Intercessors other than Christ

[myfavoritmartin]

Right. And to be fair, I think Baptists generally are not.

Edwin

I must point out, accepting the term ecclesial community isn’t offensive, that being said doesn’t mean I accept the Roman Church as the one true church.

There in my opinion is a much deeper meaning to church than the one known around here.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

So I suppose that some catholics probably pray to Abraham and Moses?

Why not?

I have to be honest. I don’t understand this concept of asking those who have gone on to Heaven before me to speak to God for me when I can go to Him directly.

Sure you can go to God directly and you SHOULD. But don’t you ask others to pray for you? The same argument could be asked here. Why ask your friend to pray for you when you can simply go to God.

Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation. Does God automatically say ‘Well I was going to say no to this but now that you have 50 people praying for you I think I will change my mind.’? Something tells me, no. I find no evidence in scripture that ANYONE prayed to anyone but God.

Luke 18:1-8
Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

"For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care about men, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually wear me out with her coming!’ "

And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Don’t you think that if the widow brought two of her friends she she wouldn’t have a greater chance with the judge? And what if the friends were very close him, for example his very good friends?

 

[mozart-250]

I hope this would clarify any confusion which many of you Protestant have about the Catholic Church or the E. Orthodox Church prayer to the saints.

Yup. Got it.

Still talking to those who are spiritually alive but still physically dead seems, well weird.

 

[Didi]

I’m going to come at this from a personal angle.

Several years ago I became very ill, near death, and the doctors couldn’t figure out what was wrong with me.

We had a lot of people praying for me and our family. I remember going to a prayer service and a man I didn’t even know came up to me and said something like: “It’s so good to see you here. I know you have a long way to go to get better, but your illness and the struggles of your family have been a great burden on me.”

My initial reaction (though I didn’t say it) was “A big burden on YOU. Let me tell you about burden…”

Then as I thought about it, prayed, read Scripture and began to understand the theology of suffering, the idea of others praying for us really took hold.

We are the Body of Christ. Jesus is the Head; all of His followers make up the Body. If you are familiar with 1 Corinthians 12, you know this. Verse 26 says: “If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one members in honored, all rejoice together.” We are all intimately connected, just like I need my eyes, my fingers, my nervous system, my brain, my heart, my muscles, etc. to type this right now. I can’t do it with just my fingers.

So, even those brothers and sisters in Christ, still part of the Body of Christ, yet separated because they have left the earth, are still very much a part of me and every Christian. The big difference is, they made it through this valley of tears here on earth, through all the struggles, pains and triumphs we are now experiencing, with the ultimate wisdom of God in their midst. Who better to pray for me? Who better to understand what it is I need than the saints in heaven?

I have been sustained by the power of prayer. I have felt it tangibly. And I know it’s not just those saints-in-making here on earth that are praying, but all those in heaven who are also praying.

Someone asked how prayer affects us, or why we need to pray for each other – do we change God’s mind?

Well, God gave us free will. He doesn’t impose Himself on any of us. Therefore, we have to ask for His grace and mercy. He’s just waiting to give it to us, but we have to ask. His mercy and grace is infinite! The more people we have praying for us, the more His floodgates open up and pour out upon us!

What an awesome and loving God we have! I am so grateful for the communion of saints. I believe I might not still be here on earth without their prayers. Thank you saints in heaven for your prayers! Thank you, Lord, for giving us the gift of a heavenly family!

 

[water]

Yup. Got it.

Still talking to those who are spiritually alive but still physically dead seems, well weird.

The whole concept about God is the weirdest one too, but we believe it.

 

[Nella]

I decided to make this thread to clarify some issues that the Protestants seem to have a confusion.

Jesus did say, there is only One Mediator in Christ. The Catholic affirms deeply.

To truly understand this is to understand the concept of the Communion of Saints. The Communion of Saints is our unity with the Saints in Heaven, Saints in Purgatory and Saints on Earth.

I won’t go into the technical words into this but basically the Communion of Saints combines all our prayers as one to God. Just as I pray for you to pray for me, I can also ask the saints in heaven to pray in behalf for me. Death cannot separate us from the Body of Christ.

I have pray and ask saints to intercede for me and none of the prayers I have said never ignore God himself.

