Interesting discovery of a Jewish/Catholic nature

[Sepharad]

There are any number of people one might regard as a ‘great teacher’ (Buddha, Confucius, for example) without taking their teachings on board in one’s own belief structures).

I agree; that’s basically what I was saying.

I remember someone once saying (about Jesus’ teachings) that “what he said that was true, was not new…and what he said that was new, was not true” (this from a Jewish POV, of course.)

 

[Eden]

Actually, there are a number of Jews and Jewish leaders (usually of the more liberal, ecumenical persuasion) who regard Jesus as a great teacher (such as Dr Amy-Jill Levine, Professor of New Testament Studies; I forget which university she teaches at).

Vanderbilt University Divinity School

 

[rinnie]

Well, you don’t imagine that I agree with any of that!

No not really, if you wont believe in Jesus you sure as heck arent going to listen to me. Oh well, God Bless.

 

[Sepharad]

No not really, if you wont believe in Jesus you sure as heck arent going to listen to me. Oh well, God Bless.

Oh well, looks like another thread that started out good has now degenerated into yet another “Why won’t Jews accept Jesus?” beat-it-into-the-ground thread. I don’t know why I ever had any hope it wouldn’t.

 

[rinnie]

Oh well, looks like another thread that started out good has now degenerated into yet another “Why won’t Jews accept Jesus?” beat-it-into-the-ground thread. I don’t know why I ever had any hope it wouldn’t.

No please i dont want that i am going to bow out gracefully, and let the thread go on, Thats just what i wanted to avoid an argument i know Jesus wouldnt want me to do that. So please move on i promise i wont be back. Again God Bless and i hope this goes well for your guys.

 

[dessert]

Christ’s Will to Gather Jerusalem’s Children (1)

A reader asks for the explanation of Christ’s words in Matthew 23:37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”

This text has been abused by Pelagians, Semi-Pelagians, Arminians and Well-Meant Offer men to teach that God desires to save all the people of Jerusalem (and, by extension, everybody in the world) but many of them perish. “See,” the Well-Meant Offer men say, “Christ wished to save Jerusalem, but they would not let Him. Here is a universal desire of God for the salvation of everybody.” The Arminians go a step further: “Thus there is no reprobation of some and no election of others. Also God’s grace must be resistible, for, though God wanted to save everybody, man’s will stopped Him.”

However, Christ does not say that He willed to gather Jerusalem but Jerusalem resisted. Nor does He say that He willed to gather Jerusalem’s children but Jerusalem’s children resisted. Christ says that He willed to gather Jerusalem’s children but Jerusalem resisted. Christ speaks here of two different groups: Jerusalem and Jerusalem’s children. He says different things about these two groups: Jerusalem killed and stoned God’s prophets and messengers; Christ willed to gather Jerusalem’s children; Jerusalem did not will that Christ gather Jerusalem’s children.

What is meant by Jerusalem here? Jerusalem refers to the religious leaders of Israel, the scribes and Pharisees. Read Matthew 23; Christ denounces the “scribes and Pharisees [as] hypocrites” (cf. esp. 13, 14, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29). They are Jerusalem, as the religious representatives of the people. This form of speech is used frequently, for example, “Washington” is often used for the political leaders of the US.

Jerusalem’s children are not the leaders but those led, the common people. Like children, the common people were not learned and needed religious guidance. They are the ones Christ willed to gather under His wings of salvation (cf. Ps. 17:8; 91:4). To speak even more precisely, they are the true children of the heavenly Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26), the ones whom the Son of man “came to seek and to save” (Luke 19:10), the ones given to Christ by His Father (John 6:37, 39).

Christ willed to save Jerusalem’s children but Jerusalem (the religious leaders) did not will it. This does not mean that they thwarted Christ’s will. After Christ says that He willed to gather Jerusalem’s children, He does not say that they thwarted Him. Instead, He says, “ye would not!” These words alone do not say whether or not the scribes and Pharisees managed to stop Christ gathering His children. Instead, they expose the wickedness of the religious leaders. Their whole calling, as teachers in God’s church, was to work for the gathering of God’s children. But when the Messiah came to gather His children, they opposed His work: “ye would not!” No wonder Christ cursed them: “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate” (Matt. 23:38). Rev. Angus Stewart

Just thought I would add this bit of sermon on the thought of Christ wanting to gather Jerusalem’s children

 

[dessert]

But Christ rose from the dead, so he did not die in vain.

<< Galatians 2 >>
Douay-Rheims Bible
1 Then, after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also with me. 2 And I went up according to revelation; and communicated to them the gospel, which I preach among the Gentiles, but apart to them who seemed to be some thing: lest perhaps I should run, or had run in vain. 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Gentile, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 But because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privately to spy our liberty, which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into servitude. 5 To whom we yielded not by subjection, no not for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But of them who seemed to be some thing, (what they were some time, it is nothing to me, God accepteth not the person of man,) for to me they that seemed to be some thing added nothing. 7 But contrariwise, when they had seen that to me was committed the gospel of the uncircumcision, as to Peter was that of the circumcision. 8 (For he who wrought in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, wrought in me also among the Gentiles.) 9 And when they had known the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship: that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision: 10 Only that we should be mindful of the poor: which same thing also I was careful to do.

