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ForGood
Guest
I think it was awesome.
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ddarko
Guest
All that good stuff could have happened without the Eucharist being there. Do you not admit that if there were no Catholics at that moment, which is highly possible, the actions would be pretty comedic?
If I was present there, I would honestly think it was a prank to ridicule Catholics and find it offensive.
I think this is an example of people with good intentions but with poor and not well thought out execution.
God Bless
A
At_Trent
Guest
I see nothing negative at all . Sorry, but I disagree. Imo, nothing builds faith in the Real Presence as well as Adoration.All that good stuff could have happened without the Eucharist being there. Do you not admit that if there were no Catholics at that moment, which is highly possible, the actions would be pretty comedic?
If I was present there, I would honestly think it was a prank to ridicule Catholics and find it offensive.
I think this is an example of people with good intentions but with poor and not well thought out execution.
God Bless
As far as no Catholics present, there were certainly at least two. The Friars.
J
JReducation
Guest
Everyone needs to calm down here. You’re looking at tradition, a tradition that goes back 800 years and maybe longer.I think there is an issue with how the Eucharist is being carried in to the area. I just saw the priest throw down the bag with the monstrance containing the Eucharist down on the ground by his feet first. Why not use a Pyx?
That aside, there is the question of ridicule. The audience in that area may not have any Catholics at that moment. Then it becomes an occasion of ridicule of the Eucharist, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Would you take a person you love in to a middle of a group of people who may ridicule him/her because its more than likely they can’t understand who he/she is? You would first try to prepare the people and get them in to a position where they would accept them, right?
So in my opinion, the actions of the individuals in this video are really not praise worthy and should be corrected.
God Bless
We know that the early Christians carried the Blessed Sacrament around with them in a pouch that hung from their neck, because there was no such thing as a safe tabernacle as we know it today.
The custom was resurrected by St. Francis of Assisi in the 1200s, probably around 1209. The friars were mendicants. Franciscans are not a family of priests. Many of our friars, then and now, did not have a priest in the house. When a friar priest was available, he would consecrate and there would always be Eucharist stored in a container that looked like a pill box, not as sophisticated as our modern pyx. This was placed into a pouch and the friars carried it where ever they went, because they did not know when they would next see a friar priest. It could be months, depending on the weather and travel conditions. When they arrived at their destination, they would repose the sacrament in a tabernacle.
In this case, the friars (there were two) carried the Eucharist just like our friars have done for 800 years. Only they put the pyx inside a monstrance. Therefore, the bag has to be larger to fit the monstance. The host is not loose. It is in a pyx, which is fitted into a luna inside the monstrance. When we don’t carry the host in a monstrance, we place it in a pyx and place the pyx in our pocket. In none of the above cases does the host come into contact with anything around it. The worse that could have happened would be for the luna to crack. Then the host would still be protected, because there is a double layer of glass, that of the luna and the pyx inside the luna. What you didn’t see is that inside the bag, there is a poke. The monstrance is inside that poke. You simply pull it out and slip it in.
I saw the friar put it down. He did not drop it or throw it in any way that was irreverent. He put it down as he would have done if he were going to visit a sick person. We don’t move around gingerly when we’re carrying the Blessed Sacrament in a protected bag or pocket. Our movements are natural. You’re always careful not to damage the outer packaging so that the host is not in danger.
As to the ridicule of those around it. If that concerns you, then you have completely missed the mission and meaning of being a Franciscan. Our family was founded to be itinerant mendicants. We begged and preached. We were are not Dominicans, Augustinians or Benedictines who have a long tradition of beautiful houses and churches. That is a novelty that was introduced into the Franciscan world in the 1800s, 600 years after the founding of the order. It was introduced because there was a need to serve the poor in parishes.
Our rule is to take Christ to the middle of the market place where there are people who are beleivers and non believers. Christ is not hurt by the jeers of the non believers. He wants to be there with them and for them. If the friars limited themselves to exposing the Eucharist only to believers, then what makes them different from other religious families?
The friars treated the Blessed Sacrament with great reverence. The friar who held the monstrance was not alone. There was at least a second friar who did the preaching and I believe there may have been a third in the crowd . . . unless the camera spanned the same second friar. You can’t tell, because the habit is the same.
