of the ECF.
And I appreciate this… But you do so with a condemning attitude so anything regarded as a response to my question just makes me turn away. I can’t read and understand what you say without feeling attacked. So, usually your posts get a once over and then I respond if I feel the need… Maybe this is why you feel that I am not hear to understand, because of my reaction to your post. 🤷
I try to be charitable when I write these replies, and pray to God I do not lose my temper.
Doesn’t always happen. Your anger and bitterness towards protestants is almost ALWAYS evident in any post you write where we are involved.

But enough, back to your original post… sorry to hijack.
 
Reading from the early Christians, we can clearly see this was a practice accepted. St. Augustine’s Confessions (`398 AD) mentions the prayers to Saints his mother Monica did. Of course I am not saying that this book is canonical at all, but it does give us a good look at earlier Christians from that time period, and the practice still performed in the Eastern Churches after the Great Schism.
Of course there is a difference seeing something practiced in 398 AD and 148 AD.

No doubt this practice goes “way back” in church history. I personally think the strenght of this argument is to show the practice is not evil. However this argument weaker weaker if it is meant to show the practice is true. Maybe if the date were 148 AD there would be a higher probability that yes indeed the practice originates with the apostles.
I think the practice is only questioned from the Reformation time ? That is what one thousand five hundred years after the establishment of the Church ? 75% of the history of Christianity has passed and this practice is not questioned ?
I think it is natural when the church divides upon itself for the excluded faction to revisit assumptions that the original faction has held.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that the excluded faction got it right either, but sometimes a critical look at what we believe and why we believe it is a good thing (this to me is a big weakness of the whole “impossible to err” thing).
You can say I can’t clearly find it in Scripture, however that is the whole point of the argument. Without a complete common Authority there can be not complete resolution to this issue. Protestant’s believe of Church from the Bible (With the Holy Spirit) will not give us the same basis of authority as the Bible from the Church (with the Holy Spirit).
Well I have to have some basis of belief before I will jump in and swallow it. Otherwise, I’m quite a gullible person and you could probably get me to believe anything. Without seeing it clearly in Scripture, the case for a belief or practice becomes quite difficult (not impossible…just difficult) at least for me.
I think the term prayer is commonly confused with worship. And the difference of authorities makes this an unresolvable issue between the two great divisions of believe that can only be understood but not necessarily accepted.
I think I understand this issue. And if I take your word at face value (and why shouldn’t I), the standard Protestant apologetic arguments against this practice just don’t line up (your arguments are the strongest in showing that the practice is not evil).

But just because the practice is not evil does not necessarily mean that it is true.
 
You people seem to be arguing about something that children can understand… why use big words and argue with each other. I just became Catholic at Easter. I belonged to the Church of God before that.

It seems to me that even though my previous church didn’t teach us anything about “prayer and saints” I did learn enough that when our priest explained things in RCIA class I got it.

I have had to defend this new faith to all of my family and have gotten 8 more to convert with two more in RCIA starting next month.

In a childs terms it is this simple:
  1. We are the body of Christ.
  2. When we leave our physical bodies we are still the body of
    Christ (A whole lot closer to the head of the body)
  3. The saints can pray for us and do pray for us when we ask
    them to. (No different from asking your spouse or your
    neighbor).
  4. Doesn’t Jesus say something like "When 2 or more gather
    in my name? (Then you probably have a better chance with
    someone praying with you).
  5. The saints are as much here with us as our neighbors and
    our families. (They walked the earth when Jesus died on the
    cross)
  6. The angles hear our prayers and take them to the Father as
    well (The bible says something like “be careful what you do
    to them for their angel sits at the foot of the Father”)
  7. The rich man in Hell asking that Lazerus be able to go and
    warn his brothers lets you know that they can.
  8. The saints are not dead…They are alive in Christ Jesus.
My philosophy may be childlike even though I’m 44 years old, and I can’t quote exact scripture but I’m working on it.

I can simply tell you what I told my dad when he asked me why I would ever pray to Mary…

ME: She was perfect … do you agree daddy?
DAD: I don’t know about that.
ME: If you were God and you could pick any mother you wanted
wouldn’t you pick a perfect one?
DAD: Ok, I’ll give you that.
ME: Have you ever been to your mother’s grave and just sat and
talked to her for a while??
DAD: Sure, we all do that.
ME: Do you believe she is in Heaven??
DAD: Sure
ME: Do you believe that she can hear you??
DAD: Sure, I guess.
ME: Then why don’t you think that Jesus’ mother is in heaven and
that she can hear you??
DAD: SILENCE followed by “You are probably right”.
 
