Interesting discovery of a Jewish/Catholic nature

[Ed_Rand]

It does seem that MUCH of what Jesus said came from the large repository of the Jewish mystical teachings anyway, which makes sense since the Galilee was a “hotbed” of Kabbalah study in his day (which might be why he chose to start his ministry there…the Kabbalah teaches that a messiah would arise from the Galilee area. Perhaps Jesus saw himself as one such messiah?)

I imagine He did. I think that was exactly what he was after… to fulfill the hopes and dreams of countless Jews in their hour of most desperate need.

It is possible that Jesus fulfilled many expectations that we have no knowledge about. The idea of a suffering messiah has never been accepted by mainstream Jewish thought, correct? There is a difference in interpretation and sources that can be traced back throughout the centuries. We will never know much of what Jesus may have been exposed to or how prevalent dissident Jewish theology was at the time. My guess? Sufficiently prevalent.

 

[Eden]

The Kabbalah angle is interesting. The way we have traditionally understood it, the commencement of Jesus’ ministry in Galilee was a fulfillment of messianic prophecy.

Scripture Catholic includes the parallels between Isaiah 9:1 and Matt 4:12-17 on this page:

scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

Here is one Biblical commentary on the topic:

What is so important about Capernaum and Galilee that Matthew makes such a point of telling us about these places?

Matthew wants his readers to know that Jesus’ withdrawal to Galilee was no mistake; it was, in fact, the fulfillment of prophecy, another proof that Jesus is the promised Messiah.

1 The gloom will be dispelled for those who were anxious. In earlier times he humiliated the land of Zebulun, and the land of Naphtali; but now he brings honor to the way of the sea, the region beyond the Jordan, and Galilee of the nations.

2 The people walking in darkness see a bright light; light shines on those who live in a land of deep darkness (Isaiah 9:1-2).
With some variations from the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, Matthew cites the first two verses of Isaiah 9.

In chapter 8, Isaiah warned of the coming invasion of the Assyrians, which would sack the Northern Kingdom and threaten Judah. Now in chapter 9, Isaiah speaks of a coming day of salvation and deliverance. While the more immediate deliverance will be a return to the land of Israel, Matthew sees the ultimate deliverance in the coming of Messiah. It is Matthew alone who points to our Lord’s withdrawal into Galilee as the fulfillment of prophecy.

bible.org/page.php?page_id=1062#P1084_377134

 

[Sepharad]

The viewpoint of many Jewish scholars (and Jews like me) is that perhaps Jesus, through study of the Kabbalah and the prophetical words of the Tanakh, *saw himself *as the promised messiah, and so did things accordingly so as to “fit” them. For example, he told his followers to go get a donkey so he could ride into Jerusalem. This was designed to “fit” Zechariah 9:9. There are many other examples where he told people things, or to do certain things, and he followed it with a comment that led me to believe he was saying it to “fit” this or that prophecy.

I realize Christians don’t see it this way, but I can think of many examples in the NT where it does sound as if that was what he was doing.

 

[Claudius]

In something unrelated, I was also researching the Shekinah (a feminine Hebrew term for the Presence of God)…it said the Shekinah in Judaism was always represented as a dove. I then thought of the NT portrayal of God alighting on Jesus’ shoulder in the form of a dove, and realized that was where the first Christians got the idea for the dove portrayal from!

The Shekinah (feminine aspect of God) is also referred to in Judaism as the ruach ha’kodesh, which is Hebrew for holy spirit (Christian term).

This bit is interesting to think about yet I don’t think it is much more then a distant relation and is probably a coincidence. In Greek as well as Latin and Syriac the words that are used to describe the Holy Spirit are Masculine. The word used to describe the dove if I remember correctly is also Masculine. Not that I or the Church are against women at all but I just don’t see the solid connection here and the dove appearing above Lord Jesus was a real event that did happen and was witnessed.

I do agree though, more Catholics should study our Syriac and Hebrew origins. Most of us would be shocked to know that most Syriac (modern Aramaic) speakers in the world are one kind of Catholic or another.

 

[wisdomseeker]

The viewpoint of many Jewish scholars (and Jews like me) is that perhaps Jesus, through study of the Kabbalah and the prophetical words of the Tanakh, *saw himself *as the promised messiah, and so did things accordingly so as to “fit” them. For example, he told his followers to go get a donkey so he could ride into Jerusalem. This was designed to “fit” Zechariah 9:9. There are many other examples where he told people things, or to do certain things, and he followed it with a comment that led me to believe he was saying it to “fit” this or that prophecy.