If you been to a Litany of the Saints during Easter Vigil you here these words,

St. Peter and St. Paul, pray for us.

St. Andrew and St. James, pray for us.

Intercession prayer to the saints is not the same as worshiping God. When you put God out of the context when praying to a saint then you are committing idol worship.

The Catholic Church does not teach us to worship saints above God.

I hope this would clarify any confusion which many of you Protestant have about the Catholic Church or the E. Orthodox Church prayer to the saints.

I don’t have a problem with asking the saints in heaven to pray with us as you may not know us Anglicans share your belief in the Communion of Saints, but as far as interceeding goes, that is only for Jesus as he said this explicitly in Scripture.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yup. Got it.

Still talking to those who are spiritually alive but still physically dead seems, well weird.

Tell me do souls have a free will? Do their love for their loves on earth disappear once they go to heaven?

Souls aren’t robots. They a free will, and those who die in Christ willing accept their will to love God. These men and women.

Correct if I’m wrong to make this presumption about Protestant concept of heaven. Do you assume that God is alone by himself in heaven, or do you think the Kingdom of Heaven is Family oriented Kingdom, and this family has God as our Father, Jesus as Our brother, and Mother as our Spiritual Mother?

I see no reason why Jesus often call God Father. I believe he knew more about heaven than you do. Why else did he gave Mary to John at the cross?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t have a problem with asking the saints in heaven to pray with us as you may not know us Anglicans share your belief in the Communion of Saints, but as far as interceeding goes, that is only for Jesus as he said this explicitly in Scripture.

Then why do you pray the rosary?

 

[Nella]

Then why do you pray the rosary?

meditation on prayer. Why do you pray it?

 

[Apryl]

I don’t have a problem with asking the saints in heaven to pray with us as you may not know us Anglicans share your belief in the Communion of Saints, but as far as interceeding goes, that is only for Jesus as he said this explicitly in Scripture.

But who intercedes for us TO Jesus?

(This is something I never understood about the resistance to the idea of intercession of saints)

Jesus is the intercessor for us, to God the Father.

Can’t someone intercede (in your mind) to God the Son?

 

[Mannyfit75]

meditation on prayer. Why do you pray it?

Because it helps my spiritual grown. I do believe yo do pray it. The rosary does have the following at the end of the Hail Mary prayer. “Pray for us sinners. Now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

 

[mercygate]

I don’t have a problem with asking the saints in heaven to pray with us as you may not know us Anglicans share your belief in the Communion of Saints, but as far as interceeding goes, that is only for Jesus as he said this explicitly in Scripture.

Praying on our behalf is interceding. All prayer in Christ is His prayer and comes under the umbrella of his intercession. The Saints in heaven are perfected in Charity, united in the will of the Father. They interced with the mind of Christ.

WHen I was still Anglican, this was perfectly clear to me.

 

[wmscott]

So I suppose that some catholics probably pray to Abraham and Moses?

I have to be honest. I don’t understand this concept of asking those who have gone on to Heaven before me to speak to God for me when I can go to Him directly.

Sure, I ask for those who are with me here on earth to pray for me but this is more for me than me thinking it is going to help the situation. Does God automatically say ‘Well I was going to say no to this but now that you have 50 people praying for you I think I will change my mind.’? Something tells me, no. I find no evidence in scripture that ANYONE prayed to anyone but God.

With respect - you acknowledge that you ask people here on earth to pray for you? are you not then using a mediator other than Christ? and the question is how do you know that the person you are asking to be a mediator for you in not on a fast track to hell?

 

[mozart-250]

Tell me do souls have a free will? Do their love for their loves on earth disappear once they go to heaven?

Souls aren’t robots. They a free will, and those who die in Christ willing accept their will to love God. These men and women.

Correct if I’m wrong to make this presumption about Protestant concept of heaven. Do you assume that God is alone by himself in heaven, or do you think the Kingdom of Heaven is Family oriented Kingdom, and this family has God as our Father, Jesus as Our brother, and Mother as our Spiritual Mother?

I see no reason why Jesus often call God Father. I believe he knew more about heaven than you do. Why else did he gave Mary to John at the cross?