Do not try to pigeon hole religious into the same box. We’re not the same. We were not founded to do the same things or to do them the same way. Rather, try to appreciate the charism of the founder and try to see the founder’s wishes in all of this. Street preching, with or without the Blessed Sacrament is what Francis did and what he wanted his sons to do. If you try to take this away, then you’re consigning us to the “dark ages” of the Franciscan family (1800 to 1965) when we were simply another group of priests. We’re not that.
We are a family of brothers, some are priests and most are not, sent to wander through the world living the Gospel among the poorest of the poor. The poorest of the poor includes those who have no faith, who have been away from their faith or who are weak in their faith. If it’s not possible to bring thes souls into a chapel, then you take the chapel to them.
J
JReducation
Guest
As to protection . . . that’s part of the beauty of the faith that Francis taught us. God provides that. You know, when you say that you would not take a loved one into a situation where he may suffer, you’re perfectly right. You should never do that. That would be unfair to the loved one. But this is Christ. Christ is beyond all suffering. This is his glorified body and blood. He would not suffer no matter what happened. If someone were to do something horrific, it would be detrimental to the person, not to Christ.
Is this a practice that should be done carelessly? No. You take the Blessed Sacrament to a place where you reasonably know that it is safe Sometimes, you have to take him to unsafe places such as the battlefield. Many priests and religious have been killed in the battlefield with the Blessed Sacrament in their pocket. That is never the plan, but it happens.
As Bl. John Paul said, “We cannot be afraid to bring Christ to the people.” St. Francis said, “The Father will provide for the friars, because they are his most simple sons. The friars must simply be faithful.” That’s what these brothers were being. They were faithful to the command to bring Christ to all people in every situation.
Look at the entire tradition, not just our feelings and what we’re used to. That would be unfair to the religious. They have to go back, all the way back to the 13th century. That’s what the Church commands us to do, to go back to the roots and the founders. Please try not to create obstacles and objections when we try to go back. Let the friars be what they were meant to be and do things the way that they were done by their founder.
I’m not the founder of the Dominicans. Therefore, I will not tell a Dominican how to do things. I’m not the founer of the Jesuits, I will not tell them how they are to do things. Each religious family has a founder who gave it a mission and a particular way of executing that mission. To try to make everyone uniform, you may as well eliminate the charisms.
The case is for reverence and love for the Blessed Sacrament. That was not missing here. Also, as I heard after a few weeks, there was a problem with crowd control, so the friars stopped going to that palce. There are going to be many opinions about this. Everyone can have an opinion. However, it is unfair to try to tell a religious order how to do things that they have inherited. That’ s up to their superior. Trust me, no friar leaves a house, even to get fresh air, without the Guardian’s knowledge.
Let the friars try to return to 13th century practices. Pray that we will be able to go back. That will help us all, not just Franciscans. Every community should go back to its roots and traditions.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Is this a practice that should be done carelessly? No. You take the Blessed Sacrament to a place where you reasonably know that it is safe Sometimes, you have to take him to unsafe places such as the battlefield. Many priests and religious have been killed in the battlefield with the Blessed Sacrament in their pocket. That is never the plan, but it happens.
As Bl. John Paul said, “We cannot be afraid to bring Christ to the people.” St. Francis said, “The Father will provide for the friars, because they are his most simple sons. The friars must simply be faithful.” That’s what these brothers were being. They were faithful to the command to bring Christ to all people in every situation.
Look at the entire tradition, not just our feelings and what we’re used to. That would be unfair to the religious. They have to go back, all the way back to the 13th century. That’s what the Church commands us to do, to go back to the roots and the founders. Please try not to create obstacles and objections when we try to go back. Let the friars be what they were meant to be and do things the way that they were done by their founder.
I’m not the founder of the Dominicans. Therefore, I will not tell a Dominican how to do things. I’m not the founer of the Jesuits, I will not tell them how they are to do things. Each religious family has a founder who gave it a mission and a particular way of executing that mission. To try to make everyone uniform, you may as well eliminate the charisms.
The case is for reverence and love for the Blessed Sacrament. That was not missing here. Also, as I heard after a few weeks, there was a problem with crowd control, so the friars stopped going to that palce. There are going to be many opinions about this. Everyone can have an opinion. However, it is unfair to try to tell a religious order how to do things that they have inherited. That’ s up to their superior. Trust me, no friar leaves a house, even to get fresh air, without the Guardian’s knowledge.
