Intercessors other than Christ

[Mannyfit75]

But there WAS a New Testament… It just wasn’t in the form you see today.

Just to let you know on some history.

In 382 AD, the Council of Rome, Pope Damascus I and the bishops canonized 27 NT text into part of the Canon of Scripture. Before then there were over 50 Gospels, and only 4 Gospels were accepted use for Liturgical Worship. Since the Early Church was deeply based in Liturgical Worship.

Indeed the Gospels were written in the first Century, but the Church never official canonize them fully until 382 AD. There were other Councils like the Council of Hippo (392 AD) and Council of Carthage 396 AD, and finally Council of Florence 1430 affirm the books all the 46 OT (47 in the EO Church), and 27 New Testament text as part of the Christian Canon.

The Catholic Church in the Council of Trent closed the Canon of Scripture in response to Reformation.

 

[mercygate]

Just to let you know on some history.

In 382 AD, the Council of Rome, Pope Damascus I and the bishops canonized 27 NT text into part of the Canon of Scripture. Before then there were over 50 Gospels, and only 4 Gospels were accepted use for Liturgical Worship. Since the Early Church was deeply based in Liturgical Worship.

Indeed the Gospels were written in the first Century, but the Church never official canonize them fully until 382 AD. There were other Councils like the Council of Hippo (392 AD) and Council of Carthage 396 AD, and finally Council of Florence 1430 affirm the books all the 46 OT (47 in the EO Church), and 27 New Testament text as part of the Christian Canon.

Right. In the year 240, you would have had the 4 gospels. You would not have questioned that they were “scripture.” With the proliferation of questionable and heretical “gospels” it became necessary to state specifically which books were authentic. The AUTHORITY of Scripture as a thing in itself rises along with challenges to the gospel message. When the Apostles and those who received their teaching directly from the Apostles die out, you need a clearer definition of what’s what.

The Catholic Church in the Council of Trent closed the Canon of Scripture in response to Reformation.

The canon was already closed in the councils you mention above. Trent just re-affirmed the canon as it already stood.

 

[Singinbeauty]

OK, try this, there was no OFFICIAL New Testament…

But there was… What makes it ‘official’? I figure it was ‘official’ the moment God told the authors to ‘jot this down’… But that is just me.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

But there was… What makes it ‘official’? I figure it was ‘official’ the moment God told the authors to ‘jot this down’… But that is just me.

And when did God tell the authors to ‘jot this down’ in the NT?

I like Scriptural authority. But that’s just me.

Robert

(retired USA COL and praying for your ‘sweetie’)

 

[holy_wood]

you honor me with your lips but your hearts are far from me.

Sorry if I seem hostile, I’m just fustrated.

We all know scripture and we all believe it.

You believe Saintly intercession is unchristian.

So another poster provided quotes from great theologians who know scripture better than either of us, yet still believe in Saintly intercession. As well as quotes from theologians who lived during Apostolic times and had the chance to either know the Apostles themselves or at least one of there Bishops and Priest who affirm Saintly Intercession.

It boggles my mind how one can deny the truth of Saintly Intercession with so many *Christians *closer to the Apostles time than either of us not only affirm but also fail to condenm it.

If Catholics are wrong then the real Christians who knew the truth should have spoke out against this false doctrine(not necessarily evil, but false)

My belief from scripture about the Saints hearing us come from many passeges hears two them.

Luke 15

7 say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance

if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

If they are aware of our behavior then why not our request for their prayers?

Psalm 103

20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.

This Psalmist seemed to believe the Angels could here his petition for them to praise God. If he could commune with them why not us? Otherwise scripture itself sets up a bad example for God’s children to follow.

I don’t know if God is more inclined to help me due to additional prayers from anyone alive on Earth or in Heaven.

But scripture and tradition tells me that it is a good and that it should be done.

 

[holy_wood]

But there was… What makes it ‘official’? I figure it was ‘official’ the moment God told the authors to ‘jot this down’… But that is just me.

It might have been God-breathed but it was not universally viewed as such. Again, as others have posted that there were many writings that other Christians viewed as inspired or at least authoritative.

A modern day example of how it was back then would be how Protestants deny the deuteronical canon of the OT in Catholic Bibles.

Except back then everyone was part of one Church and probably would not deny there belief in something just because this group of christians believed in it.

The NT as we know it was not binding on all Christians until Pope Damascus I. Up until then there were many people who might have believed the books in the Bible were God-breathed but it was not a crime of heresy if one denied it.

 

[Singinbeauty]

And when did God tell the authors to ‘jot this down’ in the NT?

I like Scriptural authority. But that’s just me.

Robert

(retired USA COL and praying for your ‘sweetie’)

Where do you think the inspiration to write what was written came from??? God. It was official as soon as God gave them the instruction. Do you believe differently?

‘sweetie’… Honey, I ain’t your sweetie… but thanx for the prayers.

 

[Hellisreal]

Where do you think the inspiration to write what was written came from??? God. It was official as soon as God gave them the instruction. Do you believe differently?

‘sweetie’… Honey, I ain’t your sweetie… but thanx for the prayers.

