Intercessors other than Christ

[Mannyfit75]

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).

 

[meandean]

Right. And to be fair, I think Baptists generally are not. Mohler had a good essay on the subject.

Edwin

if god is who he says he is , then why by all means, would you need any other help whatsoever? if he is all powerful, and always present,everywhere, all the time,then why go to someone else?

 

[SFLCatholic]

No way! Get yourself right with our Lord and Savior then when your right, be a disciple! YOUR comment is a VERY scary one, the adversary whom can even disguise as an angel light can fool thousands who believe this type of thinking with one beautiful vision.

Like Martin Luther?

 

[meandean]

That is the same concept we ask saints who are victorious in Christ. While their physical body are here on here awaiting the resurrection, their soul can still love those who love them on earth. I hardly think they want to ignore us while they are in heaven.

The other point is that what they see in heaven is outside time and space. Our view here on earth in finite as Fr. Corapi states in his forum discussion. In heaven, saints received what theologian call the beatific vision granted to them by God. They see God face to face, and they also know that God is very much concern with the well being of us who are still here on earth.

For once I would like to see you try to understand this than being more objective to our position. I know there are other Protestants here like Ed who is sincere and more understanding in Catholic teaching.

Since I have been here since April 2006, the one thing I seen from Non-Catholic Christians is that they are always protesting our doctrines and practices as if we have been deceived by some devil.

I think CAF is meant to open the minds of Non-Catholic Christians why we believe and practice what we do. You can yes, disagree but for once you have to be more understanding than protesting most of the time.

I’m very much fed up with Protestants who come here and say, “that’s not in Scripture therefore it is not truth.” This argue just keep on going and becomes completely pointless.

whether its catholism or protestant view, both sides condemn each others view. but the one thing i know to be true, is that gods word is true, everything else can fly out the window.everything in the bible points to jesus, and to him alone.this is what i believe. now, i have a good catholic buddy of mine point me to this site. not to condemn the catholics, but to try and uderstand their ways.so if i offend you by asking is it scriptual, i will not apologize.the bible says iron sharpens iron, and not by sword, not by might, but by the spirit of god.if you don’t want to talk, then don’t. if you do, then do.but don’t get upset when, me, a non catholic, asks a question that that challenges a belief that your loyal too,which has no scriptual base whatsoever. likewise, for me as well.

 

[Didi]

if god is who he says he is , then why by all means, would you need any other help whatsoever? if he is all powerful, and always present,everywhere, all the time,then why go to someone else?

Because He wants us to love each other. That was His commandment: “Love one another as I have loved you.” How do we do that? By caring for each other physically, emotionally and spiritually. We are also to follow His example. He prayed for his disciples all the time. He prayed for His Church. We are also to pray for others.

 

[mozart-250]

If you don’t trust these Early Church Fathers, how can you trust yourself? In fact, how can you trust the Bible to be inspired?

Well first of all, I don’t trust myself.

Second of all, I do not consider asking a physically dead saint in heaven to pray for you a great evil. A part of my reason is that I have seen and heard of some Christians whom I love and respect do the same thing. Almost.

First of all my grandmother, after my grandfather passed away said that sometimes she felt the presence of my grandfather with her. She was known at times to speak to him.

Now if I were to believe some Protestants here, my grandmother would have been performing the evil of “bringing up the dead” by speaking to my grandfather if I were to be consistent in applying the same Scripture from the Old Testament that some Protestants do against Catholics.

Of course I think that to be ridiculous to apply to my grandmother. Whether my grandfather was there or not, I can not say. What I do know is that sensation caused comfort to my grandmother that I would not deprive her of.

Also, I was at a memorial service this summer to a dear pastor friend who had passed away. At that service, words were spoken to the effect that “Pony” was watching the service and worshiping along with us (but at a much greater level). Wouldn’t this be “bringing up the dead” if I were to consistently apply this Scripture?

Then I remember of reading in the early church where St. Ignatius supposedly appeared to the faithful following his martyrdom. Know I don’t know whether that actually happened, but certainly somehow sensing his presence (whether it was real or not) certainly would have provided comfort to the faithful who were left.

Of course to some Protestants this too must be “bringing up the dead”.

Certainly the early church experienced the very human emotions and feelings I saw my grandmother experience and that I witnessed at the memorial service in response to their beloved martyrs. Certainly the early church believed the Scriptures that these martyrs were amongst the great cloud of witnesses who were observing us. Certainly the early church believed the Scriptures that these saints were not up in heaven playing harps but somehow engaged in meaningful, active, ministry. Against such a backdrop, it is understandable that a grieving church who witnessed a martyrdom of dear friends would receive great comfort by asking this beloved martyr to lift requests before the throne of grace. Somehow I fail to see the great evil of this practice in this context.

 

[mozart-250]

How about you try it? It can’t hurt and maybe that’s how’ll come to believe that.

Actually once I was mulling over the very same topic and concluded that if in fact there were some physically dead saints in heaven who actually were observing me and watching me lift up a prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ, that certainly would be joining with me in my prayer whether I asked them to or not. I mean why else would they be watching me except for that purpose.

Would they observe me pray but refuse to pray with me unless I explicitely asked them too. I think not.

And that sort of resolved it for me. Praying with the saints to the Lord Jesus Christ (or at least acknowledging the possibility of an anonymous saint or two praying with me)…cool. Praying to a saint…still kinda weird.

 

[meandean]

Well, think about it this way. God knows everything you need and want yet he still asks that you pray for him. I believe that it works the same way with saints in heaven (or even people here on earth). They might not be praying for EVERYBODY who needs prayer but will pray for you if you ask them.

How about you try it? It can’t hurt and maybe that’s how’ll come to believe that.

