Interesting - Eucharistic Flash Mob

[ConstantineTG]

That’s a very good question. I honest wouldn’t know what to do. I won’t even know if this priest is holding a piece of wafer and not the Eucharist. I wouldn’t even know if this is a priest or not. I would even feel like walking up to him and saying, what do you think you are doing?

That is my point here. If this was a routinely designated gathering for the faithful with a fixed venue, then this is fine. But randomness of it just invalidates all of that.

God Bless

I do get what you are saying and I must say that I agree with you. If I was walking around town and this suddenly happened in front of me, I’d be suspicious. Given the number of people today who’d want to ridicule Catholics and Catholicism, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was an attempt to mock our faith. Its cool looking at this video now because we know whats happening. But that is not the case if you were there and it just happened.

 

[At_Trent]

I do get what you are saying and I must say that I agree with you. If I was walking around town and this suddenly happened in front of me, I’d be suspicious. Given the number of people today who’d want to ridicule Catholics and Catholicism, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was an attempt to mock our faith. Its cool looking at this video now because we know whats happening. But that is not the case if you were there and it just happened.

Are you in denial ? Or did you not read Bro. JR’s post ?

He knows this Friar. So it’s safe to say it wasn’t a mocking of Catholicism.

 

[ddarko]

Are you in denial ? Or did you not read Bro. JR’s post ?

He knows this Friar. So it’s safe to say it wasn’t a mocking of Catholicism.

He is not saying that the Friar was mocking Catholicism. He is saying that if it was something he saw on the street, he wouldn’t know if it was mocking or genuine. In fairness, how can one know after all? Not everyone knows Bro. Jr. and the friars he knows.

This is why I keep telling you that it has to be a validly and routinely designated place or gathering. Otherwise there is no way to tell for an observer if its a prank or mocking session.

God Bless

 

[ConstantineTG]

Are you in denial ? Or did you not read Bro. JR’s post ?

He knows this Friar. So it’s safe to say it wasn’t a mocking of Catholicism.

Please read my post again, carefully, and understand what I am saying. I am not saying that this Friar is mocking the faith. I am saying that if this happened while I was walking about town, I would be suspicious and would think its some prank. I do not know this Friar, if Bro. JR was walking with me that day which would be an absolute pleasure, then it would be great for someone to tell me who that was and what’s going on. You are looking at the situation after the fact, I’m relating what my reaction would be when it happened and I was there when it happened.

 

[At_Trent]

Considering the content of the preaching, it is obvious it’s not mockery.

 

[JReducation]

I think you are confusing Tradition with what was happening in that video.

I believe that you’re not understanding tradition. The traditions of the great religious orders are very much a part of the Church’s tradition. What you saw in the video is part of an 800 year tradition. It is not new. What is new is that someone filmed it and put it on YouTube. There was no YouTube 800 years ago.

You’re tyring to change Franciscan tradition. You can’t do that. Only a pope can do that and to ensure that this never happened, in 1223 Pope Honorious sealed the rule and teachings of St. Francis with a Papal Bull. It would require the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for another pope to break the Bull and change what is contained in the tradition.

The Eucharist is allowed to be carried in to battlefields, yes. But that is for the faithful to receive and perhaps engage in adoration during non-battle times.

It is not taken to the battlefield as shock value evangelization. That was never part of Tradition.

“Shock value evangelization” is your term. We have been doing this for 800 years. We don’t consider it shock value evangelization. I, the Church, the Order and others would thank you if you would refrain from such labels.

The fact is that street ministry, with and without the Blessed Sacrament has been a Franciscan custom approved by the Church as early as 1209 and has been practriced since then in different places. All that is needed is the permission of the Guardian of the house. He is the canonical successor of St. Francis and he is to be obeyed in all matters. Whatever he looses for his brothers, is loosed and whatever he bind is bound as long as he remains within the boundaries of what Francis would allow or not allow.

