Interesting article Marian apparitions from an Orthodox point of view.

[coco2]

I go to a church with many people who believe in every marian apparition. They are very devout and seemingly holy people. They have all been to Medjugorje numerous times, they go to that place in Cleveland where statues are talking, believe in Garabundal, etc. I think they have never been told that an apparition could actually be Satan fooling them. I believed all of them, too, until I heard that this was a possibility. Then I started to look into them more seriously. Then I became frightened because I can’t discern them! If what I have read about medjugorje is true, then there are many problems there. Garabundal was rather strange the way the children’s bodies flew up hills backwards and they would be bent over in strange contortions. This doesn’t seem holy to me, but I wasn’t there, just watched videos.

anyway, I like praying with these people but I haven’t told them I don’t believe all the apparitions because I’m afraid of their reaction. I think people are starving for a spiritual life, direction, and hope and just aren’t getting that from their parish priests or parishes in general. Lord help us!

 

[Cavaradossi]

Hm? And which devotion did Our Lady gave you by her own hands? None? Thought so .

Well, the story goes that the Theotokos appeared before St. Nektarios of Aegina and asked him to write down the words of the hymn Agni Parthene before the angles then sang the melody for him, hehe.

(hopefully, the angels sang it more in tune than the congregation at my parish does)

 

[Marybeloved]

Then I became frightened because I can’t discern them!

Thank God for the Church, then!

My friend its not really up to you to discern these things. Personally, unless the Church has OK’d something, I’ll avoid it like the plague. The Carmelite doctors discourage any proclivity to supernatural phenomena at all. They teach that such a seeking after signs & wonders will expose you to Satan’s deceptions- And Satan is very good at deceiving and coaxing spiritual pride while you remain unawares. Both Teresa of Avila & John of the Cross advise the sojourner to display a totally aloof attitude towards any extraordinary manifestations- even if that manifestation claims to be the Lord himself! Only after proper discernment with a spiritual director (a good one) can you assume that it’s not the Devil’s tricks- And neither the Lord nor his saints will lead you to disobey your director :nope:. (How much more careful should you be if it’s some other person’s experiences?). If you have that proclivity of seeking the extraordinary rather than of struggling on the road to union, you can imagine how easy it’ll be for the Devil to ensnare you with such things. :sad_yes:

I think people are starving for a spiritual life, direction, and hope and just aren’t getting that from their parish priests or parishes in general. Lord help us!

In “The Three Ages of the Interior Life” available free online, (one of our standard guides on the christian road) the wisdom of the saints, what to avoid, what to prefer, what habits to inculcate have been explained. Good spiritual direction is rare as Gold, but I read that if you ask the Holy Spirit, he’ll either send you one or take his place until you find one, rather than if you just try and do these things on your own. Humility is the key. Like you say, the ideal would be if we had a St. John Vianney (or two!) in every Parish. But we always have the Church :extrahappy:.

Peace!

 

[Marybeloved]

I think people are starving for a spiritual life, direction, and hope and just aren’t getting that from their parish priests or parishes in general. Lord help us!

In “The Three Ages of the Interior Life” available free online, (one of our standard guides on the christian road) the wisdom of the saints, what to avoid, what to prefer, what habits to inculcate have been explained. Good spiritual direction rare as Gold, but I read that if you ask the Holy Spirit, he’ll either send you one or take his place until you find one, rather than if you just try and do these things on your own. Humility is the key. Like you say, the ideal would be if we had a St. John Vianney (or two!) in every Parish. But we always have the Church :extrahappy:.

Peace!

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

Right, my friend. I would never try to dissuade anyone from the Holy Rosary- what other marian devotion can compare? And you’re right- The power of the rosary is too well attested by Popes and Saints for any of us here to try and downplay our Lady’s amazing help! But you seem to have the right relationship w/our Lady- you look to her to help you on the road to heaven rather than as someone to just get you stuff, which of course she can, but we pray Rosary to learn about Christ, to love/honor our mother and to become holy. I, like you, believe from experience, that Rosary can transform you.

Peace!

 

[Perth21]

Perth, the Church has said that it is not necessary to believe in Marian apparitions. We are free to accept them, or not accept them. Your comment sounds like a threat…if I deny them or their meaning, I am going against what was asked of me? HUH? I already pray, read scripture, go to Mass, say the rosary, love God and ( try to) love my neighbor. I am sorry for all the confusion that has been in your life and am glad that you now have Christ at the center. I am not trying to put out your flame, I am just being cautious. I do not think all of there apparitions have been “tested”. I have no idea how you test these things. I don’t think looking at “the fruits” are enough. Some apparitions contradict each other, therefore there is a problem somewhere. And they all have produced some “good fruits”. obviously, it is just as difficult for the Church to determine what is happening, as they have only approved a few. And even then, they never say it actually happened, only that it is worthy of belief.

