Intercessors other than Christ

[Contarini]

no ma’am, that is not what i am saying at all

But why not? No one is disputing that we should pray to Jesus. The question is whether others can pray for us, and whether it is appropriate to ask them to do so.

Edwin

 

[boppaid]

But why not? No one is disputing that we should pray to Jesus. The question is whether others can pray for us, and whether it is appropriate to ask them to do so.

Edwin

This prayer I quoted earlier does not simply ask Mary to pray for us. Read again.

Behold, O Mother of Perpetual Help, at thy feet a wretched sinner, who has recourse to thee and trusts in thee. O Mother of mercy, have pity on me; hear all men call thee the refuge and hope of sinners: be therefore my refuge and my hope (Shouldn’t we declare Christ our refuge and hope?). Help me for the love of Jesus Christ: hold out thy hand to a fallen wretch, who commends himself to thee and dedicates himself to be thy servant forever. I praise and thank God, who of His great mercy hath given me this confidence in thee, a sure pledge of my eternal salvation. Alas, it is only too true that in the past I have fallen miserably, because I did not come to thee. (How can not knowing Mary cause us to fall? If we know Christ as our savior, we can still fail because we don’t know Mary?) I know that with thy help I shall conquer; I know that thou wilt help me, if I commend myself to thee; but I am fearful lest in the occasions of sin I shall forget to call upon thee and so I shall be lost. This grace, then, do I ask of thee; for this I implore thee, as much as I can and know how to do; namely, that in the assaults of hell I may ever run to thy protection and may say to thee: Mary, help me; Mother of Perpetual Help, permit me not to lose my God. (I thought a poster on this thread said that don’t ever ask for grace nor do we receive grace from Mary?)
Hail Mary

O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant me ever to be able to call upon thy powerful name, since thy name is the help of the living and the salvation of the dying. Ah, Mary most pure, Mary most sweet, grant that thy name from this day forth may be to me the very breath of life. Dear Lady, delay not to come to my assistance whenever I call upon thee; for in all the temptations that assail me, in all the necessities that befall me, I will never leave off calling upon thee, ever repeating: Mary, Mary. What comfort, what sweetness, what confidence, what tenderness fills my soul at the sound of thy name, at the very thought of thee! I give thanks to our Lord, who for my sake hath given thee a name so sweet, so lovable, so mighty. But I am not content merely to speak thy name; I would utter it for very love of thee; it is my desire that love should ever remind me to name thee, Mother of Perpetual Help.

Hail Mary

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every grace that God grants us in our misery; it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul. Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the evil spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee. I fear only that through my own negligence I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance and the grace to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

This is where I get confused. In apologetics and debates like this I hear how we don’t pray TO THEM (saints, etc.) we simply ask them for their prayers. But then when I read actual Catholic prayers to saints & mary, it is clear we are praying TO THEM, doing more than simply asking for their prayers but asking them to actually GRANT US THINGS. I get so confused by this.

 

[meandean]

But why not? No one is disputing that we should pray to Jesus. The question is whether others can pray for us, and whether it is appropriate to ask them to do so.

Edwin

no , the question is who you are praying to, as if you need intersession like that. look at mathew 11:28.come unto me all you who are weary and i will give you rest. now did he say go to anybody else for help in heaven? but we are talking strickly about saints that have moved on from this world. while we are here, yes we are to pray for each other. but our prayers are not to each other but for each other. and they are to be lifted up to him.

 

[LilyM]

no ma’am, that is not what i am saying at all.the bible points to jesus and him alone. there if you missed that i will say it again, the bible points to jesus from cover to cover, every page speaks his name.now if you know this, and you know him, then lift up your prayers to him. is he not the Diety before time? did not God Himself become our sacrifice?is He not sitting on the throne right now as we speak? then give honor and glory to him, and to him ALONE!

That’s EXACTLY what you’re saying. ‘Zero prayers have been answered by the saints’ indeed - never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.