But undertand that disbelief in the intersection of saints is a modern protestant invention:

Hermas
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

“Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins” (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
“Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days” (ibid.).

(continued…)

jesus answered"I AM THE WAY,AND I AM THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. NOONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME. IF YOU KNEW ME, YOU WOULD KNOW MY FATHER AS WELL.

 

[holy_wood]

jesus answered"I AM THE WAY,AND I AM THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. NOONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME. IF YOU KNEW ME, YOU WOULD KNOW MY FATHER AS WELL.

Wow you think anyone disagrees with this.

Col. 1:24

I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

What was lacking in the afflictions of Christ?

I interpret it as saying that though Christ is the one mediator he can apply that mediatorship anyway he likes.

And because he is so cool like that he lets us help in that mediatorship.

Its very telling how you ignored such an extensive list of Christian scholars who profess belief in intercessory prayer, scholars who date as early as 80 AD… Whats up with that.

What about the prayers to the saints written in the catacombs of Rome?

Are they futile?

2 Maccabees 12:43-45

And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

More of a proof for Purgatory than it is for the Communion of Saints but it shows our actions benefited the dead. Was not their faith sufficient?

Anywayz if we can do those who have died in sin a solid. I see no reason why those who have been made perfect in rightousness return the favor by doing us a solid (i.e. praying on our behalf to Christ)

P.S. I know you probably don’t believe Maccabees is inspired but I do so please argue your position from my level of understanding.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

jesus answered"I AM THE WAY,AND I AM THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. NOONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME. IF YOU KNEW ME, YOU WOULD KNOW MY FATHER AS WELL.

Excellent verse! That’s why I’m Catholic! I couldn’t possibly know Jesus well by staying outside of the Church He himself had given to us – the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that holds the fullness of truth!

 

[Sagefrakrobatik]

I dont know if the following point has been asked so i apologize in advance for the redundantcy. Right now i dont have the perserverance nor the time do go through 8 pages of post. My question is when praying to the saints how do you choose which saints to pray to?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I dont know if the following point has been asked so i apologize in advance for the redundantcy. Right now i dont have the perserverance nor the time do go through 8 pages of post. My question is when praying to the saints how do you choose which saints to pray to?

Well, generally you can choose anyone but the best thing is to go for the patron saint of whatever you want to pray for. You will then be praying to those who had similar experiences in their life.

Check out this website: catholic-forum.com/saints/indexsnt.htm

God bless,
~G

 

[meandean]

Yes he did. Didn’t Paul say that is pleases the Lord for us to intercede for one another. Didn’t the angels offers prayers of the saints in the Book or Revelations.

All Christians living or dead in this together…in this long fight against the evil one,

I AM THE LORD GOD WHO BROUGHT YOU OUT OF EGYPT, OUT OF THE LAND OF SLAVERY. YOU SHALL NOT HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME. YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL IN THE FORM OF ANYTHING IN HEAVEN ABOVE OR ON THE EARTH OR IN THE WATERS BELOW. YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM OR WORSHIP THEM; FOR I, THE LORD YOUR GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I AM THE LORD GOD WHO BROUGHT YOU OUT OF EGYPT, OUT OF THE LAND OF SLAVERY. YOU SHALL NOT HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME. YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF AN IDOL IN THE FORM OF ANYTHING IN HEAVEN ABOVE OR ON THE EARTH OR IN THE WATERS BELOW. YOU SHALL NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM OR WORSHIP THEM; FOR I, THE LORD YOUR GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD.

There are no idols in the Catholic Church.

 

[meandean]

Wow you think anyone disagrees with this.

Col. 1:24

What was lacking in the afflictions of Christ?

I interpret it as saying that though Christ is the one mediator he can apply that mediatorship anyway he likes.

And because he is so cool like that he lets us help in that mediatorship.

Its very telling how you ignored such an extensive list of Christian scholars who profess belief in intercessory prayer, scholars who date as early as 80 AD… Whats up with that.

What about the prayers to the saints written in the catacombs of Rome?

Are they futile?

2 Maccabees 12:43-45

More of a proof for Purgatory than it is for the Communion of Saints but it shows our actions benefited the dead. Was not their faith sufficient?

Anywayz if we can do those who have died in sin a solid. I see no reason why those who have been made perfect in rightousness return the favor by doing us a solid (i.e. praying on our behalf to Christ)

P.S. I know you probably don’t believe Maccabees is inspired but I do so please argue your position from my level of understanding.

you honor me with your lips but your hearts are far from me.

 

[Pani_Rose]

I was thinking about The Mount of Transfiguration today.
Here is an Orthodox explanation of it, but it shows again the interecession of the saints, they are present yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
orthodox.net/questions/transfiguration-scripture_1.html

 

[meandean]

I was thinking about The Mount of Transfiguration today.
Here is an Orthodox explanation of it, but it shows again the interecession of the saints, they are present yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
orthodox.net/questions/transfiguration-scripture_1.html

you must teach what is according to sound doctrine. titus 2:1

 

[Yerusalyim]

you must teach what is according to sound doctrine. titus 2:1

agreed, but, at that time there were no NEW TESTAMENT scriptures to rely on as “sound doctrine” but there WAS APOSTOLIC TRADITION…which the Catholic Church continues to hold today…theforefore…SCRIPTURE is not the only source of doctrine…rather, “THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH”

 

[Singinbeauty]

agreed, but, at that time there were no NEW TESTAMENT scriptures to rely on as “sound doctrine” but there WAS APOSTOLIC TRADITION…which the Catholic Church continues to hold today…theforefore…SCRIPTURE is not the only source of doctrine…rather, “THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH”

But there WAS a New Testament… It just wasn’t in the form you see today.

 

[Yerusalyim]

OK, try this, there was no OFFICIAL New Testament…