I am sorry, I didn’t mean it as a threat, it’s just that sometimes when I write I lose sight of the fact that I can’t convey encouraging nature properly here, it was meant to sound like an encouragement, not as a threat, because yes, you’re right, it is one’s choice at the end of the day and you do not have to believe in them. And yes, you have a point about proof, but I ask you, for a person who has experienced them and truly knows in their heart that what they saw/felt was real, do they really need to prove it to anyone else? Have I gone to the church to try to prove my encounters, for example, with the presence of Christ who has been there for me when I most needed Him? Nope, didn’t need to. Why? Why when I know that the experience was on a level deeper than what is physically proven? Why when I know what I felt and what my soul saw (yet my eyes and mind didn’t, I don’t know how to explain it but it’s this sense of just knowing He’s there and present with you, it’s beyond the body, it’s beyond the boundaries of this life) is true? It’s proof enough for me to know that what I experienced was true, and though I can’t prove it to others, why should I? It happened to me for a reason, it saved me from death for a reason, and that is proof enough for me. So now to rephrase my point above without making it look like a threat, for I do not look to fight with others, I live to love my neighbour even he who has harmed me, let me restate: to those that feel they have had experiences of apparitions, doubt not, you felt them/saw them for a reason, and the important thing isn’t necessarily to prove it to the church or the world, but to keep that faith you acquired from it, because that is why it is there. So to those that feel like they experienced something, then hold on to that feeling, because God is watching over you, and chances are, you felt that something for a reason!

God bless!

 

[Khalid]

And that something may very well be from Satan.

All false religions have adherents that believe they have experienced miraculous verification of the truth of their religion, from Hinduism to Mohammedanism; Mormonism relies on it exclusively (“read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, and the Holy Spirit will give you a burning in the bosom”: quite obviously these religions all have some sort of Spirit working in them, and it is just as obvious that these spirits are not Holy). Faith and subjective experience do not establish, or even provide evidence, for the truth-value of a claim: faith and subjective experience can and must only proceed from and affirm that which is already established through reason.

To rely on subjective experience for religion, or to attempt to interpret private revelation, is a very dangerous path: it may lead to the Devil, who appears even to the elect as an angel of light, or even down the broad path to the wide gates of fideism itself. Faith illumines reason and reason illumines faith; faith without reason is blind faith, and easily misled, which oft becomes reactionary and fundamentalist, rejecting all that does not affirm it; reason without faith leads to Deism at best, but more often with secularist materialism in tow.

 

[TrueLight]

Interesting. I can’t argue with any of that.

How would you go about explaining the many, even some on this forum, who are fairly learned in their faith who might still fall into the realm of excessive Marian devotion? I’m not trying to be contrary, I am at a loss to explain it.

One thing that makes it hard/confusing for me is that traditionalists tend to be very much adherents to personal revelations. It is a common thing to hear about Russia’s consecration and how we will never have peace until Russia is consecrated. Every approved apparition is discussed as tenets of the faith. I am constantly given hand-outs on different apparitions.

Even though I know the Church says that belief in personal revelations are optional, I don’t see the Church stating much about excesses.

 

[Perth21]

And that something may very well be from Satan.

All false religions have adherents that believe they have experienced miraculous verification of the truth of their religion, from Hinduism to Mohammedanism; Mormonism relies on it exclusively (“read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, and the Holy Spirit will give you a burning in the bosom”: quite obviously these religions all have some sort of Spirit working in them, and it is just as obvious that these spirits are not Holy). Faith and subjective experience do not establish, or even provide evidence, for the truth-value of a claim: faith and subjective experience can and must only proceed from and affirm that which is already established through reason.

To rely on subjective experience for religion, or to attempt to interpret private revelation, is a very dangerous path: it may lead to the Devil, who appears even to the elect as an angel of light, or even down the broad path to the wide gates of fideism itself. Faith illumines reason and reason illumines faith; faith without reason is blind faith, and easily misled, which oft becomes reactionary and fundamentalist, rejecting all that does not affirm it; reason without faith leads to Deism at best, but more often with secularist materialism in tow.

