Intercommunion

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Wasn’t it Thomas Aquinas, considered a Saint by the Roman Catholic Church, who also taught against the Immaculate Conception while still believing in Mary’s Sinlessness? Sounds a little Orthodox to me. Yet he’s considered a Saint not a Heretic.

Perhaps it’s the same thing, the Catholic Church doesn’t consider St. Thomas Aquinas a Heretic and they don’t consider the Orthodox Church Heretical either?
I’m sorry Christy, but this is something I never understood growing up in Catholic school. Why is the Orthodox church considered schismatic and NOT heretical?

[St] Thomas Aquinas was not considered a heretic because he wrote prior to the definition of the Immaculate Conception (similar case to [St] Antoninus, Archbishop of Florence).

Do the Catholic truly believe what Pius IX said about the IC?

“if anyone shall dare – which God forbid! – to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart.” (Ineffabilis Deus; “The Definition” papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm )

Or how about what he wrote about Papal Infallibility?

“So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema” (Vatican 1 Council Session 4; Chapter 4 “On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff” [18 July 1870] ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM#6 )

Do these passages not apply to the Orthodox? If the Catholic Church truly believed these words, I feel they would have the temerity to call the Orthodox Church “heretical”. These are the same descriptives used for the definition of Christ being God, the 2 natures of Christ and the 2 wills of Christ.

I do not understand why “Closed Communion” is not applied to the Orthodox, after all we apply it to the Catholics. Ofcourse there is economia in some cases, but generally we dont give communion to Catholics.

I think the parish that Ghosty is referring to is a Catholic parish, is that right?

God bless.
 
Show where the Orthodox Churches definitively deny the Immaculate Conception, and you’ll have a case for raising the question of heresy. Until then it’s merely a theological opinion either way among the Eastern Orthodox, even if the majority favor the idea that Mary was conceived without God’s Divine Grace. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
I’d say the thing with the Orthodox was that issues such as the Immaculate Conception weren’t defined dogma at the time of the split - you can’t call someone a heretic merely because they didn’t believe (or not in such terms) in the 1000s something that would only become defined dogma 800 years later, can you? Same goes for Papal Infallibility. 🤷

It may well be that even transubstantiation wasn’t defined at the time - then again, the Orthodox don’t definitively reject transubstantiation, they just feel it’s not necessary to categorise what happens at consecration in those terms.

On the other hand they CAN be called schismatics (or in Monty Python’s wonderful term ‘SPLITTERS!’) because they DID reject Roman authority. To reject Roman authority makes one a schismatic, not a heretic. One is only a heretic who rejects dogma.

Case in point - SSPV believe every scrap of the same dogma that Rome does, but, being sedevacantist, have cut themselves off from communion with Rome and can be called schismatics but not heretics.
 
I’d say the thing with the Orthodox was that issues such as the Immaculate Conception weren’t defined dogma at the time of the split - you can’t call someone a heretic merely because they didn’t believe (or not in such terms) in the 1000s something that would only become defined dogma 800 years later, can you? Same goes for Papal Infallibility. 🤷

It may well be that even transubstantiation wasn’t defined at the time - then again, the Orthodox don’t definitively reject transubstantiation, they just feel it’s not necessary to categorise what happens at consecration in those terms.

On the other hand they CAN be called schismatics (or in Monty Python’s wonderful term ‘SPLITTERS!’) because they DID reject Roman authority. To reject Roman authority makes one a schismatic, not a heretic. One is only a heretic who rejects dogma.

Case in point - SSPV believe every scrap of the same dogma that Rome does, but, being sedevacantist, have cut themselves off from communion with Rome and can be called schismatics but not heretics.
I should of explained. This logic does not make sense.

Is it not Roman Catholic belief that Origen was a heretic? he was declared a heretic almost 300 years after he had died along with a few others. Also Patriarch Sergius of Constantinople was condemned a heretic almost 50 years after he died. These are just 2 examples, but there are well over 30 examples.

Why is Thomas Acquinas not regarded as a heretic? Why Bonaventure and Antoninus not regarded as heretics?

I agree with you Ghosty that the Immaculate Conception is not exactly condemned by the Orthodox. But Papal Infallibility was vehemently rejected and called “heretical” and “ultramontanist” by the Patriarchal encyclical of 1895 and a series of pan-orthodox councils held in Constantinople in the 20th century. [these can not be just ignored]

I do not understand why Catholics have opened communion to those which they should technically be calling heretics. I still remember I was offended back at school when the priest told us “If you are Orthodox you are welcome to partake of communion” - not because I understood any theology, but because I was taught by my own church (after my conversion from atheism) that I shouldn’t.

Thankyou for all your comments.

I was wondering is it agreed that it would be sinful for a Roman Catholic to partake of the Orthodox Eucharist in normal circumstances?

God bless.
 
Is it not Roman Catholic belief that Origen was a heretic?
No, it’s not. He’s regarded as having taught things which were ambiguous and which led others to heresy later. There’s a heresy named after him, but he’s not understood to be a heretic per se.

The Eastern Orthodox are still not viewed as heretics, even with their rejection of the definitions of Vatican I, because dialogue has still not been closed over the issue. Even today, with meetings like the one at Ravenna, we are discussing what “Papal Primacy” means. It’s hard to say that someone is a heretic when the proper understanding of a Dogma hasn’t been communicated yet.

We still hear constant misunderstandings of the Papacy from the Eastern Orthodox, especially when they’re stating why they reject it. Most of the time they are rejecting something that the Catholic Church rejects as well, so how can we be certain that no understanding can be reached? Remember also that we’ve (both Eastern Orthodox and Catholics) had an incredible and eye-opening groundbreaking dialogue with the Oriental Orthodox over the past fifty years, and this has shown us that sometimes “heretics” really are defending the same Faith using different terms. From the Catholic perspective, this question remains open with the Eastern Orthodox, until the Eastern Orthodox definitively reject any Catholic understanding of the Papacy.
I was wondering is it agreed that it would be sinful for a Roman Catholic to partake of the Orthodox Eucharist in normal circumstances?
No, it would not be sinful for any Catholic to partake of the Eucharist in an Orthodox Liturgy (and I stress “the Eucharist in an Orthodox Liturgy”, as opposed to “the Orthodox Eucharist”) unless in doing so they were intending to stand against the Catholic Church. If I, or a Roman Catholic, happen to be at a non-Catholic Apostolic Liturgy and I’m invited to receive Christ, I’m hardly denying my Church and beliefs.