He did not call you his sweetie. He said he was praying for your sweetie, who I assume is the one you reference on your sig line yet have made clear is not your husband.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Whether or not the Protestants here does not recognized the authority of the Catholic Church; they do recognize Church authority. Since it was the Church who made the Bible as authoritative and Word of God.
The Great St. Augustine, My patron saint said this.

“I would not know Scripture, if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church.”

I think it was something like that. I don’t remember the exact quote.

 

[Hellisreal]

But there was… What makes it ‘official’? I figure it was ‘official’ the moment God told the authors to ‘jot this down’… But that is just me.

Agreed.

But, which authors?

Explain how the process went please.

 

[Hellisreal]

Mannyfit75,

I know you are praying for Singingbeauty’s sweetie.



Love you

Whether or not the Protestants here does not recognized the authority of the Catholic Church; they do recognize Church authority. Since it was the Church who made the Bible as authoritative and Word of God.
The Great St. Augustine, My patron saint said this.

“I would not know Scripture, if it wasn’t for the Catholic Church.”

I think it was something like that. I don’t remember the exact quote.

 

[St_Violet]

lets keep in mind that there are over 50 gospels written and The Church felt it was important to use their authority to determine which was inspired and which was not, if The Church were careless we would all be reading and teaching from the Gospel of Judas , where Judas plays the hero, and we would also be telling people stories where Paul baptized a talking lion and that decided not to eat Paul during the persecuation because they were friends. And also where Andrew allowed people to go to hell so they can come back to life to tell everyone else there really is a Hell. so obviously we can see not all the books could be inspired by GOD, and be thankful that the inspiration of the Holy Spirit has guided the Authority of the Catholic Church to carefully choose the books.

 

[LilyM]

But there WAS a New Testament… It just wasn’t in the form you see today.

The NT isn’t simply a verbatim record of all Apostolic teaching y’know - otherwise we’d have transcripts of all the Apostles’ sermons and talks to refer to as well as all the letters they wrote (and you can be reasonably sure they talked and at least dictated letters even if they were illiterate).

Paul, Peter et al didn’t write anything except what was most urgent and uppermost in their minds. Nowhere in scripture does it claim to be a comprehensive record of all necessary beliefs

Add to this that it was at least 20 years before a single word of it was written. Then another 25 or 30 years before Revelation was written.

Did people say ‘whoops, Paul ain’t written to us yet, John ain’t written for us yet - how on earth are we to know what Christianity is all about? Better wait a couplea decades!’ And when these were written did they say

 

[mercygate]

Where do you think the inspiration to write what was written came from??? God. It was official as soon as God gave them the instruction. Do you believe differently?

‘sweetie’… Honey, I ain’t your sweetie… but thanx for the prayers.

It was not universally recgnized as “God breathed.” If it had been, then we would not have needed two councils to ratify the NT canon. Why isn’t the Gospel of Thomas regarded as Scripture? Or the Epistle of Barnabas? Because the councils of Hippo and Carthage did not recognize them among the approved writings to be read in the liturgy.

Scripture may be inspired, but there’s a lot of human sweat that went into discerning which books were to be considered authentic. We take it for granted – particularly Protestants who dismiss all other authority – but the Bible did not come to us on a cloud all bound up in Morocco leather on gilt-edged India paper.

God gave us Scripture through the Church. That’s just a plain, cold fact. It’s actualy the fact that first drew me towards Catholicism.

 

[meandean]

agreed, but, at that time there were no NEW TESTAMENT scriptures to rely on as “sound doctrine” but there WAS APOSTOLIC TRADITION…which the Catholic Church continues to hold today…theforefore…SCRIPTURE is not the only source of doctrine…rather, “THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH”

yes to the apostolic tradition as far as the holy spirit speaking through them, but disagree with you on scripture. you know i spend about an hour a day sharing with a friend who is definitely devout to the catholic church. and though we disagree , we are still able to talk. the one thing that i find that troubles him is the holy spirit. without the spirit, there is no truth, for he reveals this jesus who saves through his word.

 

[richwmiller]

if god is who he says he is , then why by all means, would you need any other help whatsoever? if he is all powerful, and always present,everywhere, all the time,then why go to someone else?

Better yet, since God is all powerful and all knowing, why pray at all? Why do you have to ask if god knows what you want?
Because prayer is more than asking for things. It is developing a relationship. Why did Jesus pray? not to ask for things. But because he was talking with his father. Why talk to the saints? Because they went through this life and made it out alive! You should pick a few that mean something to you and learn about them and get to know them. Prayer is not just asking for something!!!
A adoration worship praise
C contrition sorrow repentance metanoia conversion
T thanksgiving,
S supplication asking petition
ACTS the four parts of prayer

 

[meandean]