Let the friars try to return to 13th century practices. Pray that we will be able to go back. That will help us all, not just Franciscans. Every community should go back to its roots and traditions.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ddarko
Guest
Real presence builds faith of the already believing. I can’t take a Muslim to adoration and expect him to understand let alone believe what is happening.
There is a reason why apostles didn’t go around Eucharist first. They preached and converted people first. They didn’t hold up the Eucharist believing people will understand.
Do you or do you not deny that this kind of stunt to non-Catholics is a comedy or not? I mean honestly. If this was a designated area where Catholics all gather daily to do Eucharistic Adoration, I can see it being valid. But this is random.
God Bless
M
mdkirkbride
Guest
I am sorry I even commented about the duffle bag now. I didn’t mean it as criticism or to imply that the Friar was doing something irreverent or inappropriate. I imagine it was the same feeling of someone who is used to seeing/receiving communion on the tongue only and then seeing it put in the hand. I’ve grown up with communion in the hand so I don’t see the issue that some people have with it.
J
JReducation
Guest
The servant is never greater than the master. When our Holy Father Francis first set out preaching and teaching, everyone though it was a prank, that he was a nut, that he was a heretic and some even threw things at him: stones, garbage and the content of their bedpans. This did not stop him. 800 years later he is venerated by Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims under different titles, but all for the same reason . . . his simplicity, his love, his courage and his fidelity.All that good stuff could have happened without the Eucharist being there. Do you not admit that if there were no Catholics at that moment, which is highly possible, the actions would be pretty comedic?
If I was present there, I would honestly think it was a prank to ridicule Catholics and find it offensive.
I think this is an example of people with good intentions but with poor and not well thought out execution.
God Bless
Almost every itinerant preacher starts as a fool for Christ. Francis never taught us to have well through out plans. Do you know what he said about well thought out plans? He abhored them. He even had a vicar excommunicated for proposiing such heresy. That vicar finally recanted, was received back into the Church and was elected the Minister General after Francis died. He lived and died a holy death. But he learned a lesson in a very hard way. The way of St. Francis does not involve well though out plans. It is spontaneous and filled with love for God, your brothers and the Church. Whatever God, your brothers and the Church allow, you are free to do. Freedom is what makes a Franciscan different from every other Catholic.
Francis did not become a monk or a Dominican, because as holy as the Benedictines and the Dominicans were, they had too many structures. He heard the Lord’s call to be free of structures. That’s how you come to have 114 branches of the one family that he founded. There was only one common element, that was the rule. As long as the friars follow the same rule, the dialy details are going to vary from one place to another, thus preserving the sense of freedom that comes from not being a Benedictine, Dominican, Carmelite or a diocesan priest.
Try to appreciate that freedom which is so essential to this charism. Don’t try to regulate it. The Church certainly does not want to regulate it, except in matters where it is necessary in order to protect the friars.
Look upon them as your brothers the Clowns of God. That’s how Francis referred to his early brothers. The greater the ridicule, the greater the grace that the friars received.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ddarko
Guest
I think you are confusing Tradition with what was happening in that video.Let the friars try to return to 13th century practices. Pray that we will be able to go back. That will help us all, not just Franciscans. Every community should go back to its roots and traditions.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
The Eucharist is allowed to be carried in to battlefields, yes. But that is for the faithful to receive and perhaps engage in adoration during non-battle times.
It is not taken to the battlefield as shock value evangelization. That was never part of Tradition.
Even from the days of the apostles, the formula was to preach, and baptize first. Not have Eucharistic adoration for the non-believers. How is a non-believer really expected to believe what the Eucharist is?
As I said to AtTrent, if this was a routine thing where Catholics are known to gather for adoration at the location, then this is justified. BUT, since this clearly is not, it is highly possible that there would be no Catholics there to begin with. Then it becomes a comedy. As far as a non-Catholic goes, there is a guy with a brown suit and gold structure in his hand. It might as well be a statue of Jesus Christ for all they care. And honestly, is it fair for you and me to expect anything else from them?
God Bless
A
At_Trent
Guest
Sorry, I don’t share your negative opinion. I saw something good.Real presence builds faith of the already believing. I can’t take a Muslim to adoration and expect him to understand let alone believe what is happening.
There is a reason why apostles didn’t go around Eucharist first. They preached and converted people first. They didn’t hold up the Eucharist believing people will understand.