Yes, came to EARTH… Jesus didn’t address him from EARTH to HEAVEN…
And you have answered your own argument. Heaven does speak to us. Moses and Elijah are alive in heaven and spoke to Jesus and came to the earth. If they can do so, then why not other saints? Why did they come?
Who said God can’t make a difference in my life?! I just said that I don’t believe that God changes His mind with my request just because 50 other people are praying for it too. He most definitely DOES make a difference in my life. In fact, I wouldn’t be alive today if it weren’t for Him.
Just because you don’t believe doesn’t make it untrue. People praying for a miracle or change of events on earth do make a difference to God. When he sees people really care enough to pray about it He answers.
How? Do you hear them? Do they do things that God can’t? Whenever anyone in scripture had issues they went STRAIGHT to God. I take great comfort in the following scripture:
Yes, I hear them. They have helped me numerous times too. They do things God sends them to do. When people had issues they also went to Jesus Christ. They also went to the apostles and were healed of diseases and illnesses. We can also go to them now. Why would going to Paul or Paul appearing to us be any different than Moses or Elijah?
I think you misread my post… or just jumped to certain conclusions because of your view of protestants… 🤷
I took what you wrote found here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2618418&postcount=5
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Singinbeauty:
Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation. Does God automatically say ‘Well I was going to say no to this but now that you have 50 people praying for you I think I will change my mind.’? Something tells me, no.
You wrote that when you ask others to pray it is more to pacify you than you thinking it is going to help the situation. Therefore, you have a lack of faith in God to do what you have asked others to do for you.

Again I say, have faith in God.

Peace…

Mystic Warrior
 
And you have answered your own argument. Heaven does speak to us. Moses and Elijah are alive in heaven and spoke to Jesus and came to the earth. If they can do so, then why not other saints? Why did they come?
But do the saints come to the earth when you address them. Physically? Do you look up and see and touch them? If this is the case I may have to re-think my position…
Just because you don’t believe doesn’t make it untrue. People praying for a miracle or change of events on earth do make a difference to God. When he sees people really care enough to pray about it He answers.
So you believe that God changes His mind? Not according to Numbers:

Yes, I hear them. They have helped me numerous times too. They do things God sends them to do. When people had issues they also went to Jesus Christ. They also went to the apostles and were healed of diseases and illnesses. We can also go to them now. Why would going to Paul or Paul appearing to us be any different than Moses or Elijah?
I dunno, I am still trying to wrap my head around it. I just don’t understand going to anyone but God (which includes Jesus Christ). It’s rare for me to go to anyone here on earth to pray for me because I feel confident in God that He is faithful and big enough to answer my prayers.
Not really. You injected what you wanted to read into it.
You wrote that when you ask others to pray it is more to pacify you than you thinking it is going to help the situation. Therefore, you have a lack of faith in God to do what you have asked others to do for you.
So thinking that God is big enough to answer my prayers and to be faithful to what He promises is not having faith in Him? Your circular logic is awful. He is all I need…

Again I say, have faith in God.

Peace…

Mystic Warrior
Again, I do. But thanx for thinking you are God and can judge my heart and intentions and my Faith… 😊
 
The Lord instruction is not negated when we ask saints to intercede for us. In our Liturgy, we ask the saints to pray for us. The Catholic Mass, the Church Militant (us on earth), Church Victorious (Saints in Heaven) and Saints Suffering (Purgatory) pray together to God. This is what we Catholic call the Communion of Saints.

The entire family of God partake in the worship of God.
I too believe in Corporate prayer but I also believe we have one intercessor between God and man, Jesus Christ. I just want to be sure we pray to the Father in Jesus name as He instructed us and not think we are not good enough to pray directly to the Father, as Jesus, the apostles, and the early church did. True I am in myself undeserving but none of us, even the saints of reknown were worthy either. We are under the blood of Jesus and it is His sacrifice alone that allows us to approach the throne of God with confidence & boldness, whereby we cry ;Abba, Father!"
 
Certainly, so I guess it’s now important to look at why be believe that.

Take a look at this link: apologeticsfromscratch.blogspot.com/2007/05/why-do-catholics-pray-to-saints.html
Yup I read the article.

Actually I agree with the article on the premise that physically dead Christians in heaven do have assignments to pray for physically alive Christians on earth. I further more agree with the premise that physically dead Christians in heaven do have at least some cognitive awareness of what is happening on earth. There are a body of Scriptures that suggest this is the case. (I also agree with the premise in the article that the practice is not evil if I take you at your word on this, and why shouldn’t I)

However, I do not know at any given time who (if anyone) in heaven might be cognitively aware of what is happening in my little life. If I did know this, it would seem at least a little less weird talking to this physically dead person.

Furthermore, I see no indication that I need to initiate the process if a saint in heaven should be praying with me for a prayer request. It seems more credible to me anyway that prayer in heaven for events on earth is initiated in heaven.

If that is the case (and I personally believe it is), I don’t need to worry about initiating the process of communicating to a physically dead person who may or may not be actually aware of me at that time. I can take confidence in the fact that if heaven really needs to get involved in a given request of mine, that it will do so on its own initiative.

And admittedly it seems much less weird to me this way.🙂
 
Yup I read the article.