Of course this is my opinion; there is no definitive “ruling” on the matter beyond the level of individual bishops. The relevant Canons are either vague (in the case of the Latins) or completely allowing (in the case of a number of Eastern Churches) that I can’t see any reason to suspect that it would be sinful, apart from an individual Bishop’s judgement.

Peace and God bless!
 
I should of explained. This logic does not make sense.

Is it not Roman Catholic belief that Origen was a heretic? he was declared a heretic almost 300 years after he had died along with a few others. Also Patriarch Sergius of Constantinople was condemned a heretic almost 50 years after he died. These are just 2 examples, but there are well over 30 examples.

Why is Thomas Acquinas not regarded as a heretic? Why Bonaventure and Antoninus not regarded as heretics?

I agree with you Ghosty that the Immaculate Conception is not exactly condemned by the Orthodox. But Papal Infallibility was vehemently rejected and called “heretical” and “ultramontanist” by the Patriarchal encyclical of 1895 and a series of pan-orthodox councils held in Constantinople in the 20th century. [these can not be just ignored]

I do not understand why Catholics have opened communion to those which they should technically be calling heretics. I still remember I was offended back at school when the priest told us “If you are Orthodox you are welcome to partake of communion” - not because I understood any theology, but because I was taught by my own church (after my conversion from atheism) that I shouldn’t.

Thankyou for all your comments.

I was wondering is it agreed that it would be sinful for a Roman Catholic to partake of the Orthodox Eucharist in normal circumstances?

God bless.
Hang on - the question is, upon what grounds was Origen called a heretic? Upon what grounds were the other 30 called heretics? What specifically was it about what they taught that was condemned? You’ve read the documents, you tell us.

Possibly they DID disbelieve OTHER things which were dogmatically binding on both East and West at the time - maybe they were Pelagians, Arians, Docetists, Nestorians or what have you. If so then there is legitimate grounds then and now for calling them heretics.

Or perhaps it was the filioque issue - which from Rome’s perspective seems to have been based more upon a misunderstanding between Latin and Greek versions of the Creed than any real substantive dispute. A dispute that time has smoothed over to some extent at least (to the point where it is no longer considered heretic on Rome’s part to hold as the Orthodox do about the filioque).

Aquinas and Bonaventure, on the other hand, were not at all required to believe in the Immaculate Conception - it was not settled dogma at that time. 🤷 So of course they weren’t heretics. Any more than anyone pre-Ephesus who didn’t believe that Mary was the Mother of God. Heresy at least means disbelieving in an already dogmatically defined area of faith - I don’t see where Aquinas or Bonaventure did so.

As for Papal Infallibility - well, if Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras saw fit to mutually remove the anathemas that had mutually been placed upon Orthodox and Catholics, then we can trust that they did so for good and sufficient reason, and if we’re unsatisfied can always examine the reasons they gave for doing so.
 
Hang on - the question is, upon what grounds was Origen called a heretic? Upon what grounds were the other 30 called heretics? What specifically was it about what they taught that was condemned? You’ve read the documents, you tell us.

Possibly they DID disbelieve OTHER things which were dogmatically binding on both East and West at the time - maybe they were Pelagians, Arians, Docetists, Nestorians or what have you. If so then there is legitimate grounds then and now for calling them heretics.

Or perhaps it was the filioque issue - which from Rome’s perspective seems to have been based more upon a misunderstanding between Latin and Greek versions of the Creed than any real substantive dispute. A dispute that time has smoothed over to some extent at least (to the point where it is no longer considered heretic on Rome’s part to hold as the Orthodox do about the filioque).

Aquinas and Bonaventure, on the other hand, were not at all required to believe in the Immaculate Conception - it was not settled dogma at that time. 🤷 So of course they weren’t heretics. Any more than anyone pre-Ephesus who didn’t believe that Mary was the Mother of God. Heresy at least means disbelieving in an already dogmatically defined area of faith - I don’t see where Aquinas or Bonaventure did so.

As for Papal Infallibility - well, if Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras saw fit to mutually remove the anathemas that had mutually been placed upon Orthodox and Catholics, then we can trust that they did so for good and sufficient reason, and if we’re unsatisfied can always examine the reasons they gave for doing so.
Origen was condemned as a heretic by the 5th Ecumenical Council for teaching Apokastasis, he denied the real resurrection of the body, universal salvation and preexistance of souls - and many others (there were 15 condemnations on Origen at this council).

“If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and [if anyone does not equally anathematize] all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned: let him be anathema.” (5th Ecumenical council; THE CAPITULA OF THE COUNCIL act 314 section XI; taken from fordham.edu/halsall/basis/const2.html )

The anathemas against origen can be found here: ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html

If it is possible to condemn Origen, shouldn’t the Catholics be consistant and condemn Acquinas - the great doctor of the church? After all Origen was considered a great teacher before he was condemned as a heretic! I still stand in awe that he was head of a theological faculty at the age of 18. :eek:
 
Origen was condemned as a heretic by the 5th Ecumenical Council for teaching Apokastasis, he denied the real resurrection of the body, universal salvation and preexistance of souls - and many others (there were 15 condemnations on Origen at this council).

“If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and [if anyone does not equally anathematize] all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned: let him be anathema.” (5th Ecumenical council; THE CAPITULA OF THE COUNCIL act 314 section XI; taken from fordham.edu/halsall/basis/const2.html )

The anathemas against origen can be found here: ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html

If it is possible to condemn Origen, shouldn’t the Catholics be consistant and condemn Acquinas - the great doctor of the church? After all Origen was considered a great teacher before he was condemned as a heretic! I still stand in awe that he was head of a theological faculty at the age of 18. :eek:
Being intelligent or a brilliant intellectual doesn’t automatically make you right. Most all of the major heretics were good thinkers and good teachers, just that they were wrong and knowingly went against Christ’s own truth as taught by the Church. The points you’ve mentioned were settled doctrine before Origen’s time, he couldn’t rightly dispute them and to reject what he rejected was to reject both the Apostles and Christ.