True, and I know about that, I once fell for it… I once left Catholicism for Islam… I made the mistake, and I know the Spirit that saved my life that day I was depressed and that I am talking about in the experience above is not the same as the one that made me go to Islam… it felt different… I don’t know how, because I don’t pretend to know how these things work… but I just knew it was Jesus. The voice that I felt inside, not in my head, not a physical voice, but a more intense voice, it was like, like it was inside me and yet it echoed around me at the same time, and it told me not to fear, it made me feel humble and it stopped my tears, it stopped my pain, then this was followed by messages He sent me in my head, I knew it was Him, He didn’t even have to say it, and it was in a way like I could picture Him, but not see Him either in my head or physically, I can’t explain that either… the room was filled with a radiance and I felt sort of out of my body, or at least felt lighter, like all my sins and worries and fears had been lifted in His presence, it cleansed me… He made me lie in my bed and I turned on my tv and tried to relax as constant uncontrollable thoughts about love and hope and salvation went across my head, and the tv turned on to a Christian movie, and the message of it just seemed to match perfectly with the suffering I was going through, it was also in a way like He was not only speaking to me through His presence, but He was relaying a message to me through the movie. I don’t ask you to believe me, I don’t ask you to be offended either. I ask you to respect me, and to understand I’m not here to threaten people… like the last person to comment thought… and I’m not here to say to listen to EVERY spirit, because yes, there are bad spirits out there… I’m not here to be judged by you either, or have my experienced judged either, I can’t express in words what I felt and I know happened that day, and I can’t explain either how it differed from that spirit that guided me to Islam in the first place… all I can say about that one was that it drove me with false promises and with a fear of failing and burning in hell that was so terrible, it drove me with a fear for it too… meanwhile, Jesus took away my fear and I won’t say He gave me comfort only, because to be honest, His very presence was comfort. My point is only to encourage people that know honestly in their hearts that if they do experience something they know is real because they truly know and felt the presence of Jesus, well, that they can hold true to that and not feel like they need to prove it to anyone, for it was already proven to themselves… And yes, you do know the difference from Jesus and from the demonic spirits which tempt you to other ways… I knew deep in my heart Islam was wrong, but the fear I had for this spirit got a hold for me that maybe it was indeed who it said it was and that maybe Islam was the right way… I don’t know if you know this, but when God appeared to prophets in the Bible, He always told them to fear not… meanwhile, when the spirit met Mohammed in the cave and told him to recite, Mohammed was stricken by fear and ran back to his wife Khadijah.

 

[Marybeloved]

to those that feel they have had experiences of apparitions, doubt not, you felt them/saw them for a reason, and the important thing isn’t necessarily to prove it to the church or the world, but to keep that faith you acquired from it, because that is why it is there. So to those that feel like they experienced something, then hold on to that feeling, because God is watching over you, and chances are, you felt that something for a reason!

My friend, this is very dangerous advice you’re offering here. It may very well be that you had a genuine mystical experience- the knowing you describe may be contemplation, I don’t really know. But don’t think that a spiritual director wouldn’t know. The reason we say these things is because it’s the collective wisdom of the Saints for millenia- do you really want to ignore their advice?

You’re right- God takes care of us, and many ways he does that is to provide proper guidance in the Church and in spiritual life. Don’t think that you don’t need the guidance. Pray and ask God and seek earnestly (even the lay orders) you’ll find guidance. All the Saints tell us never to lean on our own understanding or to trust ourselves- You may be totally convinced of something that’s not true- so seek guidance.

Peace!

 

[Perth21]

And that something may very well be from Satan.

All false religions have adherents that believe they have experienced miraculous verification of the truth of their religion, from Hinduism to Mohammedanism; Mormonism relies on it exclusively (“read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, and the Holy Spirit will give you a burning in the bosom”: quite obviously these religions all have some sort of Spirit working in them, and it is just as obvious that these spirits are not Holy). Faith and subjective experience do not establish, or even provide evidence, for the truth-value of a claim: faith and subjective experience can and must only proceed from and affirm that which is already established through reason.

To rely on subjective experience for religion, or to attempt to interpret private revelation, is a very dangerous path: it may lead to the Devil, who appears even to the elect as an angel of light, or even down the broad path to the wide gates of fideism itself. Faith illumines reason and reason illumines faith; faith without reason is blind faith, and easily misled, which oft becomes reactionary and fundamentalist, rejecting all that does not affirm it; reason without faith leads to Deism at best, but more often with secularist materialism in tow.