I realize Christians don’t see it this way, but I can think of many examples in the NT where it does sound as if that was what he was doing.

How about the Angel who appeared to Mary and said that she would bear a son adn he would be called the Son of the most High?

How about John the Baptist testifying of Him also?

how about Jesus being taken into the Temple as a baby?

if you dont think that Jesus knew who He was? how do you explain all this adn more?

how about in the beginning when God said that a virgen would bear a son?

 

[Sepharad]

How about the Angel who appeared to Mary and said that she would bear a son adn he would be called the Son of the most High?

How about John the Baptist testifying of Him also?

how about Jesus being taken into the Temple as a baby?

if you dont think that Jesus knew who He was? how do you explain all this adn more?

how about in the beginning when God said that a virgen would bear a son?

Please don’t be offended by this, remember that this is coming from the viewpoint of someone who does not adhere to your scriptures as Divinely inspired.

The truth is, I don’t know for certain that those incidents historically took place. The NT was not written to be an historical work, but a work of faith.

If Jesus was taken into the Temple as a baby, it was most likely for his brit milah (circumcision). ALL Jewish babies are circumcised, not just him.

And quite frankly, the story of an angel appearing to Mary, and many of the details surrounding that, seem to be taken right out of the story of the angel appearing to the mother of Samson, in the Book of Judges in the Jewish Bible. In fact I suspect that is where the NT writers got things confused, because they evidently had that story in mind when writing down the NT version, because they seemed to confuse the meanings of the terms, “Nazarene” and “nazarite”.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Please don’t be offended by this, remember that this is coming from the viewpoint of someone who does not adhere to your scriptures as Divinely inspired.

The truth is, I don’t know for certain that those incidents historically took place. The NT was not written to be an historical work, but a work of faith.

If Jesus was taken into the Temple as a baby, it was most likely for his brit milah (circumcision). ALL Jewish babies are circumcised, not just him.

And quite frankly, the story of an angel appearing to Mary, and many of the details surrounding that, seem to be taken right out of the story of the angel appearing to the mother of Samson, in the Book of Judges in the Jewish Bible. In fact I suspect that is where the NT writers got things confused, because they evidently had that story in mind when writing down the NT version, because they seemed to confuse the meanings of the terms, “Nazarene” and “nazarite”.

Oh no. i am not offended at all. i was just pointing out to you the events surrounding Jesus life.

the plot of the NT, it sure has a lot of events. dont you agree?
how do you think that all these people got together and made up all these events including the apostles given their lives?

 

[Christine_Blake]

That doesnt surprise me much, alot of the Catholic and Jewish faith is alike. To be honest alot of the Catholic faith is based on the Jewish faith(OT). If the truth me known we have alot more in common with the Jewish faith than any other. Its just the NT when the differences begin,

I agree - This is not a surprise, since Jesus was a practicing Jew and the Christians did not split from the Jewish church until 93 or 94 CE…I forget what exact year, but it was well after the resurrection…

 

[Sepharad]

Oh no. i am not offended at all. i was just pointing out to you the events surrounding Jesus life.

the plot of the NT, it sure has a lot of events. dont you agree?
how do you think that all these people got together and made up all these events including the apostles given their lives?

With all due respect, the early Christians are not the only religious people to give their lives for what they believed in. It has happened many times throughout history, but that does not mean those religions were also true.

Rabbi Akiva died the death of a martyr, burned alive while wrapped by the Romans in the scrolls of the Holy Torah which he had been caught teaching children from.

Tibetan Buddhist monks have been tortured and killed by the Red Chinese for teaching their faith and not following Communism.

People in ALL religions have often been willing to die as martyrs for their faith. Christians don’t have a monopoly on that.

I’m just showing you how it looks from the perspective of a non-Christian. What appears obvious to a Christian, is not always so obvious to others.

 

[Verisimilitude]

I’m just showing you how it looks from the perspective of a non-Christian. What appears obvious to a Christian, is not always so obvious to others.

Do you have any idea how many Jews lived in Israel at the time of Christ? The Gospels record Christs ministry as lasting 3 years and He was specifically addressing Jews. the Gospels record a few instances saying thousands believed and accepted. Before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, do you (or anyone) have any idea of what the % of Jews became Christian?

