Interested in orthodoxy-advice?

[Peter_J]

This really depends on the parish. It’s a sliding scale from “Orthodox in communion with Rome” on one side to “Roman Catholics with a funny Mass” on the other side.

There’s more diversity among “Orthodox in communion with Rome” than you think: some are deeply involved in arguing against the Orthodox (or whatever term they would use in place of “the Orthodox”) and some are not.

Granted, the former are usually also ones to say that all Greek Catholics are “Orthodox in communion with Rome”. If that matters to you.

 

[Micosil]

Not necessarily. Purgatory can be found in the east, but it’s far different from the western view. Many Eastern Christians (Orthodox and Eastern Catholic) put great emphasis on Theosis unlike the west. In fact, many eastern Catholics hold this view that this is what purgatory really is. Original sin is not really a problem either. Now, the western and eastern view of original sin are different. Though, contrary to many Eastern Orthodox arguments against Catholicism, we do not teach original guilt. Many Eastern Catholics views on original sin are closer to Orthodox views. And finally, the Immaculate Conception is held as dogma in the Catholic Church. However, the western view of sin is not. Eastern Catholics do believe Mary was conceived without original sin… they also believe so was everyone else. They do not reject dogma. They just have a different perspective of the dogma. Eastern Catholics agree Mary was sinless from birth. Most Eastern Orthodox agree with that. Though, I do believe some Eastern Orthodox believe Mary was only sinless from since the Annunciation.

Interesting. Would you mind expanding on what I have bolded? I’m curious about that.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Interesting. Would you mind expanding on what I have bolded? I’m curious about that.

Well, the Catholic Church accepts both the western view and eastern view of original sin. Since the Latin Church is the largest, the western view of original sin is the one we hear about the most. But, the Eastern Catholics have the same view of original sin as Eastern Orthodox do. The west sees original sin as sinful nature. So, in western theology, if Mary never sinned, she must have been cleansed from original sin since her conception. In the west this is referred to as Immaculate Conception. The east does not see original sin in this way at all. So, they don’t believe in Immaculate Conception, at least not in the western way. The truth of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is not the “Immaculate Conception” but that Mary was always sinless. In the western theology, this had to be due to Mary being cleansed of original sin. And today the western theological view is the most widely held and taught since the Latin Church is the largest. In the east, it is purely Gods grace guiding her along the way so she does not sin at all. Not a cleansing from original sin. This is what Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe.

 

[Micosil]

Well, the Catholic Church accepts both the western view and eastern view of original sin. Since the Latin Church is the largest, the western view of original sin is the one we hear about the most. But, the Eastern Catholics have the same view of original sin as Eastern Orthodox do. The west sees original sin as sinful nature. So, in western theology, if Mary never sinned, she must have been cleansed from original sin since her conception. In the west this is referred to as Immaculate Conception. The east does not see original sin in this way at all. So, they don’t believe in Immaculate Conception, at least not in the western way. The truth of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is not the “Immaculate Conception” but that Mary was always sinless. In the western theology, this had to be due to Mary being cleansed of original sin. And today the western theological view is the most widely held and taught since the Latin Church is the largest. In the east, it is purely Gods grace guiding her along the way so she does not sin at all. Not a cleansing from original sin. This is what Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe.

I’m rather confused.

You see, Pope Pius IX defined this doctrine, ex cathedra, in 1854:

We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.

The part I’ve bolded in this dogmatic declaration seems to suggest that she was cleansed of original sin. So the truth of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception does seem to suggest an actual Immaculate Conception.

As you see, it “should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful”, which would presumably include all the Eastern Catholics in communion with Rome, so I’m very confused now.

 

[Peter_J]

As you see, it “should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful”, which would presumably include all the Eastern Catholics in communion with Rome, so I’m very confused now.

Would and does.

 

[Micosil]

Would and does.

That is what I thought.

So now, how to reconcile this with what thephilosopher6 said?

 

[Peter_J]

That is what I thought.

So now, how to reconcile this with what thephilosopher6 said?

Well, I’ll leave that for the philosopher, and whoever else, to discuss.