I’m also sorry if I came out a little cross or offended in that last reply, and I didn’t realize you’re an ex muslim too… I apologize, I just got sort of surprised that I am trying to help people to value their experiences with the good apparitions or connections with God and the two replies I receive so far seem to be judging me and attacking me, the first stating that I was threatening people, when why on earth would I threaten? How could I threaten? And the other seems to blow what I was saying out of proportion and make it look like I was saying trust every spirit including the bad ones… So again, I apologize if I sounded annoyed or irritated, I don’t mean to cause harm and I just wanted to help… I don’t pretend to be an expert in apparitions and in spirits, but what I was trying to say came from a personal experience that changed my life and came from the heart, with no bad intention, and was just simply misinterpreted. So again, I say sorry… and yes, you’re right in the sense that we do have to watch out for evil spirits and not be tempted, however, it doesn’t mean that we must shut out and reject the True Presence of Christ when He does come to us. In the end, even if it wasn’t Jesus or Mary, but you’re still getting closer to God, then even if it was a bad spirit, it failed to harm you because it only strengthened your resolve to be a stronger follower of Christ! If anything however, take my experience… would an evil spirit really bring me that comfort? I actually felt no fear, evil spirits take strength from fear! Possessions, hauntings, creating a false religion, all these relied on fear from the spirit, you yourself should know this as an ex-muslim! Yes, the rest may be disguised as good deeds and monotheism for the one true God, yet the fear remains which is different than how God has revealed Himself in the Bible! I’m not saying not to fear God, for we should, we should be afraid of His might! however, He is comforting, He is peace, He is love, and He has shown this through His introduction to prophets, ‘Fear not, I am with you, I am your God!’ this is also like what resonated in my life that day that changed my life, and it is also what I have heard in other cases from people who’ve also experienced Him!

 

[Perth21]

My friend, this is very dangerous advice you’re offering here. It may very well be that you had a genuine mystical experience- the knowing you describe may be contemplation, I don’t really know. But don’t think that a spiritual director wouldn’t know. The reason we say these things is because it’s the collective wisdom of the Saints for millenia- do you really want to ignore their advice?

You’re right- God takes care of us, and many ways he does that is to provide proper guidance in the Church and in spiritual life. Don’t think that you don’t need the guidance. Pray and ask God and seek earnestly (even the lay orders) you’ll find guidance. All the Saints tell us never to lean on our own understanding or to trust ourselves- You may be totally convinced of something that’s not true- so seek guidance.

Peace!

Yes, you are right, seek guidance, but remember, some of these experiences are not to tell you to do something in a particular way, some of these, like the one I went through, are simply to change your life, give you faith, and help you hang in there.

ps. I don’t think I explained really well what happened… basically I had come back from a crisis of faith… I had failed Jesus and had become a Muslim for 10 months of my life, I was misled… after I came back I confessed, felt forgiven, and felt happy to be a Catholic again… however, my life took a downturn and I was having a harsh experience… I don’t want to go into details because it hurts to think of it, but I was alone, and was thinking that maybe I should just end it, maybe I should just end my life, stop causing trouble, stop hurting those I love, etc… I was on my knees alone in my home, my parents were out, I had no one to turn to but Christ, and I would beg for an answer, but it wouldn’t come… if you’ve ever seen Bruce Almighty, I had reached a crisis much like Bruce did where I still believed in God, I just didn’t know if He loved me… I was wrong to doubt, I know, but I was feeling so hopeless and had broken down to a horrible extent that I was crawling on my knees and just wanted to die… but then I felt something, a presence, not in the room, inside me, and yet at the same time around me, everywhere… I don’t know if that makes sense… The room felt brighter, and I felt a wave of pacifism, I don’t know, it was soothing, like I was suddenly happy, happier than I’ve ever been in my life, and I felt like a little kid… and He was there… I don’t know how to explain it, He wasn’t physically there, but at the same time He was there in a different way… He was in me, and around me, yet I could not hear an audible voice, or see His light, not with my eyes… but inside, and outside… in my soul (I guess that’s what it was) I felt Him calling to me, telling me to not cry and to have faith, to have faith and be strong, because it all happens for a reason… because He was with me and my hard experiences were for a reason! Yet I could not hear that, I felt that… it was not physical… ugh, I can’t explain it!!! it’s frustrating!!! but it was so amazing! And He told me not to fear, and I knew it was Jesus, He let me know, yet I did not see Him, and He delivered signs through me, through passages in the Bible which I had never even seen before… through movies on television… through His voice inside/outside/wherever it was which I felt with me, and I felt relieved… Suddenly He had my tears of depression and wanting to end my life go away… and then after a while, I realised how much He loves me, and how He really did want me to be strong and how He has a path for me and that it was all happening for a reason, and I felt guilt for having been angry at Him, and I could feel Him there, already forgiving me, but I just couldn’t help it, I cried even more, but it was a combination of tears of shame and tears of joy, joy that He was here, in my room!!! with me, after I felt so unimportant, here was Jesus caring for me! after I got angry at Him and said He had abandoned me and was about to commit the horrible sin of suicide, and He saved me! And after that I did not doubt Christ any more… after that I vowed not to leave Christianity again, not to stop being a Catholic. After that, I’ve learned to become a better Christian, I’ve gotten closer to Him, and He’s inspired a lot of good in my life… Maybe you will understand my story now, maybe, maybe you’ll see I’m no trying to mislead others, I’m just trying to stress how amazing Christ is! How incredible He is in the way He works! And how even when you have lost hope in Him, He hasn’t on you, and He is still willing to save you!