And I’d like to know on precisely what grounds Aquinas could be condemned, according to you? What precise heresy (going against the proclaimed and settled dogma of his time) did he teach?
 
I agree with you Ghosty that the Immaculate Conception is not exactly condemned by the Orthodox. But Papal Infallibility was vehemently rejected and called “heretical” and “ultramontanist” by the Patriarchal encyclical of 1895 and a series of pan-orthodox councils held in Constantinople in the 20th century. [these can not be just ignored]

I do not understand why Catholics have opened communion to those which they should technically be calling heretics. I still remember I was offended back at school when the priest told us “If you are Orthodox you are welcome to partake of communion” - not because I understood any theology, but because I was taught by my own church (after my conversion from atheism) that I shouldn’t.
There are two reasons:
  1. The Church assumes at best invincible ignorance of actual Catholic doctrines/dogmas. Thus, the Orthodox cannot be charged with the actual sin of heresy from the Catholic perspective.
  2. The Church asserts that there is no actual disagreement between the Orthodox positions and the Catholic positions. Of course, EO are more likely to highlight the differences, but the Catholic Church on almost all points of doctrinal/dogmatic disagreement believes that these points can be overcome by a willingness to understand each other. The Catholic Church believes that on almost all points of doctrinal/dogmatic disagreement, the disagreement is primarily if not completely SUBjective, and not at all OBjective.
Personally, I’ve never read of an actual rejection of the dogma of papal infallibility. I have indeed read many MISconceptions of the dogma, and it is on the basis of these MISconceptions that papal infallibility is rejected. But the Catholic Church would not, does not, and cannot blame individuals for rejecting her because of misconceptions.
I was wondering is it agreed that it would be sinful for a Roman Catholic to partake of the Orthodox Eucharist in normal circumstances?
As a few have indicated to you, it is NOT agreed. Eastern Catholics sometimes view attendance at an EO DL as having a real spiritual benefit. Personally, barring any actual DISbelief in Catholic dogma, and given the fact that the EO have a valid Eucharist in the eyes of the Catholic Church, I do not see how it can be sinful. I would, however, be cautious about the possible scandal it can produce, and causing scandal IS a sin. However, if the Catholic who communes at the EO DL makes it known that he/she is fully Catholic, believing all the dogmas of the Faith, and the EO priest permits this despite, then I do not see what scandal it could cause on the Catholic side (it might cause scandal on the EO side, but I don’t think that is your question).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
There are two reasons:
  1. The Church assumes at best invincible ignorance of actual Catholic doctrines/dogmas. Thus, the Orthodox cannot be charged with the actual sin of heresy from the Catholic perspective.
  2. The Church asserts that there is no actual disagreement between the Orthodox positions and the Catholic positions. Of course, EO are more likely to highlight the differences, but the Catholic Church on almost all points of doctrinal/dogmatic disagreement believes that these points can be overcome by a willingness to understand each other. The Catholic Church believes that on almost all points of doctrinal/dogmatic disagreement, the disagreement is primarily if not completely SUBjective, and not at all OBjective.
Personally, I’ve never read of an actual rejection of the dogma of papal infallibility. I have indeed read many MISconceptions of the dogma, and it is on the basis of these MISconceptions that papal infallibility is rejected. But the Catholic Church would not, does not, and cannot blame individuals for rejecting her because of misconceptions.

Blessings,
Marduk
“XVIII. These facts we recall with sorrow of heart, inasmuch as the Papal Church, though she now acknowledges the spuriousness and forged character of those decrees on which her excessive claims are grounded, not only stubbornly refuses to come back to the canons and decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, but even in the expiring years of the nineteenth century has widened the existing gulf by officially proclaiming, to the astonishment of the Christian world, that the Bishop of Rome is even infallible. The orthodox Eastern and catholic Church of Christ, with the exception of the Son and Word of God, who was ineffably made man, knows no one infallible upon earth. Even the Apostle Peter himself, whose successor the Pope thinks himself to be, thrice denied the Lord, and was twice rebuked by the Apostle Paul, as not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel. [24] Afterwards the Pope Liberius, in the fourth century, subscribed an Arian confession; and likewise Zosimus, in the fifth century, approved an heretical confession, denying original sin. Virgilius, in the sixth century, was condemned for wrong opinions by the fifth Council; and Honorius, having fallen into the Monothelite heresy, was condemned in the seventh century by the sixth Ecumenical Council as a heretic, and the popes who succeeded him acknowledged and accepted his condemnation.” (The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895: A Reply to the Papal Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, on Reunion; XVIII)

“XX. In vain, therefore, does the Bishop of Rome send us to the sources that we may seek diligently for what our forefathers believed and what the first period of Christianity delivered to us. In these sources we, the orthodox, find the old and divinely-transmitted doctrines, to which we carefully hold fast to the present time, and nowhere do we find the innovations which later times of empty mindedness brought forth in the West, and which the Papal Church having adopted retains till this very day. The orthodox Eastern Church then justly glories in Christ as being the Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils and of the first nine centuries of Christianity, and therefore the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of Christ, ‘the pillar and ground of the truth’; [25] but the present Roman Church is the Church of innovations, of the falsification of the writings of the Church Fathers, and of the misinterpretation of the Holy Scripture and of the decrees of the holy councils, for which she has reasonably and justly been disowned, and is still disowned, so far as she remains in her error. ‘For better is a praiseworthy war than a peace which separates from God,’ as Gregory of Nazianzus also says.” (The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895: A Reply to the Papal Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, on Reunion; XX)

I also direct you to an article written by convert from Roman Catholicism T.R. Valentine on papal infallibility:
geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/trv_infallibility.html

Also in the book by Clark Carlton “The Truth: What every Roman Catholic should know about the Orthodox Church”, he addresses papal infallibility quite well.

I have never heard of any Orthodox Christian who ever accepted papal infallibility - nor any Orthodox Christian who did not regard it as a heresy.

I have no idea what you mean by disagreements being subjective and not objective.

In regards to your second point (accusation), I suggest you read Roman Catholic apologists such as James Likoudis or Dave Armstrong.

God bless.
 