Even from the days of the apostles, the formula was to preach, and baptize first. Not have Eucharistic adoration for the non-believers. How is a non-believer really expected to believe what the Eucharist is?

As I said to AtTrent, if this was a routine thing where Catholics are known to gather for adoration at the location, then this is justified. BUT, since this clearly is not, it is highly possible that there would be no Catholics there to begin with. Then it becomes a comedy. As far as a non-Catholic goes, there is a guy with a brown suit and gold structure in his hand. It might as well be a statue of Jesus Christ for all they care. And honestly, is it fair for you and me to expect anything else from them?

When a Franciscan goes out on mission, he expects nothing but to be ridiculed. If people listen and pay attention, it is a blessing. The Blessed Sacrament is with him and as long as he believes and he adores, the rest does not matter to him, because that’s what Francis taught us and what the Church confirmed when it canonized his teachings.

 

[JReducation]

Don’t mean this as disrespect, but St. Francis is not known for his logistics skills. There is really no church doctrine stating “Planing” is heresy.

No there is no Church doctrine that says that. Francis said it. It was a heresy for his brothers to engage in it any more than is required by the Church. For that reason, he had men excommunicated, because they wanted to plan more than he believed was necessary and the Pope agreed that he must be obeyed.

I think while we venerate saints and try to follow their lives, we are truly following the attributes of Christ displayed in them. We do not follow or have to follow every little thing they said and did.

Have you ever read the Testament of St. Francis?

He says that the brothers are bound to obey him, even after his death, without questioning, without murmurring, without doubting. How are they to obey him, by obeying all of his canonically elected successors who are bound to obey him and are forbidden to touch a single word of what he wrote and commanded. Their job is to pass on and to explain what Francis wanted.

He also wrote that no one showed him how to live the Gospel, but that it was revealed to him directly by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Church accepts these writings and commands.

Have you ever heard our profession of vows?

“I, Brother N, vow and promise to almighty God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the angels and saints to obey our Holy Father Francis, observing the Rule of the Friars Minor without property and in chastity all the days of my life.”

The superior answers:

“And if you are faithful in obeying our Holy Father and following the Gospel as he commands, I promise you eternal life.”

There is a vow and a promise to obey Francis, to observe his rule as he worte it and as he commands.

There is a promise on the part of the Church that if we live the Gospel as Francis taught it and commanded it, we will achieve eternal life.

This is not a matter of taking his good example and bypassing what is not practical. This is a grave matter of obeying him to the last detail unless you are dispensed from doing so by one of his canonically elected successors.

If the custom is to do this and the Guardian approves, because he believes it’s safe and that it would be good for the friars to do it, then it’s a go. You must not forget, the Guardian’s concern is what is good for the friars. His only mission in life is to ensure what is good for his brothers. This also was in Francis writings and his practice. He was not too concerned with the world outside of his brothers. He was concerned with what was good for his brothers. If it was good for his brothers to go on these missions, such as this one, then he blessed that mission.

One has to understand that the focus of Franciscan life is to raise up holy men and women inisde the order. As the friars, nuns, sisters and secular Franciscans become holier, the whole world gains, because we are one body.

You may be looking at this in too big a picture. Franciscans don’t look at these things through wide lenses. We look at them through Francis’ lense and the lens of 800 years of tradition. This is part of the Church Tradition.

Allow me to ask a simple question. Do you like the tabernacle in the main sanctuary?

Did you know that it was a Franciscan innovation?

Otherwise we might as well have gospels on each of these saints lives, right?

God Bless

Not exactly, that’s why only a group of elect men were allowed to right a religious rule: Basil, Benedict, Albert, Augustine and Francis.

No one else has ever been allowed to write a religious rule. These rules may never be changed, unless there is a direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit on the pope.

Every other founder wrote statutes or constitutions and those can be changed by their followers, with the approval of the Holy See of course.

But not a Holy Rule. Not even the followers can change them. They are considered commentaries on the Gospels. Therefore, the Church does not touch them.

