Intercessors other than Christ

[wmscott]

What does your question have to with my post?
Nonetheless
Christ is our only Mediator, Paul says as much in his letters.
When scripture tells us this…
1st timothy 2: 5-6 there is only one mediator that is Jesus Christ.
Also, **Hebrew 7:25 **Therefore he is able to save completely [a] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them., Ephesians. 3: 12 We can go to God with bold confidence through faith in Christ.
Now tell me is Paul wrong and you right?

Intersessory prayer- not the same as mediator.

I stand corrected, please see my previous post. thanks

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Thanks for the correction in my terminology, my intent was to point out that there are those those who can and do intercede for us, both here on earth and in Heaven. thanks for the correction.

No problem.

By the way, I might look stupid but I just checked your profile and realized that you’re catholic. For some reason I thought that your last post was an argument against the intercession of saints.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I stand corrected, please see my previous post. thanks

No problem my friend, its always nice to match up scripture to what we are taught or the way we understand what is being taught. i frequently word search things at biblegateway.com like mediator or saint or things of that nature.

 

[wmscott]

No problem. So you do believe that we can ask those in heaven for prayers?

Definitely, I pray daily and ask the Blessed Mother and St. Michael to pray for me to Christ or Lord. I regard it as very beneficial. I think that I ask the Blessed Mother for her prayers the most, not to mention on Sundays at Mass when we ask all of the Angels and Saints to pray for us.

 

[mercygate]

No, not really. Jesus is the **mediator **between us and God.

1 Tim. 2:5
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

However, while there is only one mediator there are many who **intercede **between us and Jesus. These people are maybe your family, your friends, people here on CAF who you’ve never met or Saint in heaven.

BINGO! The unique mediation of Jesus, if you read Scripture carefully, lies more in the hypostatic union than in his intercessory intervention.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Definitely, I pray daily and ask the Blessed Mother and St. Michael to pray for me to Christ or Lord. I regard it as very beneficial. I think that I ask the Blessed Mother for her prayers the most, not to mention on Sundays at Mass when we ask all of the Angels and Saints to pray for us.

Uups, see my edited post #42.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yup. I don’t disagree.

Talking to people who are physically dead still seems weird.

So is believing that Jesus rose from the dead. I believe in that. We Christians believe in many supernatural events concerning God working amongst his people.

 

[M_Oliver]

Intercession prayer to the saints is not the same as worshiping God.

Correct…

But it is praying to DEAD people. There is not one single biblical verse correctly translated that teaches mankind goes to Heaven immediately after they die. Catholics and Protestants are both wrong. This whole argument between your two churches is completely bogus Scripturally speaking.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Correct…

But it is praying to DEAD people.

Nope, they are alive. Physically dead but more alive than us.

There is not one single biblical verse correctly translated that teaches mankind goes to Heaven immediately after they die. Catholics and Protestants are both wrong. This whole argument between your two churches is completely bogus Scripturally speaking.

Do Catholics teach that we go to heaven immdiatelly after we die? No, many of those who are saved go to puragatory.

And Communion of Saints is made up of those who are ALREADY in heaven.

 

[St_Violet]

Correct…

But it is praying to DEAD people. There is not one single biblical verse correctly translated that teaches mankind goes to Heaven immediately after they die. Catholics and Protestants are both wrong. This whole argument between your two churches is completely bogus Scripturally speaking.

Dead people?. Heaven is not Hades

 

[Mannyfit75]

Correct…

But it is praying to DEAD people. There is not one single biblical verse correctly translated that teaches mankind goes to Heaven immediately after they die. Catholics and Protestants are both wrong. This whole argument between your two churches is completely bogus Scripturally speaking.

Those who are righteous in God go to heaven. Those who die in his grace. They aren’t dead. Why else did Jesus preach eternal life with God the Father? That’s all eternity. Second, we are alive in Christ.

God is God of the Living not the dead. You who know the Bible know better than this.

 

[water]

Good answer.

I thought of that too. On one level it does seem weird.

I guess it’s because I believe God is omnipresent, omniscient, and a bunch of other “omnis”. I don’t believe that physically dead people in heaven have these attributes.

Jesus came on earth and he could’ve never used any apostles or disciples, but why He chose them to be part of His plan in dying for our sins?

If He could allow the apostles to perform miracles, what it is so hard for him to allow those in Heaven, perfectly alive, to continuing working for His glory?

 

[wmscott]

Uups, see my edited post #42.

I may not have been clear in my train of thought as it went from my brain to the keyboard. I am new to defending the faith and this forum is helping me to be able weigh in but at times I seem to get a few terms or concepts turned around. This is a good teaching forum. I mostly read rather than post, but I am trying to give my (name removed by moderator)ut at times. I had quickly assumed mediator and interceding were synonymous, but that was my error. I need to learn to go a little slower.

I really do appreciate the correction and I am always ready to admit when I have made a mistake. Thanks again.

 

[mozart-250]

Jesus came on earth and he could’ve never used any apostles or disciples, but why He chose them to be part of His plan in dying for our sins?