Ematouk: The problem with calling the Eastern Orthodox heretics, based on the paragraphs you quoted, is that they are not dealing with what Papal Infallibility actually is. This can be seen by the listing of Popes that have erred, and erred grievously, in the first paragraph; none of their actions go against Papal Infallibility, and they are all remembered and recognized by the Catholic Church as having erred, or even as having been heretics.

If the Orthodox rejection of Papal Infallibility is based on such obvious misconceptions, then it’s hard to call that rejection heretical; the Catholic Church also rejects what the Eastern Orthodox Church rejects, at least according to what was said in that Patriarchal Encyclical. That encyclical was arguing against impeccability and inerrancy, not against Papal Infallibility as defined in the Catholic Church.

Peace and God bless!
 
Dear brother ematouk,
“XVIII. These facts we recall with sorrow of heart, inasmuch as the Papal Church, though she now acknowledges the spuriousness and forged character of those decrees on which her excessive claims are grounded, not only stubbornly refuses to come back to the canons and decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, but even in the expiring years of the nineteenth century has widened the existing gulf by officially proclaiming, to the astonishment of the Christian world, that the Bishop of Rome is even infallible. The orthodox Eastern and catholic Church of Christ, with the exception of the Son and Word of God, who was ineffably made man, knows no one infallible upon earth. Even the Apostle Peter himself, whose successor the Pope thinks himself to be, thrice denied the Lord, and was twice rebuked by the Apostle Paul, as not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel. [24] Afterwards the Pope Liberius, in the fourth century, subscribed an Arian confession; and likewise Zosimus, in the fifth century, approved an heretical confession, denying original sin. Virgilius, in the sixth century, was condemned for wrong opinions by the fifth Council; and Honorius, having fallen into the Monothelite heresy, was condemned in the seventh century by the sixth Ecumenical Council as a heretic, and the popes who succeeded him acknowledged and accepted his condemnation.” (The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895: A Reply to the Papal Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, on Reunion; XVIII)

“XX. In vain, therefore, does the Bishop of Rome send us to the sources that we may seek diligently for what our forefathers believed and what the first period of Christianity delivered to us. In these sources we, the orthodox, find the old and divinely-transmitted doctrines, to which we carefully hold fast to the present time, and nowhere do we find the innovations which later times of empty mindedness brought forth in the West, and which the Papal Church having adopted retains till this very day. The orthodox Eastern Church then justly glories in Christ as being the Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils and of the first nine centuries of Christianity, and therefore the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of Christ, ‘the pillar and ground of the truth’; [25] but the present Roman Church is the Church of innovations, of the falsification of the writings of the Church Fathers, and of the misinterpretation of the Holy Scripture and of the decrees of the holy councils, for which she has reasonably and justly been disowned, and is still disowned, so far as she remains in her error. ‘For better is a praiseworthy war than a peace which separates from God,’ as Gregory of Nazianzus also says.” (The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895: A Reply to the Papal Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, on Reunion; XX)

I also direct you to an article written by convert from Roman Catholicism T.R. Valentine on papal infallibility:
geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/trv_infallibility.html

Also in the book by Clark Carlton “The Truth: What every Roman Catholic should know about the Orthodox Church”, he addresses papal infallibility quite well.

I have never heard of any Orthodox Christian who ever accepted papal infallibility - nor any Orthodox Christian who did not regard it as a heresy.

I have no idea what you mean by disagreements being subjective and not objective.

In regards to your second point (accusation), I suggest you read Roman Catholic apologists such as James Likoudis or Dave Armstrong.
As brother Ghosty pointed out, misconceptions abound in the Patriarchal encyclicals you gave, as well as in the link you provided. If someone has not addressed these misconceptions more fully by Sunday, I will attempt to point them out more explicitly at that time.

To repeat, I have not seen Orthodox authors who reject the dogma of papal infallibility for what it actually is.

To explain, I use the terms “subjective” and “objective” to highlight the fact that many reject the Catholic Church for what they THINK it is (subjective), not for what it ACTUALLY is (objective).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother ematouk

I thought it best to address the misconceptions of this encyclical now, for I really may have not have time for it this weekend.
"XVIII. Even the Apostle Peter himself, whose successor the Pope thinks himself to be, thrice denied the Lord,

Peter had not yet been given the charism of infallibility at this time. The occurence does not affect the issue of infallibility. In fact, Jesus indicates to him that He would give Peter a unique and special prayer to be the confirmer of the brethren AFTER the denial.(See Luke 22)
and was twice rebuked by the Apostle Paul, as not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel.
It was only once, and “walking uprightly” refers to impeccability. This situation does not affect the issue of infallibility.
Afterwards the Pope Liberius, in the fourth century, subscribed an Arian confession;
Pope Liberius, according to Pope St. Athanasius’ defense of him, indicated that Pope Liberius did this UNDER DURESS. In any case, upon being free of his exile, he immediately repudiated what he was previously FORCED to sign. This does not even come close to affecting the issue of infallibility.
and likewise Zosimus,in the fifth century, approved an heretical confession, denying original sin.
According to holy Augustine, Pope St, Zosimus was DECEIVED by the Pelagian priests into believing that they were orthodox. At NO time did St. Zosimus approve a heretical confession. It was not a matter of judging a doctrine, but rather a matter of determining if the priests under consideration actually held to the Pelagian doctrine. In effect, it was an issue of discipline. The occasion, once again, does not even come close to affecting the issue of infallibility. Please read about the situation from the writings of St. Augustine. The Patriarch’s claims that Zosimus approved the Pelagian doctrine is an unadulterated falsehood.
Virgilius, in the sixth century, was condemned for wrong opinions by the fifth Council;
His wrong opinions were not a matter of doctrine, but on whether certain persons should be judged as heretics. Please read the Acts of the Council, and you will discover that the Council Fathers themselves mainatined the orthodoxy of Pope Vigilius. The issue was a matter of discipline. Once again, the situation does not affect in the least the issue of infallibility.
and Honorius, having fallen into the Monothelite heresy, was condemned in the seventh century by the sixth Ecumenical Council as a heretic,
This is debatable, to say the least. I would side with St. Maximos who defended Pope Honorius against those who attempted to use him as support for the Monothelite heresy. Ecum Councils can err in their condemnations of persons (though not in regards to doctrine). I am blessed to have lived in an era when the orthodoxy of Pope St.Dioscorus has been vindicated. I hope I live to see the day when Pope Honorius is vindicated as well.
and the popes who succeeded him acknowledged and accepted his condemnation.
His condemnation, yes, but not the accusations of formal heresy. Anathemas abound, but they are, as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, based on a failure to to perform his pastoral duties.
I also direct you to an article written by convert from Roman Catholicism T.R. Valentine on papal infallibility:
geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/trv_infallibility.html
If I have time, I will address the misconceptions contained in this link this Sunday. Otherwise, it will have to wait till next week. I would appreciate a reminder at that time if you are still interested in the issue.
Also in the book by Clark Carlton “The Truth: What every Roman Catholic should know about the Orthodox Church”, he addresses papal infallibility quite well.
I’ve not personally read his works, but I know of EO who criticize Carlton for bringing in his virulent anti-Catholicism into Eastern Orthodoxy. So I wouldn’t give a penny to buy his books.
I have never heard of any Orthodox Christian who ever accepted papal infallibility - nor any Orthodox Christian who did not regard it as a heresy.
Once again, if they reject it based on misconceptions, the Catholic Church would not regard them as heretics, for they are rejecting misconceptions, not what the Church actually teaches.
In regards to your second point (accusation), I suggest you read Roman Catholic apologists such as James Likoudis or Dave Armstrong.
I did not come into the Catholic Church reading apologetic material, but only source material from the Councils and the early Church. I do not feel the need to read these authors. If they feel the EO are in error, that is their personal opinion, and is not the official position of the Catholic Magisterium.