I’m a little bewildered here. Why are you so oppposed to an 800 year tradition that is part of the big Tradition of the Church? Remember, Tradition is very broad. You have the mendican movement, the Cluniac Reforms, the counter Reformation, the early councils, the Fathers, councils and many other pieces that together make up Tradition.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

When a Franciscan goes out on mission, he expects nothing but to be ridiculed. If people listen and pay attention, it is a blessing. The Blessed Sacrament is with him and as long as he believes and he adores, the rest does not matter to him, because that’s what Francis taught us and what the Church confirmed when it canonized his teachings.

Hi Br. Jr,

When you say you have been doing this for 800 years, are you referring to evangelizing in general or this method of street adoration?

 

[At_Trent]

Please read my post again, carefully, and understand what I am saying. I am not saying that this Friar is mocking the faith. I am saying that if this happened while I was walking about town, I would be suspicious and would think its some prank. I do not know this Friar, if Bro. JR was walking with me that day which would be an absolute pleasure, then it would be great for someone to tell me who that was and what’s going on. You are looking at the situation after the fact, I’m relating what my reaction would be when it happened and I was there when it happened.

Fair enough.

Still, all the woulda/coulda/mighta happened didn’t. We can find fault in anything if we try hard enough. I’m surprised I’m not picking at it lol.

But actually I found it a very moving and positive thing.

 

[JReducation]

Please read my post again, carefully, and understand what I am saying. I am not saying that this Friar is mocking the faith. I am saying that if this happened while I was walking about town, I would be suspicious and would think its some prank. I do not know this Friar, if Bro. JR was walking with me that day which would be an absolute pleasure, then it would be great for someone to tell me who that was and what’s going on. You are looking at the situation after the fact, I’m relating what my reaction would be when it happened and I was there when it happened.

To the Franciscan, this is not important, because it was not important to Francis. Francis was concerned with what was good for his brothers. If this was good for his brothers, it was good enough for him.

You see, he was a mother. His greatest concern in life was the salvation of his sons. He wanted his sons to do whatever it took ot become saints. Since there was so much to choose from, he narrowed it down to a few things:

poverty

preaching, with or without the Blessed Sacrament

brotherhood,

absolute and unquestioning obedience to legitimate authority

penance

trust in Divine Providence.

imitating Christ literally.

Nothing else that matters to us, mattered to him.

I find it very frustrating that we have some Catholics on this thread who want to change this man and his sons. Why not let him be him and let his sons follow him? The Church has allowed it for 800 years. Why, suddenly, do we want to change Francis and the patrimony that he left his sons and the freedom that he left his sons?

That’s almost offensive It’s as if what we have beleived and obeyed for 800 years suddenly doesn’t pass mustard with the laity, then it must be abandoned, when the Church has never commanded us to do that. On the contrary, she has blasted us for not doing it. In a scating letter in 1978, before he died, Pope Paul VI blasted us for not being exactly like Francis. In 2009, during our 800th birthday, Pope Benedict XVI again asked why it was taking us so long to get back to the 13th century.

In a speech to the bishops of Italy, he blasted them for not being like Francis.

All of a sudden, you have friars on YouTube who are doing what Francis did and people are upset. Before this was on YouTube it was happening in different places such as NY, LA, Sydney, Rom, Paris, Buenos Aires, Sao Paolo and in many places where the Guardians athorized it. Maybe we need to tell all Franciscan to shy away from cameras so as not to upset some people.

What do people want us to do? Do they want us to stop following what Francis taught us and not do what he commanded us to do? Do they want to take away the power of the Guardians to do what is best for their brothers? Do they want the Church to retract the Regula Bullata?

I’m befuddled.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ddarko]

I believe that you’re not understanding tradition. The traditions of the great religious orders are very much a part of the Church’s tradition. What you saw in the video is part of an 800 year tradition. It is not new. What is new is that someone filmed it and put it on YouTube. There was no YouTube 800 years ago.