Yup. I don’t disagree.

Talking to people who are physically dead still seems weird.

 

[wmscott]

No ONE other than JESUS is NECESSARY!

We are called to gather worship teach and train each other!

No way! Get yourself right with our Lord and Savior then when your right, be a disciple! YOUR comment is a VERY scary one, the adversary whom can even disguise as an angel light can fool thousands who believe this type of thinking with one beautiful vision.

It’s about GOD, it’s God’s picture of Jesus and His elect, built into our lives (our marraige is the symbol of Christ and Bride) NO us it’s all to be for HIS GLORY not US!

Whose theology is this?? ,

With respect - I pose the same question to you as i did to SINGINBEAUTY - have you ever asked anyone in your church or family to pray for you - if so why? if Christ is the only mediator>

 

[mozart-250]

The whole concept about God is the weirdest one too, but we believe it.

Good answer.

I thought of that too. On one level it does seem weird.

I guess it’s because I believe God is omnipresent, omniscient, and a bunch of other “omnis”. I don’t believe that physically dead people in heaven have these attributes.

 

[mercygate]

Good answer.

I thought of that too. On one level it does seem weird.

I guess it’s because I believe God is omnipresent, omniscient, and a bunch of other “omnis”. I don’t believe that physically dead people in heaven have these attributes.

Although they are not “omni” anything or divine, they are perfected in Charity and united in will with the Father. So it’s weird, but it makes sense to me. I think of it as having a larger love in the mind of Christ.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I don’t have a problem with asking the saints in heaven to pray with us as you may not know us Anglicans share your belief in the Communion of Saints, but as far as interceding goes, that is only for Jesus as he said this explicitly in Scripture.

No, not really. Jesus is the **mediator **between us and God.

1 Tim. 2:5
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

However, while there is only one mediator there are many who **intercede **between us and Jesus. These people are maybe your family, your friends, people here on CAF who you’ve never met or Saint in heaven.

Good answer.

I thought of that too. On one level it does seem weird.

I guess it’s because I believe God is omnipresent, omniscient, and a bunch of other “omnis”. I don’t believe that physically dead people in heaven have these attributes.

First there is sometimes a problem with Protestants (but also Catholics to be fair) to define God by his abilities. This often leads them to the idea that if we believe that sains can hear us we are equating them with God. But that’s a pretty crazy theology. God is not defined by his abilities. He is God by the very fact that he is God. He isn’t God because he is all-omni. He is I AM.

Now, when the Apostles healed the sick by whose power did they do it? When all the prophets were telling us of things to come, by whose power were they doing it? The answer is always God’s power for God is behind everything and without God there is nothing. When we believe that saints hear our prayer we don’t believe they simply have this ability. No, we believe that everything comes from God and it’s because God wills them to do it that they are able to cooperate with us in our journey for salvation. That is one of the reasons why Mary points us to God. She mirrors God’s greatness by being HIS most perfect creature - without him she would not even exist!

 

[myfavoritmartin]

With respect - I pose the same question to you as i did to SINGINBEAUTY - have you ever asked anyone in your church or family to pray for you - if so why? if Christ is the only mediator>

What does your question have to with my post?
Nonetheless
Christ is our only Mediator, Paul says as much in his letters.
When scripture tells us this…
1st timothy 2: 5-6 there is only one mediator that is Jesus Christ.
Also, **Hebrew 7:25 **Therefore he is able to save completely [a] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them., Ephesians. 3: 12 We can go to God with bold confidence through faith in Christ.
Now tell me is Paul wrong and you right?

Intersessory prayer- not the same as mediator.

 

[wmscott]

No, not really. Jesus is the **mediator **between us and God.

1 Tim. 2:5
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

However, while there is only one mediator there are many who **intercede **between us and Jesus. These people are maybe your family, your friends, people here on CAF who you’ve never met or Saint in heaven.

Do you have a rational reason why it’s weird or is it because you feel that way? Because if it’s just your feeling then that’s not a good reason to reject something? Don’t you find the idea of changing iron to gold a bit weird? Guess what, it can be done!

Thanks for the correction in my terminology, my intent was to point out that there are those those who can and do intercede for us, both here on earth and in Heaven. thanks for the correction.