Blessings,
Marduk​
 
Dear brother ematouk,

Here are the problems I have found (with accompanying refutations) with Valentine’s piece. Unfortunately, I found a problem in almost every paragraph from Valentine, so this criticism will span several posts:
But, if one were to grant absolute authority over the Church to an individual, it would be necessary, even essential, for that person to have the same infallibility on a personal basis in order to prevent that person from imposing an incorrect teaching on the Church as a whole. And this is precisely what the Vatican has done with its pope: it has made him the Church’s head and thus needed to give that head infallibility.
From the get-go, Valentine’s analysis of papal infallibility is fraught with error. First of all, the Vatican Fathers explicitly rejected the use of the word “absolute” in preparing the decree on Infallibility – for in fact, there are many limits to papal infallibility. That itself should indicate to the fair-minded reader that we are dealing here with a false interpretation of papal infallibility, not what the Vatican Council itself taught. Thus, Valentine’s syllogism that absolute authority necessitates infallibility fails miserably from the outset.

Second, the Pope does not possess infallibility “on a personal basis.” Infallibility is not invested in the person who is Pope, but in the office of the Pope. It is the difference between saying Simon is infallible and Peter is infallible. In fact, Simon was NOT infallible, though indeed Peter – in his special and unique responsibility as the rock on whom the Church would be built (not to be falsely dichotomized from his confession, on the one hand, nor from Christ Himself, on the other) – was infallible. If perchance a Pope retires from his office, he would not retain infallibility (which could be done if it was “personal”) because he has left the OFFICE. Thus, Valentine is simply wrong claiming that infallibility is possessed “on a personal basis.”
the Roman papacy underwent a tremendous transformation, becoming something it had not previously been. Preludes to this transformation included Old Rome’s isolation from the other patriarchates which led to a loss of the communal understanding of the Church and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and subsequent takeover by Germanic tribes of all the power structures — including the papacy by the early part of the eleventh century. The papacy became one of several political centres in Western Europe seeking to expand its power at the expense of others. One of the focal points of this struggle was the Investiture Controversy (also see here). One of the most powerful and effective tools used by the papacy in its power struggles with kings and princes were the Decretals of Pseudo-Isidore, better known as the False Decretals — a collection of mostly forged documents thought to have been written in the ninth century that claimed to have been written in the third century. These forgeries were instrumental in permitting the pope of Rome to increase his power in Western Europe and to transform the papacy into a monarchy.
This is the gist of Valentine’s ludicrous analysis. The papocaesarism of the Middle Ages, which Catholics of every stripe and color admit was conditioned by historical circumstances, and do not reflect the true nature of the papal office, is utilized by Valentine as the whole basis of his analysis of papal infallibility. Papal infallibility only relates to theological/moral matters, NOT to the relationship of the papacy with the secular power. I could go into a whole diatribe on how the secular government has infected the Eastern Orthodox religion, but that is not the topic of our discussion. I just mention that to indicate the measure of hypocrisy that pervades this portion of Valentine’s essay. As a matter of fact, the secular powers were themselves on the edge during the Vatican Council, because they feared that a decree on infallibility would invest the Pope with absolute authority even in the secular sphere. But, of course, this is not what infallibility was/is about. More will be said on Valentine’s flawed syllogism later.
It was commonly held that the pope of Rome was subject to an assembly of the Church’s bishops. This was clearly taught by the Council of Constance (1414-1418) when it deposed three popes (Gregory XII, Benedict XIII, and John XXIII) and elected Martin V as the new pope rather than allowing the cardinals of Old Rome to conduct the election.
First of all, what does it matter if a Council deposes false popes (Benedict XIII and John XXIII)? In fact, the legitimate Pope Gregory XII was NOT deposed by the Council, but rather abdicated. This abdication was a condition to which he already agreed when he was elected in 1406 (several years before the Council of Constance was even a twinkle in the eye). This agreement stated that, to facilitate peace in the Church, the next Pope to be elected – i.e., Gregory XII - would willfully abdicate when the other would-be Popes relinquished or were effectively deprived of power. When this occurred, the Cardinals, along with a few representatives of certain States, voted Martin V into the papacy. This is the ACTUAL course of events, not the caricature presented by Valentine.
Today, the Vatican regards the latter sessions of the Council of Constance to be an Ecumenical Council, but refuses to grant that status to the earlier sessions which taught that
… a general council, representing the catholic church militant, has power immediately from Christ, and that everyone of whatever state or dignity, even papal, is bound to obey it in those matters which pertain to the faith
This was also the teaching of the Council of Basel (1431-1439):
This holy synod also declares that … it cannot be dissolved even by a pope, and that a council actually assembled cannot be dissolved or moved from place to place by a Roman pontiff without the express consent of the council itself…
It is well and good that later generations rejected these earlier sessions of Constance and Basel because these earlier sessions actually violated the prescriptions of Apostolic Canon 34 – they were held without the approval of the head bishop, the Pope. Every body of bishops must recognize who is their head and not do anything of import without the consent of their head. If later generations rejected these earlier sessions, it was in accordance with the dictates of the Apostles themselves.
And btw, there is nothing technically wrong with the statement from the Council of Constance above, for indeed, even the Pope is bound by the decrees of an Ecumenical Council. The problem with it was that it was working off of the flawed premise that a general council does not have a head bishop, whose consent, along with the other bishops, is necessary for a council to be valid. It is often claimed that Latins give too much regard for the head without heed to the body; personally, as an Oriental, I can’t even conceive of a body without a head and vice-versa. But I guess it is relatively easy for Easterns to conceive of a body without a head, if Valentine thinks that the earlier sessions of Constance and Basle could possibly have any validity…
Even as late as the nineteenth century, Roman Catholic bishops taught that the pope was subject to a General Council (i.e., an Ecumenical Council). Such was the testimony of Roman Catholic bishops to a Parliament Royal Commission in 1825. As long as the pope of Rome was regarded as subject to an Ecumenical Council, as long as a pope could not dictate doctrine solely on his authority, there was no need to grant him the status of infallibility
Here is another great error in Valentine’s (and generally the non-Catholic’s) understanding of papal infallibility. The Pope’s infallibility is possessed not as a separate charism from the Church’s infallibility, but is one and the same infallibility possessed by the Church – i.e., the infallibility of God. The Vatican Council was NOT granting the Pope infallibility. It was simply defining the infallibility that was ALREADY his by virtue of being the head of the infallible body which is the Church. The Council only intended to DEFINE and REFINE infallibility as manifested in the head bishopric of the Church. As the Decree itself teaches: “…possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed.

