Interesting - Eucharistic Flash Mob

[ddarko]

Now you are in obvious denial. These Friars knew what they were going to do and where. It was planned.

And the whole point is going out to convert. They can preach to Catholics in a church. They hit the streets for those who won’t come yet.

Or perhaps you just don’t understand the mission of Holy Mother Church. Are you a convert ?

Sigh, I understand it as much as I have read and studied.

You seem to be fixated by what you think is the solution instead of the problem.

The street Eucharist adoration was valid back in the day when churches did not exist. Please read my post 91 above. I can totally understand the reasoning behind that because it is extraneous circumstances.

But now its a different story. There are enough churches around. If that friar wants to do it in an area without any churches, by all means, tell him to go do it.

So please, while there is a problem in the church today, the solution is not to go shove the Sacraments and Sacramentals in the face.

God Bless

 

[JReducation]

You see, what you said above is perfectly acceptable. There were no churches. It is done in Mission countries where there are no churches etc. So it does become a necessity or in other words, you have no other option but to hold it in the open.

That is justified because of the extraneous circumstances.

But what you saw on the video is done in a place where there are ample amounts of churches in the surrounding area.

Also, having adoration in public in a routinely designated place by the same friar is fine. But randomness is what is being objected here.

Think about it, if someone in a robe is standing in the middle of the mall doing the same as the video, how am I to know? As far as I know, my priest has not said anything like this is happening in my parish, no one else knows who this person in the mall is. Considering the fact that he could hold this in my parish church and he is doing it outside instead, for me then there is suspicion more than anything.

God Bless

Let’s look at is another way. The bishop allows it. The Guardian allows it. St. Francis allows it. No one requires that it must be in a church, if you’re a friar. Therefore, all of this is useless unless you go back and change what Francis allowed and wanted for his brothers and strip the Guardian of his faculties to authorize his brothers to do this and strip the bishop of his faculties.

We would have to setup our opinion against that of the Seraphic Father, the local bishop and the canonically elected Guardian. That’s a lot of authority and a very long line of tradition that has always been acccepted by the Church.

On top of that, there was the Council of Trent that ruled that Franciscans and other orders in solemn vows were exempt religious. Neither bishops nor lay people had any authority over them, unless they could prove that they violated a law. In that case, it’s the law that has authority.

We can go back and forth on this for a year and nothing will change. The friars will continue to look at St. Francis, not at what the laity is saying. They will verify with their superiors to ensure that they understand correctly. The superior will make sure that there is no objection from the local bishop and the work goes on, with or without the Sacrament.

We’re debating something that we cannot change, because it is written in law and only one person has the power to change that law. That’s the pope. Popes are very skittish about touching the rules of Benedict, Basil, Augustine, Albert and Francis. It has never been done. They don’t like doing it because the Church beleives that these rules are directly inspired by God and they are commentaries on the Gospels.

The only recourse here is to ask the bishop to pass a ruling for his diocese. That will only work for his diocese. It does not bind exempt religious.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ddarko]

Pick up any book on the history of the Franciscans or the Franciscan saints.

The rule has not been changed in 800 years. It remains true. The rule was carefully written to comply with Canon Law. Francis anticipated the argument of “Multi-cultural and multi-religious society”. To head that off at the pass, he wrote that the rule was to be observed “Sine glosse”, without interpretation. The only thing that the family is allowed to do is to write constitutions to answer questions that are addressed by the rule. That’s how we came to have so many obediences. As new situations arose and the answers were not in the rule, different groups of Franciscans had to address them. They wrote constitutions for themselves, effectively creating different branches of the same family. But the rule itself remains the same for all.

Only Francis or the pope can dispense with anything that is in that rule. This had never been done by any pope.

The entire population was not Catholic in the 13th century. The friars traveled to mission countries where there was no Christianity. Their first stop was Jerusalem.

That is one perspective, but not the perspective of Francis. We go back to the same thing. Don’t try to change the man and his tradition. His tradition and his rule is very clear. If the bishop and the Guardian appove, so does Francis.

Let’s not try to fix what has never been broken. If you do, you’ll just turn us into another community of priests. That’s not what Francis wanted us to be. We were to be very different and do things very differenlty

We were a community of brothers who focussed imitating Christ. Because it was good for our salvation to preach, we did. We did it with and without the Blessed Sacrament.

The goal of every Franciscan is to become a saint by following the footsteps of St. Francis. If we begin to put restrictions on them, then they are no longer Franciscan.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Ok Brother, there is a difference between tradition and Tradition. As I can see you have a tradition. Am I understanding you properly?

Also, please read post 91. The problem is not merely multiculturalism.