11 But when Cephas was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that some came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them who were of the circumcision. 13 And to his dissimulation the rest of the Jews consented, so that Barnabas also was led by them into that dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly unto the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all: If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as the Jews do, how dost thou compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

**15 We by nature are Jews, and not of the Gentiles sinners. 16 But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 But if while we seek to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners; is Christ then the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build up again the things which I have destroyed, I make myself a prevaricator. 19 For I, through the law, am dead to the law, that I may live to God: with Christ I am nailed to the cross. 20 And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me. 21 I cast not away the grace of God. For if justice be by the law, then Christ died in vain. **

 

[Eden]

Oh well, looks like another thread that started out good has now degenerated into yet another “Why won’t Jews accept Jesus?” beat-it-into-the-ground thread. I don’t know why I ever had any hope it wouldn’t.

Not really. The poster didn’t ask why Kaninchen won’t accept Jesus. They made a statement conceding the fact that Kaninchen won’t be open to any further comments about it then and seemed to be bowing out at that point to prevent the thread from diversion. That’s how it seemed to me, anyway.

 

[Lev23]

Actually, there are a number of Jews and Jewish leaders (usually of the more liberal, ecumenical persuasion) who regard Jesus as a great teacher (such as Dr Amy-Jill Levine, Professor of New Testament Studies; I forget which university she teaches at). But even they recognize that almost everything he taught had been taught by other rabbis before him. For someone without a background in Judaism and Jewish teachings, his sayings seem rather profound, but when you are familiar with Jewish teachings and sayings, you recognize them as things that had been said before, by others.

Jesus was supposed to sound like the “Jewish Fathers” of old, and he did.

**Psalm 78:1-3
O my people, hear my teaching;
listen to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter hidden things, things from of old-
what we have heard and known,
what our fathers have told us. **

Thanks for pointing this out!

 

[Lev23]

Oh well, looks like another thread that started out good has now degenerated into yet another “Why won’t Jews accept Jesus?” beat-it-into-the-ground thread. I don’t know why I ever had any hope it wouldn’t.

Started out good for who?

I believe it is important for Christians to always remember the Jewish roots of their faith.

But, to be fair, you must admit that you are implying Christians, to be more exact for this thread, Catholics, simply weaved their religion and testimony of Jesus as Messiah together by “copy and pasting” from Jewish Orthodox traditions.

I then thought of the NT portrayal of God alighting on Jesus’ shoulder in the form of a dove, and realized that was where the first Christians got the idea for the dove portrayal from!

 

[Sepharad]

This thread is for information regarding similarities between Jewish and Catholic practices.

 

[Polaris]

Thank you. I love this kind of information. It really is fun to see how much christianity borrowed from its jewish heritage.

Though the more I lean the more I think it would be safer and easier just to be a Noahide

 

[Sepharad]

But, to be fair, you must admit that you are implying Christians, to be more exact for this thread, Catholics, simply weaved their religion and testimony of Jesus as Messiah together by “copy and pasting” from Jewish Orthodox traditions.

Well frankly, that would be how most Jews would see it, if they are knowledgeable of the similarities between Jewish and Christian practices. We just don’t see the similarities the same ways you do…as “foreshadowings”, “fulfillments”, “completions”, etc. We see it as perhaps historians would too: borrowings of the daughter religion from the mother religion.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This thread is for information regarding similarities between Jewish and Catholic practices.

I love you man!

can you find some more? what about the priesthood? sacrifice of the Mass? and sacrifice made by jewish priests, any similarities?

 

[dessert]

In the Jewish tradition the dove appears as a symbol of God’s glory. The cloud signifying the glory of God and the dove are connected. The image of the dove was highly beneficial to highlight the movement of the Holy Spirit. The echo of God’s voice in the temple (Bath Qol) was considered to be like the cooing of a dove. The Jews desired the proselytes to come under the wings of God’s glory. The dove was also, for them, the symbol of the Logos and wisdom. In several works of the Jews the Holy Spirit is compared to the dove (eg. Ezra 5:26).

. The Fathers of the Church have described the souls of martrys flying away in the form of a dove at the moment of their death. The reason for this is that the believers are the temples of the Holy Spirit. Jesus says, “Be as innocent as doves” (Mt 10:16). Origen and Cyril of Alexandria call the believers “doves”. St Cyril sees the doves offered in the temple at Jesus’s purification ( Lk 2:24) as symbol of his death. The ancient Fathers of the Church viewed and cherished the Word made flesh as a dove. That was why the vessels for the Eucharist were made in the form of a dove in the early Church.