As a matter of fact, in the 19th century, infallibility was very often MISunderstood by the State as a reference to the absolute sovereignty of the Pope over secular rulers. This was the fear that the Royal Commission intended to address in 1825 (and it was a fear that pervaded the minds of many heads of State during the Vatican Council!), and it was in response to this MISconception of papal infallibility that the Latin bishops gave their testimony. As far as theological infallibility, however, there was never a doubt in the minds of the Latin bishops.

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Even as late as the mid-19th century, Roman Catholic catechisms denied papal infallibility. For instance, one of the most popular Roman Catholic catechisms in mid-19th century England was the Controversial Catechism, by the Reverend Stephen Keenan which provides this Q & A:
Q. Must not Catholics believe the Pope in himself to be infallible?
A. This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of the Catholic faith; no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it be received and enforced by the teaching body; that is, by the bishops of the Church.
I don’t know why non-Catholic polemicists keep bringing this up. As stated earlier, the Latin bishops were responding to MISconceptions of the papacy in their statements to the secular power. Here it is even MORE plain that the Keenan catechism was responding to “Protestant inventions” regarding papal infallibility. Some of these inventions were, among others: 1) That the Pope is separated from the Church when exercising infallibility; 2) the Pope’s infallibility permits him to depose rulers; 3) Every decision of the Pope is infallible; 4) Bishops can never share in the same infallibility possessed by the pope, etc., etc., etc. I’m not saying that the Latin bishops in Ireland believed that papal infallibility was a Protestant invention, rather that there was a Protestant misconception of papal infallibility that was so skewed as to threaten the safe existence of Catholics in Britain. These same Irish bishops wrote in 1828, “It is not an article of the Catholic Faith, neither are they thereby required to believe the Pope is infallible.” It should be noted that the Irish bishops wrote this in the context of attempting to acquire full equal rights for Catholics. The Irish bishops basically made their statements UNDER DURESS, as a means to gain for Catholics the fair treatment which was heretofore denied to them. It was only in 1829 that Britain passed the Catholic Emancipation Act.

Btw, the downplaying of papal authority among Catholics in Britain actually had a historical name – Cisalpinism. Here is a wiki article on it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisalpinism, indicating its origins to be conditioned by the persecution of Catholics in Great Britain.
During the period when the popes of Old Rome lost much of their secular power (in 1860, most of the Papal States seceded and joined the newly-formed country of Italy; in 1866, most of what had remained of the Papal States also joined Italy). In 1870 — only two months before the Italian army occupied what remained of the Papal States (the area around Old Rome itself) — Pope Pius IX pushed through an approval of papal infallibility by bishops gathered for the First Vatican Council. (Due to the political/military situation, the First Vatican Council was halted by bishops fleeing the city and the council was not officially closed until the beginning of the Second Vatican Council nearly one hundred years later.) An extremely interesting account of the process, written by a Latin priest (August Bernhard Hasler) who had access to archives of the Vatican Library, is How the Pope Became Infallible: Pius IX and the Politics of Persuasion (Doubleday & Co., New York, 1981). Hasler presents a great deal of documentation showing how Pius IX railroaded the acceptance of papal infallibility by stacking the council, threatening opponents (to the point of verbal abuse, vindictiveness, and coercive tactics), and rewarding allies. The book is out of print but one ought to be able to procure it from a library, either on the shelves or through interlibrary loan. It is well worth the effort needed to obtain a copy and time to read it.
Here he goes again, attempting to make a connection between the Pope’s secular influence and papal infallibility. You gotta wonder why the Vatican Council went through great pains to advertise to the world that the Council was not intended to reinstate the Pope’s secular prerogatives that he possessed in the Middle Ages. If the Pope intended the dogma of infallibility as a recovery of his secular prestige, he sure went about it the wrong way! :banghead:

And yes, I happen to have the book by Hasler, and I have to say it is rather venomously biased. He treats possibilities and conjectures as certainties (just three examples among numerous: 1) there was a rumor that one of the bishops was the son of the Pope, and he takes great pains to “prove” that to be the case, even though all this “proofs” are not facts at all – since his book was published, his lie has been soundly and finally refuted by the production of the actual birth certificate of Abp Guidi proving he was not the son of the Pope; 2) Many bishops left the Council due to illness because of the stifling heat, yet he uncompromisingly asserts – with no proof – that these were merely “feigned” to give the impression that bishops did not want to be present at the Council; 3) he actually has the gall to claim that the Majority party used the war as a mere excuse to postpone the completion of the council!), and gives only half-truths to mislead the reader (for instance, he makes a big deal about how the Pope supposedly tried to browbeat Archbishop Guidi for trying to make an amendment to the decree on infallibility, but he fails to mention that Guidi’s amendment was ACTUALLY ACCEPTED by the Deputation De Fide [the body responsible for forming the text of the decree]). One thing any fair reader of the book will also discover is that the Pope hardly had a thing to do with any of the supposed coercions that occurred during the Council. They were in fact done, indeed, by those who supported the dogma of infallibility, but Hasler certainly gives absolutely no proof (but, once again, mere conjecture which he treats as decisive) that Pope Pius IX was personally involved in the actions of these infallibilists. If I had the time, I would refute Hasler’s book right here. But as I don’t, I would encourage others simply to read Dom Cuthbert Butler’s Vatican Council (Newman Press, 1930), which gives a solid account of the Council from the letters of member bishops, without the misleading slants given by someone like Hasler who obviously had a liberal agenda against the papacy. Anyone concerned with intellectual honesty will either treat Hasler’s work for the trash that it is, or at least read Dom Butler’s saner account to counterbalance Hasler’s yellow journalism.
The definition of infallibility — that the pope when speaking ex cathedra (literally from the chair [of Peter]) about doctrine or morals is preserved from all error — has one enormous flaw: no definition of ex cathedra was made. Here is the actual statement from the First Vatican Council
… the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra — that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church — is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church’s consent
Though there is a quasi-attempt to define ex cathedra — when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher — this merely shifts the uncertainty to the question as to what constitutes exercise of his office as pastor and teacher. To this day, the pope’s followers argue and debate what constitutes ex cathedra. Lacking an accepted definition, there is no agreement on what papal statements are deemed ex cathedra! The manifestations of this are easily seen: a statement by Pope John Paul II on the question as to whether women can be ordained has generated serious debate since 1994 as to whether it was an ex cathedra statement (and the pope has offered no clarification!).
Here again, we see indications that Valentine does not actually understand the Church’s teaching on infallibility. The infallibility of the Church, in which the Pope shares, is coextensive in time. Thus, there need not be a forced debate on what is ex cathedra if the Pope appeals either to his personal charism to establish the infallibility of a teaching, or to the existing infallible teaching of the Church which the Pope is himself bound to uphold and defend. IOW, the Pope does not need to appeal to the authority of the infallible Petrine office in order to assert to the Church that a teaching is infallible – he can just as easily appeal to the authority of the infallible Sacred Tradition.

After this, Valentine spends a good amount of time criticizing Unam Sanctam, explaining that Catholic apologists are not certain whether it is ex cathedra or not (Valentine argues that it is by virtue of the words expressed in the Bull). But what does it really prove that Catholic apologists are not agreed as to which statements of the Pope are ex cathedra? Once again, Valentine’s straw man betrays his misunderstanding of papal infallibility. It demonstrates that he is utterly ignorant of the fact that papal infallibility is NOT the ONLY organ of infallibility in the Catholic Church. His caricature of papal infallibility (which assumes that all teaching flows directly from the infallible papal office) forces him to assume that just because Catholics are not agreed as to the identity of ex cathedra pronouncements, then Catholics are not certain what teachings are actually infallible. But Catholics have other means to ascertain infallible teaching – these are Sacred Tradition, Ecumenical Councils, and the bishops individually teaching a common doctrine even when spread throughout the world.

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Obviously, the only way to make such a determination is in hindsight. Orthodox Catholic Christianity has no problem with labelling a statement infallible after it has been tested by the Church with the clarity of hindsight. Most Orthodox Catholic Christians would agree that anyone making the statement that the Lord Jesus Christ was fully God and fully Man was teaching infallibly. Orthodox Catholic Christians will unanimously agree that Lectis Dilectionis Tuae (the first entry in the above table) is an infallible statement — because it was subjected to an examination and analysis by a synod of bishops (Chalcedon, 451) which in turn was subjected to examination by the Church as a whole and accepted as the Fourth Ecumenical Synod (Council). Because the teaching, upon examination, was found consistent with that which had been believed everywhere, always, and by all (i.e., antiquity, universality, and consent), it was and can be regarded as infallible. But there is an enormous difference between making such a judgement after an examination by the Church as a whole and insisting that a person holding a particular office can a priori be regarded as infallible.
Valentine’s understanding of infallibility is laughable, at best. He claims that Orthodox can agree that a certain papal teaching is infallible BECAUSE (Valentine’s emphasis) it was subjected to examination by a synod! Truly, this man has no conception that infallibility is first and foremost the infallibility of God. God does not need a Council to judge His teachings as infallible. :banghead: If a teaching is infallible, it does not require the examination of a synod to BE infallible. It was ALREADY infallible BEFORE it even came to the table to be discussed. In fact, it was infallible even BEFORE the Pope gave expression to it. Apostolic Canon 34 explicitly asserts the necessity for consensus – it is for the sake of UNITY, NOT to determine what is or is not Truth. The failure of non-Catholics in realizing this is one of the great causes of disunity. The expression of Truth may come about by the authority of an ex cathedra pronouncement, or an Ecumenical Council, or by a universal teaching of individual bishops. But consensus does NOT determine Truth; rather consensus determines UNITY (though of course unity is a factor of Truth).
Scholars — even those who follow the pope of Old Rome — agree the doctrine of papal infallibility was not overtly proclaimed in the early Church. Proponents of papal infallibility, unable to find positive arguments in the teaching of the early Church, engage in an argument from silence that there is an implicit belief of papal infallibility based upon the actions of the Church. They conveniently ignore the condemnation by the Fifth Ecumenical Synod (Council) of Pope Vigilius I as a heretic (which is positive and explicit evidence there was no belief of papal infallibility in the early Church) by arguing Pope Vigilius I was not teaching ex cathedra but only as a private person (ignoring the fact that the condemnation was based on an official epistle from the pope to the patriarch of Constantinople — which many proponents of papal infallibility argue was a forgery). In the debate on the status of Pope Vigilius I, the proponents of papal infallibility always seem to create excuses as to why they should not accept the facts of history in order to avoid admitting papal infallibility was a late invention. Similarly, in the case of Pope Honorius I who was explicitly anathematised by the Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Synods (Councils) for teaching heresy, proponents of papal infallibility continually create excuses as to why they ignore the facts of history. These apologists for papal infallibility even dismiss the teachings of the Councils of Constance and Basel (presented above) because they did not receive papal approval and are thus not ecumenical (a classic case of a circular argument!).
This author can’t even get his facts straight, and he expects us to accept the rest of his claims? I’ve given the facts of the matter regarding Popes Vigilius and Honorius already. Those examples certainly do not prove the non-Catholic position. Btw, notice the dishonesty of Valentine. He claims Pope Vigilius was condemned as a heretic – absolutely false. The man obviously has never read the acts of the Fifth Ecum Council. This man is no scholar. Further, he has the gall to assert that the Councils condemned Pope Honorius for “teaching heresy.” At best, the Councils asserted that Pope Honorius “supported” the heretics or “followed” the heretics, but nowhere do the Councils claim that Pope Honorius TAUGHT the heresy. As I stated, Valentine is no scholar.