And for your futher information - we DO give honour and glory to Him and Him alone by praying for and with (and to) those He loves - those in heaven and on earth - and asking them to pray for us and with us. It’s entirely for His sake that we do so, therefore it is also entirely to His glory.

This is exactly how HE taught us to pray, like the friend who knocks on his friend’s door asking for bread. The saints are our heavenly friends too, ya know!

 

[LilyM]

no , the question is who you are praying to, as if you need intersession like that. look at mathew 11:28.come unto me all you who are weary and i will give you rest. now did he say go to anybody else for help in heaven? but we are talking strickly about saints that have moved on from this world. while we are here, yes we are to pray for each other. but our prayers are not to each other but for each other. and they are to be lifted up to him.

Hate to break it to you, but “pray” means ASK. So if you ask someone, earthly or heavenly, to approach God with you, or indeed for anything else. then you are indeed PRAYING to that person.

Court documents still use the term ‘prayer for relief’ or ‘prayer for remedy’ in exactly this sense - the people drawing up those documents are ASKING the court for something.

So you pray to your pastor all the time, bud. And to your family and friends as well.

 

[boppaid]

Hate to break it to you, but “pray” means ASK…

Where did you get this definition? Here is the definition I found:

pray /preɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prey] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object) 1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
5. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
6. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
7. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
–verb (used without object) 8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

---

[Origin: 1250–1300; ME preien < OF preier ≪ L precārī to beg, pray, deriv. of prex (s. prec-) prayer; akin to OE fricgan, D vragen, G fragen, Goth fraihnan to ask]

dictionary.reference.com/browse/pray

I pray prayers of praise all the time…often, never asking for a thing. Is it not still prayer?

 

[meandean]

Hate to break it to you, but “pray” means ASK. So if you ask someone, earthly or heavenly, to approach God with you, or indeed for anything else. then you are indeed PRAYING to that person.

Court documents still use the term ‘prayer for relief’ or ‘prayer for remedy’ in exactly this sense - the people drawing up those documents are ASKING the court for something.

So you pray to your pastor all the time, bud. And to your family and friends as well.

it’s as though you really don’t know him.because if you did, he would be your everything.romans 10: 1-4, phillipians 3:1-7, acts 19: 1-10. this is what i’m starting to believe with your words. do you know him or just things about him?

 

[Apryl]

so how many of your friendly saints answered your prayers? never mind, i already know. zero. absolutely zero. so this is what it comes down to bro, either jesus becomes your everything in everything, or he isn’t anything because your still filling the holes with anything. worship the creator or creation. you choose…

Please find me the Catholics (and not the Crazy People that claim to be Catholics, because there are Crazy People of every cloth) that ever claimed that a Saint answered their prayers.

Even those that say that they were the beneficiary of a miracle because of a Saint, I don’t think any have ever claimed it was the DOING of a Saint that had the miracle.

So, since no one is claiming that the Saints answer the prayers, that’s an unanswerable question.

Since we’ve made it clear that Saints (and Mary, who I don’t lump with the saints, personally) don’t answer our prayers, but rather God, who alone answers prayers, can we move to another bone of conjecture?

… why are you so hung up on Saints answering prayers?

And the ONLY worship that a true Catholic does is of God. But we don’t just worship the creator. We worship the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier. God in three persons. The Trinity.

Please tell me that you believe in the Trinity

 

[LilyM]

Where did you get this definition? Here is the definition I found:

It’s right there - to “make earnest petition to a person” is just a fancy way of saying to ask them REALLY seriously Note it’s TO A PERSON - any person. Proof positive that prayer isn’t reserved for God alone!

I pray prayers of praise all the time…often, never asking for a thing. Is it not still prayer?

Course it is. Prayer isn’t restricted to asking, it can be praise and thanks, can be contrition, can be regular conversation. But asking IS prayer.