Come to think of it, I might make a Lenten resolution to be more concerned about Catholics I see IRL, and less concerned about postings I see on the Internet.

 

[Micosil]

Well, I’ll leave that for the philosopher, and whoever else, to discuss.

Come to think of it, I might make a Lenten resolution to be more concerned about Catholics I see IRL, and less concerned about postings I see on the Internet.

Heh, that may be a good idea.

 

[thephilosopher6]

I’m rather confused.

You see, Pope Pius IX defined this doctrine, ex cathedra, in 1854:

The part I’ve bolded in this dogmatic declaration seems to suggest that she was cleansed of original sin. So the truth of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception does seem to suggest an actual Immaculate Conception.

As you see, it “should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful”, which would presumably include all the Eastern Catholics in communion with Rome, so I’m very confused now.

He was using scholastic terminology since he was himself a scholastic theologian and a member of the western church.

east2west.org/doctrine.htm

 

[Micosil]

He was using scholastic terminology since he was himself a scholastic theologian and a member of the western church.

east2west.org/doctrine.htm

Very nice descriptive page. This cleared it up for me:

As you can see, this entire dispute goes back to how one chooses to define “original sin.” Because the Eastern Catholic Churches follow the guidance of the Pope of Rome, we believe that Mary was freed from original sin at the very first moment of her existence.

 

[Peter_J]

Very nice descriptive page. This cleared it up for me:

Yeah, Dr. Dragani’s great. Unfortunately when he was on the expert lineup for the EWTN website his Inbox was almost always full, hence many people who wanted to ask him something didn’t get a chance.

 

[Micosil]

Yeah, Dr. Dragani’s great. Unfortunately when he was on the expert lineup for the EWTN website his Inbox was almost always full, hence many people who wanted to ask him something didn’t get a chance.

Nice. I’ll be sure to bookmark that page. Even though I will be baptized into the Latin Rite, I do enjoy learning about the traditions of our Eastern brethren. Many beautiful liturgies in those churches.

 

[Kosta]

I dont know if any of you remember, but my first thread on here I decided to abandon TEC for it’s protestant and evangelical heresies, which I could not stand anymore.If you saw that thread, you may remember that I said I was "dismayed at the overly ethnic nature of many orthodox congregations.’’ However, after seeing videos of their beautiful liturgies (St. James’s I find is particularly gorgeous, and realizing they have fewer dogmas than Catholics they are required to assent to (some are very difficult for me to wrap my head around), I’m recanting my earlier position and have decided to.
give our eastern brethren a real chance this time.
My only 3 concerns are these:
1.Do American orthodox churches usually have services in English, and if not are ones that do hard to find?
2. I know the service requires a lot of standing, but due to my physical disabilities I tire quickly from standing for long periods. Would it be disrespectful to sit?
3. Due to the same disabilities, I have a ridiculously overactive metabolism, and I’m not sure I could handle the fasts.

God Bless,
DeusExMachina

I might be late to the game, but this is one of my favorite Church resource; assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes. Just plug a zipcode in and there you go. It even includes the Bahamas.

1. Yes, absolutely, there are parishes where Divine Liturgy is in 100% English. Please don’t hesitate to call the parish of your choice to ask if that’s the case; the people on the other end of the phone are there to help.
2. No, absolutely not, no. I’ve seen grown man sit while old women stand, and I have never with my own two eyes and own two eyes seen or heard anyone comment on sitting versus standing. The only time I’ve ever been asked to something differently was when I lived in Thessaloniki, Greece I would stand in the women’s section so as not to be separated from my friend after church since the parish could get crowded and a woman asked me to stand in the men’s section, but even then that was her own personal opinion and several elderly women disagreed with her directive. No one from on high is going to stop church to tell you to stand, I promise, especially if it’s a health problem. The church is a hospital for the sick, spiritual and physical. What could would praxis be if it’s physically causing someone pain?
3. I stress that if you can’t fast due to health problems that you don’t have to. My parish priest released me from fasting because he thought as a teenager that it was important to get protein and in college because he knew that I was on a food budget. No priest and I mean no priest is going to force you to fast if it can cause you physical pain. *Fasting is a means to an end, it is not the *end.