And rejecting certain sessions of Constance-Basle is not a circular argument. This man obviously has no inkling of Apostolic Canon 34!

Valentine then gives a lengthy quote from a liberal Catholic Brian Tierney, apparently believing his interpretation of papal infallibility is correct. If you wish me to do so, I will refute him as well, but I only have time for the moment to refute Valentine.

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It is necessary to abandon our common awareness that, due to God’s gift of free will, men can and do say no to God. We recognise all men are fallible. We instinctively recoil from the idea that any individual can be infallible, even under limited circumstances. It seems that the claim that, under certain circumstances, God guarantees that a man cannot say no, cannot fall into error, is a denial of this God-given free will. One cannot help but wonder why, if God would overcome a person’s free will in order to prevent a fall into error, why would He not keep all people from error? (Of course, this would mean a revocation of free will and would be contrary to what God has revealed to us.) The historical facts clearly support this common awareness: history is littered with incidents of individuals falling into error — Pope Vigilius I and Pope Honorius I of Old Rome condemned by Ecumenical Synods, Pope Celestine III declared a heretic by Pope Adrian VI, and numerous patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Antioch, plus countless clergy. As long as there is free will, there will always be people who say no to God and remove themselves from His Church.
Yada, yada, yada, and for the same reasons Protestants cannot believe that Ecumenical Councils are infallible. This argument of hypocrisy has no merit whatsoever.
It is necessary to abandon our common awareness that there is safety in numbers. There is good reason for the clichéd warning about not placing all our eggs in one basket. It is far, far easier for a single person to fall away from truth and into error than for everyone to fall into error. History supports this awareness. The vast majority of the bishops fell into error during the height of the Arian heresy, but there was a faithful remnant within the Church which maintained the True Faith. It was this faithful remnant that eventually overcame Arianism. We find throughout the history of the Church that when a heresy threatened the Church, there was always a faithful remnant led by heroic bishops who preserved the True Faith. These leaders came from various places (e.g. Athanasius of Alexandria against the Arians, Flavian of Constantinople against the Monophysites, Zachariah of Jerusalem against the Monothelites) just as the Lord raised up prophets at various times from various places to combat error amongst His chosen people in Old Testament times.
First, he argues there is safety in numbers, then he argues that a remnant will always be present. So is it really in the numbers that doctrinal safety is ensured? :banghead: And how do you recognize this remnant? He uses the Arian controversy as his example, yet fails to recognize that during the Arian controversy, EVERYONE looked to ROME as the standard of orthodoxy, even the other orthodox Patriarchs and bishops!
It is necessary to ignore the historical fact that papal infallibility fails the test of catholicity as explained by Saint Vincent of Lerins in his Notebooks (written 434), namely that of antiquity, universality, and consent, or that which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all. Clearly, the idea of papal infallibility was not held in antiquity but was a rather late invention. Neither did the idea of papal infallibility have common consent as can be seen from the opposition it engendered — besides the opposition from Protestantism and Orthodox Catholic Christianity, it gave birth to a schism from the Vatican that adopted the name Old Catholics
Everyone always looked to Rome as the standard of orthodoxy in the early Church. You don’t do this unless you are confident that this particular See has a special charism from God for the preservation of the Faith. As early as St. Ignatius, we see him assign to the Church in Rome a purity in doctrine that is not contained in any of his other letters to the other Churches.
It is necessary to ignore the circumstances leading to the proclamation of papal infallibility in 1870. To believe this invention, one must either ignore the fact that the papacy established its power through the use of forgeries, uncharitable and unchristian behaviour (not the least of which was the use of strong-arm tactics which included verbal abuse, vindictiveness, and coercion) in a grab for earthly glory rather than Christian humility
Once again, if the intent of the Vatican Council was to recover the lost secular prerogatives of the papacy, they certainly did a miserable job! :banghead:
It is necessary to believe that, despite all the evil means used to attain the definition of infallibility, the end itself was good — in other words, the end justified the means.
Valentine actually does not cite one single instance of “evil” used to attain the definition of infallibility. What he does is describe completely irrelevant circumstances in history that he tries to connect with the dogma of infallibility – and viola! But a good rhetorician always needs to make a good final impression – false though it may be, he tries.
There is, of course, a far more plausible viewpoint. One can believe the Faith does not change in content, that new dogma will never be created, that changes need the approval of the entire Body of Christ, that any person can fall into error but there will always be a faithful remnant, that the Church has but one infallible Head — the Lord Jesus Christ. This viewpoint is historically consistent and agrees with common sense and experience.
These beliefs Valentine has related are also contained in the teachings of the Catholic Church. Why he tries to present it in opposition to Catholic teaching exposes his wicked bias. No rational individual could be persuaded by his drivel, fraught with so many historical inaccuracies and misconceptions of what papal infallibility actually is, but those who are already prejudiced against the Catholic Church will likely lend an ear.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. I won’t be back again for several days.
 
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