Better yet, since God is all powerful and all knowing, why pray at all? Why do you have to ask if god knows what you want?
Because prayer is more than asking for things. It is developing a relationship. Why did Jesus pray? not to ask for things. But because he was talking with his father. Why talk to the saints? Because they went through this life and made it out alive! You should pick a few that mean something to you and learn about them and get to know them. Prayer is not just asking for something!!!
A adoration worship praise
C contrition sorrow repentance metanoia conversion
T thanksgiving,
S supplication asking petition
ACTS the four parts of prayer

so how many of your friendly saints answered your prayers? never mind, i already know. zero. absolutely zero. so this is what it comes down to bro, either jesus becomes your everything in everything, or he isn’t anything because your still filling the holes with anything. worship the creator or creation. you choose…

 

[LilyM]

so how many of your friendly saints answered your prayers? never mind, i already know. zero. absolutely zero. so this is what it comes down to bro, either jesus becomes your everything in everything, or he isn’t anything because your still filling the holes with anything. worship the creator or creation. you choose…

Seriously, by this sort of logic we can’t ask our friends, family (or even our pastors) to pray for us either - we’re equally ‘worshipping’ them and detracting from our relationship with God by so doing. Are you seriously suggesting you’ve never asked prayers from anyone?

Scripture COMMANDS us to pray for others (hence it’s the ‘Our’ Father not the ‘MY’ Father - we’re automatically praying for others in saying it)

And Paul certainly asked for plenty of prayers for himself - you saying he didn’t know what he was on about and was ‘less-than’ in his relationship with God because he asked others for their prayers? Preposterous.

As for answers - of course I’ve had prayers to saints answered, in the affirmative mind you, in all sorts of ways great and small. There are plenty of threads on these forums testifying to saints who have answered posters prayers.

And I have received all sorts of additional benefits in my spiritual life as well - grown closer to Christ by developing a relationship with others who have been close to Him.

I wouldn’t keep praying to the saints if such prayer didn’t bear good fruit in terms of my relationship with God - I have brains enough for that. So do most all of us who pray to them.

 

[meandean]

Sorry if I seem hostile, I’m just fustrated.

We all know scripture and we all believe it.

You believe Saintly intercession is unchristian.

So another poster provided quotes from great theologians who know scripture better than either of us, yet still believe in Saintly intercession. As well as quotes from theologians who lived during Apostolic times and had the chance to either know the Apostles themselves or at least one of there Bishops and Priest who affirm Saintly Intercession.

It boggles my mind how one can deny the truth of Saintly Intercession with so many *Christians *closer to the Apostles time than either of us not only affirm but also fail to condenm it.

If Catholics are wrong then the real Christians who knew the truth should have spoke out against this false doctrine(not necessarily evil, but false)

My belief from scripture about the Saints hearing us come from many passeges hears two them.

Luke 15

if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

If they are aware of our behavior then why not our request for their prayers?

Psalm 103

This Psalmist seemed to believe the Angels could here his petition for them to praise God. If he could commune with them why not us? Otherwise scripture itself sets up a bad example for God’s children to follow.

I don’t know if God is more inclined to help me due to additional prayers from anyone alive on Earth or in Heaven.

But scripture and tradition tells me that it is a good and that it should be done.

john 5:31-47- if i testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. there is another who testifies in my favor, and i know that his testimony is about me valid. you have sent to john and he has testified to the truth. not that i accept human testimony, but i mention it that you may be saved. john was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. i have a testimony weightier then that of john. for the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which i am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me.and the Father who sent me has Himself testified concerning me. you have never heard his voice nor seen His form,nor does His word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one He sent. you diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you posses eternal life. these are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. i do not except praise from men, but i know you, i know that you do not have the love of god in your hearts. i have come in my Fathers nameand you do not accept me, but if someone else comes in his own name. you will accept him.how can you believe if you accept praise from another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?but do not think i will accuse you before the Father. your accuser is moses, on whom your hopes are set. if you believed moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. but since you do not believe what he wrote,how are you going to believe what I say?

 

[meandean]

Seriously, by this sort of logic we can’t ask our friends, family (or even our pastors) to pray for us either - we’re equally ‘worshipping’ them and detracting from our relationship with God by so doing. Are you seriously suggesting you’ve never asked prayers from anyone?

Scripture COMMANDS us to pray for others (hence it’s the ‘Our’ Father not the ‘MY’ Father - we’re automatically praying for others in saying it)

And Paul certainly asked for plenty of prayers for himself - you saying he didn’t know what he was on about and was ‘less-than’ in his relationship with God because he asked others for their prayers? Preposterous.

As for answers - of course I’ve had prayers to saints answered, in the affirmative mind you, in all sorts of ways great and small. There are plenty of threads on these forums testifying to saints who have answered posters prayers.

And I have received all sorts of additional benefits in my spiritual life as well - grown closer to Christ by developing a relationship with others who have been close to Him.

I wouldn’t keep praying to the saints if such prayer didn’t bear good fruit in terms of my relationship with God - I have brains enough for that. So do most all of us who pray to them.

no ma’am, that is not what i am saying at all.the bible points to jesus and him alone. there if you missed that i will say it again, the bible points to jesus from cover to cover, every page speaks his name.now if you know this, and you know him, then lift up your prayers to him. is he not the Diety before time? did not God Himself become our sacrifice?is He not sitting on the throne right now as we speak? then give honor and glory to him, and to him ALONE!