It was when Jesus was praying that the Holy Spirit descended on him in the form of a dove (Lk 3:21-22). **The soul that dissolves in God through prayer comes into the glory of the dove that is the Spirit. **

Yes Sepharad we do have someone in common.

 

[Sepharad]

In the Jewish tradition the dove appears as a symbol of God’s glory. The cloud signifying the glory of God and the dove are connected. The image of the dove was highly beneficial to highlight the movement of the Holy Spirit. The echo of God’s voice in the temple (Bath Qol) was considered to be like the cooing of a dove. The Jews desired the proselytes to come under the wings of God’s glory. The dove was also, for them, the symbol of the Logos and wisdom. In several works of the Jews the Holy Spirit is compared to the dove (eg. Ezra 5:26).

. The Fathers of the Church have described the souls of martrys flying away in the form of a dove at the moment of their death. The reason for this is that the believers are the temples of the Holy Spirit. Jesus says, “Be as innocent as doves” (Mt 10:16). Origen and Cyril of Alexandria call the believers “doves”. St Cyril sees the doves offered in the temple at Jesus’s purification ( Lk 2:24) as symbol of his death. The ancient Fathers of the Church viewed and cherished the Word made flesh as a dove. That was why the vessels for the Eucharist were made in the form of a dove in the early Church.

It was when Jesus was praying that the Holy Spirit descended on him in the form of a dove (Lk 3:21-22). **The soul that dissolves in God through prayer comes into the glory of the dove that is the Spirit. **

Yes Sepharad we do have someone in common.

That was such a beautiful post, thank you for it! It highlights what Jews and Christians have in common…the ruach ha’kodesh (holy spirit!)

 

[dessert]

That was such a beautiful post, thank you for it! It highlights what Jews and Christians have in common…the ruach ha’kodesh (holy spirit!)

Your welcome I too am pleased and sorry things went so wrong
It is late here I must retire to sleep I have a busy day tomorrow.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I made a very interesting discovery.

Very nice. Thanks for the post.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Very interesting post, thank you.

Actually, there are a number of Jews and Jewish leaders (usually of the more liberal, ecumenical persuasion) who regard Jesus as a great teacher (such as Dr Amy-Jill Levine, Professor of New Testament Studies; I forget which university she teaches at). But even they recognize that almost everything he taught had been taught by other rabbis before him. For someone without a background in Judaism and Jewish teachings, his sayings seem rather profound, but when you are familiar with Jewish teachings and sayings, you recognize them as things that had been said before, by others.

Here’s how renowned scholar Huston Smith describes Jesus’ connection to what came before him:

There has been a great deal of controversy over the originality of Jesus’ teachings. Possibly the most balanced view is that of the great Jewish scholar Joseph Klausner. If you take the teachings of Jesus separately, he wrote, you can find every one of them paralleled in either the Old Testament or its commentary, the Talmud. But if you take them as a whole, they have an urgency, an ardent, vivid quality, an abandon, and above all a complete absence of second-rate material that makes them refreshingly new. --The Worlds Religions (1991)

Also, historians are not privy to a lot of what was going on during Jesus’ time. I don’t know if you saw this in the other thread, but the recent finding in the article below purports that, even the idea that a “suffering messiah would rise after three days” was an idea that may have developed before Jesus.

nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

Jesus was firmly rooted in Jewish tradition and was also rooted in a dissident Jewish theological culture that had developed before His birth and was thriving in His time. Prophesy was never a mainstream event according to my understanding of it. I believe this dissident culture made ready His coming, were probably the bulk of who followed Him during His life, and would be His initial followers after His death. I would include as examples of dissident cultures the followers of John the Babtist and those who inhabited Qumran at that time (apparently, the colony at Qumran saw increased activity–basically a revival–in the year 4 BC). Can you even imagine how intensely the people of Qumran prayed for a Messiah? Yes, the people made ready and the time was ripe.

 

[Sepharad]

I agree with Klausner…the way Jesus explained the ideas he quoted from other Jewish sources was refreshingly new in many aspects…there is a Christian theologian whose name escapes me right now, but he said that the way he always expressed it was, “Jesus provided a different ‘take’ on things”.

I agree!

And yes, I did see that news item about the possibility of a Jewish belief at one time, that a messiah would suffer and die, and be resurrected after 3 days. (I didn’t see it here, but on the NY Times site). The “jury is still out” on this, however, and more research has to be done (so the article said.)

If there is anything remotely about that in Jewish writings, it would most likely be in Jewish mystical writings (Kabbalah, etc), which not all Jews accept. It does seem that MUCH of what Jesus said came from the large repository of the Jewish mystical teachings anyway, which makes sense since the Galilee was a “hotbed” of Kabbalah study in his day (which might be why he chose to start his ministry there…the Kabbalah teaches that a messiah would arise from the Galilee area. Perhaps Jesus saw himself as one such messiah?)