Actually I agree with the article on the premise that physically dead Christians in heaven do have assignments to pray for physically alive Christians on earth. I further more agree with the premise that physically dead Christians in heaven do have at least some cognitive awareness of what is happening on earth. There are a body of Scriptures that suggest this is the case. (I also agree with the premise in the article that the practice is not evil if I take you at your word on this, and why shouldn’t I)

However, I do not know at any given time who (if anyone) in heaven might be cognitively aware of what is happening in my little life. If I did know this, it would seem at least a little less weird talking to this physically dead person.

Furthermore, I see no indication that I need to initiate the process if a saint in heaven should be praying with me for a prayer request. It seems more credible to me anyway that prayer in heaven for events on earth is initiated in heaven.

If that is the case (and I personally believe it is), I don’t need to worry about initiating the process of communicating to a physically dead person who may or may not be actually aware of me at that time. I can take confidence in the fact that if heaven really needs to get involved in a given request of mine, that it will do so on its own initiative.

And admittedly it seems much less weird to me this way.🙂
Well, think about it this way. God knows everything you need and want yet he still asks that you pray for him. I believe that it works the same way with saints in heaven (or even people here on earth). They might not be praying for EVERYBODY who needs prayer but will pray for you if you ask them.

How about you try it? It can’t hurt and maybe that’s how’ll come to believe that.

But undertand that disbelief in the intersection of saints is a modern protestant invention:

Hermas
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).

(continued…)
 
Methodius
“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem
“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . “ (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers
“To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting” (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraim the Syrian
“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

“Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil
“By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius
“Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]” (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

** Gregory of Nyssa**
“[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom” (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

(continued…)
 
John Chrysostom
“He that wears the purple * . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead” (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan
“May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance” (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

** Jerome**
“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

** Augustine**
“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
Code:
“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).
If you don’t trust these Early Church Fathers, how can you trust yourself? In fact, how can you trust the Bible to be inspired?

Pax Christi,
~G*
 
But do the saints come to the earth when you address them. Physically? Do you look up and see and touch them? If this is the case I may have to re-think my position…
I have never had a saint come to me that I could recognize. That doesn’t mean they aren’t there. You can’t normally see angels but they help us. Not a valid argument.
So you believe that God changes His mind? Not according to Numbers:
You need to read more of the Bible. In Exodus 32 God was angry because of the golden calf incident. Moses pleaded with God to not destroy his people. Then in verse 14 we read:

“Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.[NIV]”

I guess God does change his mind because of the prayers of his people.
God promises to answer our prayers. When someone prays for me they go to God WITH me. But just because people come with me doesn’t make my request more valid. He already knows the answer before I ask it. He already has His plan and always answers my request no matter who is coming with me. Sometimes the answer is ‘yes’ sometimes it is ‘no’ and sometimes it is ‘not yet’. But He is faithful and kind and wonderful! Glory be to God! He sees the big picture even if I can’t and I find comfort in that.
You believe in Calvin’s twisted theology that God predestines everything and there’s not a thing you can do about it. You are predestined to Hell or Heaven and everything in between. That leaves no room for freewill.
I dunno, I am still trying to wrap my head around it. I just don’t understand going to anyone but God (which includes Jesus Christ). It’s rare for me to go to anyone here on earth to pray for me because I feel confident in God that He is faithful and big enough to answer my prayers.
If you believe He is faithful and big enough to answer prayers then why did you say in post#5:
SinginginBeauty:
Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation.
where you clearly say that asking those who are with you on earth to pray for you is more for you than for you thinking it is going to help? Either you believe God to do something or don’t. If you don’t believe He will help the situation then you don’t have faith. You believe He is an inflexible tyrant who forces Himself on His creation. That simply isn’t true.
Not really. You injected what you wanted to read into it.
I read into what you put into it.
So thinking that God is big enough to answer my prayers and to be faithful to what He promises is not having faith in Him? Your circular logic is awful. He is all I need…
You are the one who posted that you
SinginginBeauty:
Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation
ask others to pray more for you than you thinking their prayers will help the situation. So, I guess you are saying it’s just you and Jesus and forget about the saints of old and the Angels that God set up to help us.
Again, I do. But thanx for thinking you are God and can judge my heart and intentions and my Faith… 😊
I discerned your statement for what it was. It’s called using the mind that God gave us to come to logical conclusions, not judgement. I cannot judge one’s state of grace or heart. I have no embarrasment for asking you to have faith because by your post you showed a lack of it in my opinion. We are called to lift each other up and to sharpen each other in the faith. Either you accept this rebuke or not. I wash my hands.

MW
 
Praying on our behalf is interceding. All prayer in Christ is His prayer and comes under the umbrella of his intercession. The Saints in heaven are perfected in Charity, united in the will of the Father. They interced with the mind of Christ.

WHen I was still Anglican, this was perfectly clear to me.
do you call someone in your parish who may pray for you an intercessor?? That would be a first for me.
 
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