 

[LilyM]

it’s as though you really don’t know him.because if you did, he would be your everything.romans 10: 1-4, phillipians 3:1-7, acts 19: 1-10. this is what i’m starting to believe with your words. do you know him or just things about him?

Absolutely I know him. I know Himself - and I know Him through those He loves and who love Him (the heavenly saints) too. We’re all made in His image, remember. It’s not a question of loving either God or His creatures, it’s about loving both God and his creatures. My relationship with the saints only enhances my love of and devotion to God.

I can have a husband and three children and each blessed one of them can literally be everything to me without it detracting from my love for any of the others. If anything my love for one increases my love for the others.

See you haven’t learned about love yet. It’s not a pie where everyone has to get only a piece - it’s a muscle. You exercise it and it grows and expands in all directions. So I love parents and siblings, nieces and nephews, the saints and the angels - AND all of this love only increases my love of God and intimacy with Him too!

 

[Apryl]

It’s not a pie where everyone has to get only a piece - it’s a muscle. You exercise it and it grows and expands in all directions. So I love parents and siblings, nieces and nephews, the saints and the angels - AND all of this love only increases my love of God and intimacy with Him too!

Beautifully stated!

My God is a jealous God, but not a selfish God. If He were selfish, how could He have given His only Son to die for my sins?

 

[meandean]

Please find me the Catholics (and not the Crazy People that claim to be Catholics, because there are Crazy People of every cloth) that ever claimed that a Saint answered their prayers.

Even those that say that they were the beneficiary of a miracle because of a Saint, I don’t think any have ever claimed it was the DOING of a Saint that had the miracle.

So, since no one is claiming that the Saints answer the prayers, that’s an unanswerable question.

Since we’ve made it clear that Saints (and Mary, who I don’t lump with the saints, personally) don’t answer our prayers, but rather God, who alone answers prayers, can we move to another bone of conjecture?

… why are you so hung up on Saints answering prayers?

And the ONLY worship that a true Catholic does is of God. But we don’t just worship the creator. We worship the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier. God in three persons. The Trinity.

Please tell me that you believe in the Trinity

hi apryl, many of the catholic faith would disagree with you. besides, it is not necessary to find them, however, it is necessary to seek the truth in everything.(believe me, you will find them when theres any kind of challenge), and when you find Him, everything that we think, say, and do brings Him glory. He needs to be our all consuming LORD where there is no dirty little corners, everything including our faulty foundation, must go.so if you want a reference look at saul of tarsus in phillipians chapter 3. did he not have "the right birth?"did he not have “the right national heritage?” was he was he not "of the highest aristcracy, most noble, the most respectable persons of israel?"did he not have "the right language and customs?“did he not have” the right religion?"how about his passion for his religion?and was he not faultless? quite the perfect man, wouldn’t you agree? yet he counted all this rubbish that he might know jesus and Him alone. so when you ask is it necessary to be HUNG UP ON SAINTS ANSWERING PRAYERS, I’m going to lets go to 2timothy 3 :16.all scripture is profitable in 4 ways,(1)doctrine=thats what is right,(2)reproof=thats what is not right,(3)correction=how to get right,(4)instruction=how to stay right.so if i make you uncomfortable, i apologize. but if the word of God makes you uncomfortale, good. we all should be.and yes, i believe in a triune GOD.

 

[Apryl]

hi apryl, many of the catholic faith would disagree with you. .

On what point? I posted a lot of stuff in that last entry.

 

[boppaid]

It’s right there - to “make earnest petition to a person” is just a fancy way of saying to ask them REALLY seriously Note it’s TO A PERSON - any person. Proof positive that prayer isn’t reserved for God alone!

Course it is. Prayer isn’t restricted to asking, it can be praise and thanks, can be contrition, can be regular conversation. But asking IS prayer.

Oh, right. I agree. But where I get hung up is that when we offer Mary or the saints praise, we are then praying to them. Correct?