Today there are approximately 15 million Jews out of the 6+ billion on the planet. Accounting for the many tragedies that has afflicted the Jews as a people in the last 2000 years I am curious if the numbers today were anywhere similar then.

 

[wisdomseeker]

With all due respect, the early Christians are not the only religious people to give their lives for what they believed in. It has happened many times throughout history, but that does not mean those religions were also true.

Rabbi Akiva died the death of a martyr, burned alive while wrapped by the Romans in the scrolls of the Holy Torah which he had been caught teaching children from.

Tibetan Buddhist monks have been tortured and killed by the Red Chinese for teaching their faith and not following Communism.

People in ALL religions have often been willing to die as martyrs for their faith. Christians don’t have a monopoly on that.

I’m just showing you how it looks from the perspective of a non-Christian. What appears obvious to a Christian, is not always so obvious to others.

yes i am aware of this.

but the subject here is the Life and death of a man with mighty claims such as: Son of God, I am the way the Truth and the Light, no one to comes to the Father but through me, I am the light of he World, I came that you may have life, I am the manah from Heaven, and so on…

that is what i am talking about. Jesus and no other.

how do you explain that all those events were made up by so many people? at least that is wht have implied that those people aparently got together and made the story of Jesus. am i wrong?

 

[Sepharad]

yes i am aware of this.

but the subject here is the Life and death of a man with mighty claims such as: Son of God, I am the way the Truth and the Light, no one to comes to the Father but through me, I am the light of he World, I came that you may have life, I am the manah from Heaven, and so on…

that is what i am talking about. Jesus and no other.

how do you explain that all those events were made up by so many people? at least that is wht have implied that those people aparently got together and made the story of Jesus. am i wrong?

I honestly don’t know if they did or not. There are other religions with similar leaders with similar claims. Can they all be right?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I honestly don’t know if they did or not. There are other religions with similar leaders with similar claims. Can they all be right?

where? in the land of Israel?

did these people who claim the same thing Jesus did come to fullfil the promise of Our God too? you know the promise of the Messiah?

 

[Lev23]

I honestly don’t know if they did or not. There are other religions with similar leaders with similar claims. Can they all be right?

Christianity is NOT like other religions. For the Church of the God of Israel claims Jesus is that “Prophet like unto Moses.”

**Deuteronomy 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.

John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.**

 

[Eden]

If Jesus was taken into the Temple as a baby, it was most likely for his brit milah (circumcision). ALL Jewish babies are circumcised, not just him.

We already know that though:

“On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived. When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, ‘Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord’) and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: ‘a pair of doves or two young pigeons’” (Luke 2:21-24).

 

[Eden]

And quite frankly, the story of an angel appearing to Mary, and many of the details surrounding that, seem to be taken right out of the story of the angel appearing to the mother of Samson, in the Book of Judges in the Jewish Bible.

Yes, but we are aware of these parallels. It is, for us, a bridge between the Old and New Testaments.

This is from EWTN, “Mary The Bridge Between The Old And The New Testaments”:

ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYINSC.htm

Wouldn’t you expect them to be related? It would be more troubling if the New Testament were a completely new entity.

In fact I suspect that is where the NT writers got things confused, because they evidently had that story in mind when writing down the NT version, because they seemed to confuse the meanings of the terms, “Nazarene” and “nazarite”.

You can find a lot about this in biblical commentary. Wikipedia has a little about the topic here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite

 

[Sepharad]

Yes, but we are aware of these parallels. It is, for us, a bridge between the Old and New Testaments.

This is from EWTN, “Mary The Bridge Between The Old And The New Testaments”:

ewtn.com/library/MARY/MARYINSC.htm

Wouldn’t you expect them to be related? It would be more troubling if the New Testament were a completely new entity.

You can find a lot about this in biblical commentary. Wikipedia has a little about the topic here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite

See, this is a difference between Jewish and Christian perspectives: Christians see these similarities as proof of messiahship, we see them as simply copying stories to make things “fit”. No offense meant on our part, its just how it looks to us, esp. since many times, its not a perfect “fit”.

 

[Eden]

See, this is a difference between Jewish and Christian perspectives: Christians see these similarities as proof of messiahship, we see them as simply copying stories to make things “fit”. No offense meant on our part, its just how it looks to us.

I do realize that. But for Christians, the continuity and foreshadowing in the Old Testament make for a coherent bridge into the New. I would expect, with the coming of the Messiah, to see a coherent, logical thread leading throughout the Scriptures, which is what we Christians see.