Not that I have any right to pontificate as I’m only a college student with a computer, but I’m reminded of Matthew 7:13-14. This road that lies before you is difficult, but it is worth it. I really like Fr. Lev Gillet’s quote “O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involves, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Pascha (Easter) like no other.” Good luck, friend, and God bless.

If you have any further questions, please don’t hesitate to message me and I can give you my email for ease of communication.

 

[recentrevert]

I’m no authority on the subject by a long shot, but from my experience, OCA churches usually celebrate their liturgies in English. Regarding fasting, the Orthodox on this forum have repeatedly said that if there are concerns, they should be worked out with your confessor/spiritual advisor. Orthodoxy is hard to take in, which is why the Orthodox make it hard to join in the first place. There is no quick step-by-step, formulaic RCIA process from my own personal experience. Frankly, I think the Catholic Church would be better off if they made candidates and catechumens wait longer (Differing from person-by-person of course) to avoid people coming into the Church not fully accepting church teaching. RCIA is quick and dirty.

I think it would be better if priests simply investigated more thoroughly whether candidates have accepted Church teaching rather than delaying all of them unnecessarily. It is important to receive the grace of the sacraments and those who can should not have obstacles placed in their way. Doesn’t RCIA take at least six months?

 

[recentrevert]

I dont know if any of you remember, but my first thread on here I decided to abandon TEC for it’s protestant and evangelical heresies, which I could not stand anymore.If you saw that thread, you may remember that I said I was "dismayed at the overly ethnic nature of many orthodox congregations.’’ However, after seeing videos of their beautiful liturgies (St. James’s I find is particularly gorgeous, and realizing they have fewer dogmas than Catholics they are required to assent to (some are very difficult for me to wrap my head around), I’m recanting my earlier position and have decided to.
give our eastern brethren a real chance this time.
My only 3 concerns are these:
1.Do American orthodox churches usually have services in English, and if not are ones that do hard to find?
2. I know the service requires a lot of standing, but due to my physical disabilities I tire quickly from standing for long periods. Would it be disrespectful to sit?
3. Due to the same disabilities, I have a ridiculously overactive metabolism, and I’m not sure I could handle the fasts.

God Bless,
DeusExMachina

Just because something is difficult or impossible to understand it does not make it false. How can the human mind understand all that God has revealed? You should be searching and praying to find and accept the truth. Beauty of the liturgy is good but it is not equivalent to truth.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

I think it would be better if priests simply investigated more thoroughly whether candidates have accepted Church teaching rather than delaying all of them unnecessarily. It is important to receive the grace of the sacraments and those who can should not have obstacles placed in their way. Doesn’t RCIA take at least six months?

I wrote “Differing from person-by-person of course”

 

[DeusExMachina]

Just because something is difficult or impossible to understand it does not make it false. How can the human mind understand all that God has revealed? You should be searching and praying to find and accept the truth. Beauty of the liturgy is good but it is not equivalent to truth.

I have prayed and cannot understand the truth of the immaculate conception, and I cannot stand when some Catholics insist on calling Mary mediatrix

 

[recentrevert]

I have prayed and cannot understand the truth of the immaculate conception, and I cannot stand when some Catholics insist on calling Mary mediatrix

Mary was conceived without sin - what is so difficult to understand? It is more the ‘marks of the Church’ I would suggest you look for in your search for truth than the understanding of complex truths which we cannot fully understand. We call Mary the Mediatrix because she mediates grace between us and Christ who merited all grace for us.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Mary was conceived without sin - what is so difficult to understand? It is more the ‘marks of the Church’ I would suggest you look for in your search for truth than the understanding of complex truths which we cannot fully understand. We call Mary the Mediatrix because she mediates grace between us and Christ who merited all grace for us.

Well the Catholic Church is certainly one, holy Catholic, and apostolic, but at this point I’m wondering if it is any more than the Orthodox Church

 

[Peter_J]

Well the Catholic Church is certainly one, holy Catholic, and apostolic, but at this point I’m wondering if it is any more than the Orthodox Church

Less, if you listen to them.