You’re tyring to change Franciscan tradition. You can’t do that. Only a pope can do that and to ensure that this never happened, in 1223 Pope Honorious sealed the rule and teachings of St. Francis with a Papal Bull. It would require the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for another pope to break the Bull and change what is contained in the tradition.

So let me understand this. It was Franciscan Tradition to RANDOMLY go in to the midst of unknown group of people and a random location and have Eucharistic Adoration?

Please provide some documents if its possible of the existence of such practice.

“Shock value evangelization” is your term. We have been doing this for 800 years. We don’t consider it shock value evangelization. I, the Church, the Order and others would thank you if you would refrain from such labels.

Well to be honest, it is shock value evangelization. I don’t think its very appropriate way to win people. If you win people over simply because of how they feel about certain customs, they would be just as quick to leave as soon as they find something other attractive custom or find something they don’t like.

The fact is that street ministry, with and without the Blessed Sacrament has been a Franciscan custom approved by the Church as early as 1209 and has been practriced since then in different places. All that is needed is the permission of the Guardian of the house. He is the canonical successor of St. Francis and he is to be obeyed in all matters. Whatever he looses for his brothers, is loosed and whatever he bind is bound as long as he remains within the boundaries of what Francis would allow or not allow.

I am not sure what you are saying here is true. Even if it were true, I am not sure it is no longer applicable for a multi-cultural and multi-religious society.

It’s a nice tradition if you know the entire population is Catholic. Otherwise it is hard for even a Catholic to know whether this is public mocking.

When a Franciscan goes out on mission, he expects nothing but to be ridiculed. If people listen and pay attention, it is a blessing. The Blessed Sacrament is with him and as long as he believes and he adores, the rest does not matter to him, because that’s what Francis taught us and what the Church confirmed when it canonized his teachings.

Well one can get ridiculed for lot of things. One can go out naked and expect to be ridiculed. But its needless. Same here. To make things worse, you are taking Christ down with you.

It would make more sense if you took that time and energy and spent it on preaching to the people. This is why Apostles didn’t try to win people by showing them their customs. People were won by preaching the word. It is only as one spiritually matures that he/she can truly admire the beauty of sacraments.

Also, Eucharistic adoration is good for non-believers and lapsed Catholics when they spend quiet time in front of the Eucharist in prayer. You hear God in the silence. Not in the midst of a bustling street.

God Bless

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m befuddled.

Bro. JR, I’m not suggesting what the Brothers should or shouldn’t do. All I said is what my reaction would be should this even happen on the street as I am walking by. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[JReducation]

Hi Br. Jr,

When you say you have been doing this for 800 years, are you referring to evangelizing in general or this method of street adoration?

Street adoration goes back to the 13th century Franciscans. They didn’t have churches and they didn’t have too many priests. Most Franciscans are not priests. We’re all friars or seculars, but not every friar is a priest.

In the absence of big Churches and priests, the friars carried the Blessed Sacrament around with them as they moved from place to place. Sometimes, they would be in a place that was nowhere near to a chapel or church, so they held adoration out in the open. It was done in the fields, the plazas or where ever they found themselves. They also had a custom of taking the Sacrament to neighborhoods where there was a lot of sin. It was a way to bring sinners to Christ and Christ to sinners.

If and when they had all of the materials, canopy, cope, veil, incense, candles etc, they used it. If it was not available or not practical, they didn’t use it. But those things came in later. They were not the custom in 1209. These came in when Eucharistic processions began. That was much later. Even when Eucharistic processions began, they would often setup an altar on the street where they would place the monstrance.

It is important to remember, this must be approved by two people: first – the local bishop and second – the Guardian of the house.

It’s still done today. It’s more common in mission countries where there are great distances between churches. You pick a spot and you set up adoration.