Do you or do you not deny that this kind of stunt to non-Catholics is a comedy or not? I mean honestly. If this was a designated area where Catholics all gather daily to do Eucharistic Adoration, I can see it being valid. But this is random.
God Bless
Jesus told us we would be scorned, hated,and ridiculed. It comes with the territory.
J
JReducation
Guest
Don’t worry about it… Your comment was not offensive. I’m sure that if you had not commented, others had thought it. It was a great opportunity to explain why and how this works, for those who may have wondered about it, but didn’t mention it.
You will never realize how many people you help with a simple comment or question. But God knows how many need to hear the answer and he chose you to be their voice. What a wonderful gift, to be the voice of those who wonder!
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ddarko
Guest
Don’t mean this as disrespect, but St. Francis is not known for his logistics skills. There is really no church doctrine stating “Planing” is heresy. I think while we venerate saints and try to follow their lives, we are truly following the attributes of Christ displayed in them. We do not follow or have to follow every little thing they said and did.
Otherwise we might as well have gospels on each of these saints lives, right?
God Bless
T
TrueLight
Guest
But if you were there, would you kneel before the Lord or not?So in my opinion, the actions of the individuals in this video are really not praise worthy and should be corrected.
God Bless
A
At_Trent
Guest
Please watch the video linked to in my signature.
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ddarko
Guest
By all means, yes, put yourself in ridicule for Christ. Go out and preach for him etc. Have adoration publicly at a fixed designated place where faithful gather.
But don’t get him ridiculed by doing random stuff like this and in the process. That is needless. I think its immoral to do so unless there is no other way. Since this location has enough churches in the surrounding, there is NO NECESSITY to engage in such random acts. Hence it is questionable and immoral. That was my point.
God Bless
M
Melchior_1
Guest
If you read the Bible, John 6 had people ridiculing Christ. They ridiculed him while he was on the Cross as well.
If there was Catholics there with doubt, whose to say they could not pull a Thomas and travel 4775 km’s after acknowledging the Truth? If there was non-believers, whose to say that could not have had a Saul/Paul moment on the road to their destination?
At Trent and I have different perspectives on several items. He is a traditionalist, I’m a charismatic. But I can say without hesitation or reservation* that when he says “nothing builds faith in the Real Presence as well as Adoration” we are in agreement.
*(I’m sure we also would both agree if you had Confession at the same time that’d be pro as well).
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ddarko
Guest
That’s a very good question. I honest wouldn’t know what to do. I won’t even know if this priest is holding a piece of wafer and not the Eucharist. I wouldn’t even know if this is a priest or not. I would even feel like walking up to him and saying, what do you think you are doing?
That is my point here. If this was a routinely designated gathering for the faithful with a fixed venue, then this is fine. But randomness of it just invalidates all of that.
God Bless
A
At_Trent
Guest
lol, some here may wonder why At Trent isn’t stomping up and down considering my CITH viewsDon’t worry about it… Your comment was not offensive. I’m sure that if you had not commented, others had thought it. It was a great opportunity to explain why and how this works, for those who may have wondered about it, but didn’t mention it.
You will never realize how many people you help with a simple comment or question. But God knows how many need to hear the answer and he chose you to be their voice. What a wonderful gift, to be the voice of those who wonder!
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Seriously though, like you have so wonderfully explained, what we are seeing here is a true traditional practice. With all that is going on in the Church these days, it is precisely these sort of things that keep me from giving up on Rome and committing to support of the local SSPX or Independent chapel.
There is still much good in the post VII Church. And a lot of it is being done in a traditional manner.
Deo gratias
D
ddarko
Guest
Once again, it is unnecessary. That is the key point. Unless you can show that the Eucharistic Adoration has to be there first for evangelization, then taking any risk of ridicule is invalidated.
The Eucharist builds the faith of the believer. Not the unbeliever.
Unless one can show that it is an absolute necessity, then there is really no argument for taking the Eucharist first to an event that may lead to ridicule.
God Bless
D
ddarko
Guest
I honestly think you are claiming something that is similar in Tradition as being the same thing that you see here. But they are not.
I am unaware of any Tradition in the church where people randomly take the Eucharist somewhere and randomly start a benediction or adoration session out of the blue.
Eucharistic adoration in public places with designated gathering of faithful is understandable. But random adoration is not.
God Bless
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