 

[Apryl]

Oh, right. I agree. But where I get hung up is that when we offer Mary or the saints praise, we are then praying to them. Correct?

So when my kid has a great report card, I’m praying to him?

Please elaborate.

 

[boppaid]

So when my kid has a great report card, I’m praying to him?

Please elaborate.

Well, no. I’m not understanding the connect here. Do you see that the same as praising Mary? When you ask your kid for something, are you praying to them? (Are you the person that said that asking for something is prayer? I’m sorry, I can’t remember.)

As a Catholic, I just struggle with this SO MUCH.

 

[Apryl]

Well, no. I’m not understanding the connect here. Do you see that the same as praising Mary? When you ask your kid for something, are you praying to them? (Are you the person that said that asking for something is prayer? I’m sorry, I can’t remember.)

That’s just it: I don’t think that asking is the same as praying. Although, praying is often asking.

I don’t consider prayers to Mary and the Saints as ‘prayers’, but as praying … wow, talk about splitting hairs, hunh?

As a Catholic, I just struggle with this SO MUCH.

I don’t think the problem is the Catholic, as much as the English!

 

[boppaid]

Thanks for clarifying.

So, is it the Church’s stance, then, that we do not pray to mary? We are just asking? I thought that the Hail Mary, for example, was considered a prayer. The nuns at school always called it “learning your prayers”, and the Hail Mary was always one of them.

Maybe part of my problem is that I don’t even understand the Church’s position on this.

It looks like praying to me. It was called prayers by the nuns at school. It feels like praying. Is it praying?

 

[mercygate]

Thanks for clarifying.

So, is it the Church’s stance, then, that we do not pray to mary? We are just asking? I thought that the Hail Mary, for example, was considered a prayer. The nuns at school always called it “learning your prayers”, and the Hail Mary was always one of them.

Maybe part of my problem is that I don’t even understand the Church’s position on this.

It looks like praying to me. It was called prayers by the nuns at school. It feels like praying. Is it praying?

It IS praying “to” Mary but we do not address her as God, pray to her as God, esteem her as God; if anybody does, he is outside the bounds of theological . We honor her, but we do not honor her as God. She is not God. She (and all the saints) are human, although they are perfected in their humanity, which is quite different from the fallen humanity we experience here on earth.

Our Orthodox friends refer to “theosis” as our destiny . . . coming into the “divinity” of our humanity – as St. Peter says: living in the spirit, like God…

The “problem” is not that we “pray to Mary and the Saints”. Prayer is part of worship but it is not complete worship. Perfect worship must include sacrifice.

Intercessory prayer is only one kind of prayer: asking for things. There are many other kinds of prayer (meditation, contemplation, praise, thanksgiving, confession, liturgical prayer). When the saints pray for us, their stature in “righteousness” gives their prayer the advantage, as the Epistle of James tells us, of being “the prayer of a righteous man” that “availeth much.”

 

[meandean]

It IS praying “to” Mary but we do not address her as God, pray to her as God, esteem her as God; if anybody does, he is outside the bounds of theological . We honor her, but we do not honor her as God. She is not God. She (and all the saints) are human, although they are perfected in their humanity, which is quite different from the fallen humanity we experience here on earth.

Our Orthodox friends refer to “theosis” as our destiny . . . coming into the “divinity” of our humanity – as St. Peter says: living in the spirit, like God…

The “problem” is not that we “pray to Mary and the Saints”. Prayer is part of worship but it is not complete worship. Perfect worship must include sacrifice.

Intercessory prayer is only one kind of prayer: asking for things. There are many other kinds of prayer (meditation, contemplation, praise, thanksgiving, confession, liturgical prayer). When the saints pray for us, their stature in “righteousness” gives their prayer the advantage, as the Epistle of James tells us, of being “the prayer of a righteous man” that “availeth much.”

i’m finding it hard to understand. i was just in the marian devotions and one said about the glories of mary chap 6, at the command of mary all obey, even god. she is omnipotent. what in the world is this?