You must always comply with the rules of the order and with the rules of the local bishop this matter. Francis was a stickler for that. You could not preach or have any kind of adoration or mass, where the bishop did not approve. If the bishop approved, then the next level was the Guardian of the house. If he approved, you were set to go. This goes back to 1209…

I think we can safely assume that something so public was approved by the local bishop and the Guardian. Neither would approve of something that is obviously dangerous.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ddarko]

Do they want us to stop following what Francis taught us and not do what he commanded us to do?

I honestly don’t know why you emphasize st. Francis so much. You follow Christ, not st. Francis.

Just do what Christ taught you to do. Evangelize and win over the people. It is up to you to decide which methods work best and are most effective depending on the society you live in. Random Street adoration, if it was ever tradition, would have been nice when the whole community is Catholic or you have no church. But in a diverse community, its hard to see the point.

On the other hand, you are welcome to go from parish to parish and have benedictions and adoration That would be nice! Or pick a public place (though I really don’t see how one can engage in quiet prayer on a street) and designate it as a routine place to have adoration for the faithful with the permission of the parish and authorities. That’s more acceptable than Random flashing.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Street adoration goes back to the 13th century Franciscans. They didn’t have churches and they didn’t have too many priests. Most Franciscans are not priests. We’re all friars or seculars, but not every friar is a priest.

In the absence of big Churches and priests, the friars carried the Blessed Sacrament around with them as they moved from place to place. Sometimes, they would be in a place that was nowhere near to a chapel or church, so they held adoration out in the open. It was done in the fields, the plazas or where ever they found themselves. They also had a custom of taking the Sacrament to neighborhoods where there was a lot of sin. It was a way to bring sinners to Christ and Christ to sinners.

If and when they had all of the materials, canopy, cope, veil, incense, candles etc, they used it. If it was not available or not practical, they didn’t use it. But those things came in later. They were not the custom in 1209. These came in when Eucharistic processions began. That was much later. Even when Eucharistic processions began, they would often setup an altar on the street where they would place the monstrance.

It is important to remember, this must be approved by two people: first – the local bishop and second – the Guardian of the house.

It’s still done today. It’s more common in mission countries where there are great distances between churches. You pick a spot and you set up adoration.

You must always comply with the rules of the order and with the rules of the local bishop this matter. Francis was a stickler for that. You could not preach or have any kind of adoration or mass, where the bishop did not approve. If the bishop approved, then the next level was the Guardian of the house. If he approved, you were set to go. This goes back to 1209…

I think we can safely assume that something so public was approved by the local bishop and the Guardian. Neither would approve of something that is obviously dangerous.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

You see, what you said above is perfectly acceptable. There were no churches. It is done in Mission countries where there are no churches etc. So it does become a necessity or in other words, you have no other option but to hold it in the open.

That is justified because of the extraneous circumstances.

But what you saw on the video is done in a place where there are ample amounts of churches in the surrounding area.

Also, having adoration in public in a routinely designated place by the same friar is fine. But randomness is what is being objected here.

Think about it, if someone in a robe is standing in the middle of the mall doing the same as the video, how am I to know? As far as I know, my priest has not said anything like this is happening in my parish, no one else knows who this person in the mall is. Considering the fact that he could hold this in my parish church and he is doing it outside instead, for me then there is suspicion more than anything.

God Bless

 

[ConstantineTG]

Fair enough.

Still, all the woulda/coulda/mighta happened didn’t. We can find fault in anything if we try hard enough. I’m surprised I’m not picking at it lol.

But actually I found it a very moving and positive thing.

Well, had I known ahead of time what was going to take place, I would support it 100%. But as I mentioned, if it caught me completely by surprise, I would be suspicious. I guess its just a reflection of the situation we are in with our faith in the location where we are.

 

[MarkThompson]

Fair enough.

Still, all the woulda/coulda/mighta happened didn’t. We can find fault in anything if we try hard enough. I’m surprised I’m not picking at it lol.

But actually I found it a very moving and positive thing.