If He could allow the apostles to perform miracles, what it is so hard for him to allow those in Heaven, perfectly alive, to continuing working for His glory?

He could of course. And actually I personally believe that He does have assignments for those who are in heaven for His glory (as opposed to sitting around and playing harps).

But I have no reason to believe that these assignments include somehow listening to everybody on earth and responding to requests for prayer.

 

[mozart-250]

So is believing that Jesus rose from the dead. I believe in that. We Christians believe in many supernatural events concerning God working amongst his people.

Yup it is weird.

But I have a reason to believe it. I can read the Bible and read eye-witness accounts by those who witnessed the event. I choose to believe their reports.

But I have no reason to believe that one of the assignments of physically dead saints in heaven is to somehow listen to everybody on earth for prayer requests and to bring them before the throne of grace.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yup it is weird.

But I have a reason to believe it. I can read the Bible and read eye-witness accounts by those who witnessed the event. I choose to believe their reports.

But I have no reason to believe that one of the assignments of physically dead saints in heaven is to somehow listen to everybody on earth for prayer requests and to bring them before the throne of grace.

Tell me is God the God of the living or the dead? By your premise, God is the God of the dead.

 

[mozart-250]

First there is sometimes a problem with Protestants (but also Catholics to be fair) to define God by his abilities. This often leads them to the idea that if we believe that sains can hear us we are equating them with God. But that’s a pretty crazy theology. God is not defined by his abilities. He is God by the very fact that he is God. He isn’t God because he is all-omni. He is I AM.

Now, when the Apostles healed the sick by whose power did they do it? When all the prophets were telling us of things to come, by whose power were they doing it? The answer is always God’s power for God is behind everything and without God there is nothing. When we believe that saints hear our prayer we don’t believe they simply have this ability. No, we believe that everything comes from God and it’s because God wills them to do it that they are able to cooperate with us in our journey for salvation. That is one of the reasons why Mary points us to God. She mirrors God’s greatness by being HIS most perfect creature - without him she would not even exist!

Good point. He could give physically dead people in heaven the ability to simultaneously listen to all of the people on the earth for prayer requests, without these people being omniscient.

The issue is whether that is something that He does.

 

[robmichel2854]

Good point. He could give physically dead people in heaven the ability to simultaneously listen to all of the people on the earth for prayer requests, without these people being omniscient.

The issue is whether that is something that He does.

Reading from the early Christians, we can clearly see this was a practice accepted. St. Augustine’s Confessions (`398 AD) mentions the prayers to Saints his mother Monica did. Of course I am not saying that this book is canonical at all, but it does give us a good look at earlier Christians from that time period, and the practice still performed in the Eastern Churches after the Great Schism.

I think the practice is only questioned from the Reformation time ? That is what one thousand five hundred years after the establishment of the Church ? 75% of the history of Christianity has passed and this practice is not questioned ?

You can say I can’t clearly find it in Scripture, however that is the whole point of the argument. Without a complete common Authority there can be not complete resolution to this issue. Protestant’s believe of Church from the Bible (With the Holy Spirit) will not give us the same basis of authority as the Bible from the Church (with the Holy Spirit).

I think the term prayer is commonly confused with worship. And the difference of authorities makes this an unresolvable issue between the two great divisions of believe that can only be understood but not necessarily accepted.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the mountain, known as the Transfiguration. Where did he come from? From the grave? He came from Heaven to speak with Jesus. He came down to the mountain on the earth. Angels do the same.

Yes, came to EARTH… Jesus didn’t address him from EARTH to HEAVEN…

If you don’t believe God can make a difference in your life, then why pray at all? To me that shows a lack of faith. Isn’t He the God of miracles and healing? Isn’t He all powerful? God does change his mind. Jonah asked God to spare Nineveh and God did.

Who said God can’t make a difference in my life?! I just said that I don’t believe that God changes His mind with my request just because 50 other people are praying for it too. He most definitely DOES make a difference in my life. In fact, I wouldn’t be alive today if it weren’t for Him.

God isn’t a genie that we ask materialistic things, but he isn’t the inflexible tyrant either. We have to work out our own salvation and choose between good and evil. The saints and angels and Mother Mary help us in our fight.

How? Do you hear them? Do they do things that God can’t? Whenever anyone in scripture had issues they went STRAIGHT to God. I take great comfort in the following scripture:

Everything works according to God’s plans, but that doesn’t mean he is the puppet master. He gives us freewill. If I didn’t believe God could perform miracles and healing through prayer I wouldn’t be a believer in Him. He is the God of the living, not the dead.

Have faith in God.

Peace…

Mystic Warrior

I think you misread my post… or just jumped to certain conclusions because of your view of protestants…

 

[Singinbeauty]

With respect - I pose the same question to you as i did to SINGINBEAUTY - have you ever asked anyone in your church or family to pray for you - if so why? if Christ is the only mediator>

Because it helps to physically see you are not alone in your issue. They don’t go to God FOR me but WITH me. They aren’t mediators but my peers.