Well, it coulda mighta gone wrong, though! This is why adoration is always an awful practice, because you never know what might, theoretically, happen – a group of thugs could come in and steal the Eucharist, or a flash flood could wash it away, or a tiger that escaped from the zoo could burst in and eat it. No one can predict the terrible, horrible things that might go wrong, so it is clearly far better not to engage in dubious practices like adoration. Certainly, the local priests aren’t remotely qualified to judge whether the vanishingly small chance of some great calamity occurring isn’t outweighed by the value of letting people adore their God. Much better just never to do it at all. Safer that way, don’t you agree? And if there’s one thing that Jesus called us to do, it’s to always play it safe in spreading the faith.

Besides which, for all you know any church where the “adoration” is being staged might have been erected by anti-Catholics for the purpose of mocking our customs and faith. Apparently, people frequently mock Catholicism by vesting and cutting their hair as friars, obtaining a monstrance, and going into public to recite powerful litanies about Christ, the Eucharist, and Salvation, so it stands to reason that they’d stop at nothing to trick naive Catholics.

 

[JReducation]

So let me understand this. It was Franciscan Tradition to RANDOMLY go in to the midst of unknown group of people and a random location and have Eucharistic Adoration?

Please provide some documents if its possible of the existence of such practice.

Pick up any book on the history of the Franciscans or the Franciscan saints.

I am not sure what you are saying here is true. Even if it were true, I am not sure it is no longer applicable for a multi-cultural and multi-religious society.

The rule has not been changed in 800 years. It remains true. The rule was carefully written to comply with Canon Law. Francis anticipated the argument of “Multi-cultural and multi-religious society”. To head that off at the pass, he wrote that the rule was to be observed “Sine glosse”, without interpretation. The only thing that the family is allowed to do is to write constitutions to answer questions that are addressed by the rule. That’s how we came to have so many obediences. As new situations arose and the answers were not in the rule, different groups of Franciscans had to address them. They wrote constitutions for themselves, effectively creating different branches of the same family. But the rule itself remains the same for all.

Only Francis or the pope can dispense with anything that is in that rule. This had never been done by any pope.

It’s a nice tradition if you know the entire population is Catholic. Otherwise it is hard for even a Catholic to know whether this is public mocking.

The entire population was not Catholic in the 13th century. The friars traveled to mission countries where there was no Christianity. Their first stop was Jerusalem.

.

It would make more sense if you took that time and energy and spent it on preaching to the people. This is why Apostles didn’t try to win people by showing them their customs. People were won by preaching the word. It is only as one spiritually matures that he/she can truly admire the beauty of sacraments.

Also, Eucharistic adoration is good for non-believers and lapsed Catholics when they spend quiet time in front of the Eucharist in prayer. You hear God in the silence. Not in the midst of a bustling street.

God Bless

That is one perspective, but not the perspective of Francis. We go back to the same thing. Don’t try to change the man and his tradition. His tradition and his rule is very clear. If the bishop and the Guardian appove, so does Francis.

Let’s not try to fix what has never been broken. If you do, you’ll just turn us into another community of priests. That’s not what Francis wanted us to be. We were to be very different and do things very differenlty

We were a community of brothers who focussed imitating Christ. Because it was good for our salvation to preach, we did. We did it with and without the Blessed Sacrament.

The goal of every Franciscan is to become a saint by following the footsteps of St. Francis. If we begin to put restrictions on them, then they are no longer Franciscan.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[At_Trent]

So let me understand this. It was Franciscan Tradition to RANDOMLY go in to the midst of unknown group of people and a random location and have Eucharistic Adoration?

Now you are in obvious denial. These Friars knew what they were going to do and where. It was planned.

And the whole point is going out to convert. They can preach to Catholics in a church. They hit the streets for those who won’t come yet.

Or perhaps you just don’t understand the mission of Holy Mother Church. Are you a convert ?

 

[Aramis]

To those who object to the duffel bag, what would be a more suitable transportation method for an event like this?

I don’t object to it, but I will admit my first impulse was to think of a dominican in cappa negro, clutching the monstrance to his breast under the cloak…