God Bless

 

[At_Trent]

Well, it coulda mighta gone wrong, though! This is why adoration is always an awful practice, because you never know what might, theoretically, happen – a group of thugs could come in and steal the Eucharist, or a flash flood could wash it away, or a tiger that escaped from the zoo could burst in and eat it. No one can predict the terrible, horrible things that might go wrong, so it is clearly far better not to engage in dubious practices like adoration. Certainly, the local priests aren’t remotely qualified to judge whether the vanishingly small chance of some great calamity occurring isn’t outweighed by the value of letting people adore their God. Much better just never to do it at all. Safer that way, don’t you agree? And if there’s one thing that Jesus called us to do, it’s to always play it safe in spreading the faith.

Besides which, for all you know any church where the “adoration” is being staged might have been erected by anti-Catholics for the purpose of mocking our customs and faith. Apparently, people frequently mock Catholicism by vesting and cutting their hair as friars, obtaining a monstrance, and going into public to recite powerful litanies about Christ, the Eucharist, and Salvation, so it stands to reason that they’d stop at nothing to trick naive Catholics.

ya think ?

 

[ddarko]

Let’s look at is another way. The bishop allows it. The Guardian allows it. St. Francis allows it. No one requires that it must be in a church, if you’re a friar. Therefore, all of this is useless unless you go back and change what Francis allowed and wanted for his brothers and strip the Guardian of his faculties to authorize his brothers to do this and strip the bishop of his faculties.

We would have to setup our opinion against that of the Seraphic Father, the local bishop and the canonically elected Guardian. That’s a lot of authority and a very long line of tradition that has always been acccepted by the Church.

On top of that, there was the Council of Trent that ruled that Franciscans and other orders in solemn vows were exempt religious. Neither bishops nor lay people had any authority over them, unless they could prove that they violated a law. In that case, it’s the law that has authority.

We can go back and forth on this for a year and nothing will change. The friars will continue to look at St. Francis, not at what the laity is saying. They will verify with their superiors to ensure that they understand correctly. The superior will make sure that there is no objection from the local bishop and the work goes on, with or without the Sacrament.

We’re debating something that we cannot change, because it is written in law and only one person has the power to change that law. That’s the pope. Popes are very skittish about touching the rules of Benedict, Basil, Augustine, Albert and Francis. It has never been done. They don’t like doing it because the Church beleives that these rules are directly inspired by God and they are commentaries on the Gospels.

The only recourse here is to ask the bishop to pass a ruling for his diocese. That will only work for his diocese. It does not bind exempt religious.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Well good luck with that.

I honestly don’t see the point in what you are doing. Like zero reason behind what you are doing other than you claiming tradition (not even TRADITION with a capital T) is on your side.

Your tradition originated as a result of there not being any churches during missionary activity. Those are extraneous circumstances. For you to use those in this day and age where there are ample churches around you is pretty pointless.

You are not helping either because even faithful Catholics should rightly question you when they see you down in the street. Whose to know if you are just making fun of Catholics? I am surprised no-one called the police for gathering in a public place without permission and obstructing. If someone does that, I honestly can’t blame them.

Do you see what I am saying?

The average Catholic like me on the road does not know what st. Francis had in mind with random street incursions with the Eucharist Adoration. And as far as I can see it was good for its time and now its not justifiable.

God Bless

 

[JReducation]

I don’t object to it, but I will admit my first impulse was to think of a dominican in cappa negro, clutching the monstrance to his breast under the cloak…

I can understand that.

I’ll tell you a story. Francis was asked if he would join up with Dominic. He answered one simple line

“No one showed me what to do except the most high Lord Jesus Christ and to confirm what he had revealed to me, he sent me brothers.”

In another statement, he prohibitted the use of the cappa and the choir alb, because it made the brothers look like monks and priests. They were to look like neither. They were to look like the common peasant.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Please read below the rules that govern how we speak to and about religious and clergy on this forum. Read post # 9

The topic is very interesting. Do not ruin a good thread with rudeness.

 

[Aramis]

I honestly don’t know why you emphasize st. Francis so much. You follow Christ, not st. Francis.

Actually, Franciscans follow Christ through St. Francis’ Rule.

Dominican’s through the Instructions of St. Dominic and the Beneditcine Rule.

The whole point of friary is to preach through extra-liturgical means for all friars, and through liturgical means as well for deacon-friars and priest-friars.

They join the order to save their souls through the practice of their order and it’s charisms.

Just do what Christ taught you to do. Evangelize and win over the people. It is up to you to decide which methods work best and are most effective depending on the society you live in. Random Street adoration, if it was ever tradition, would have been nice when the whole community is Catholic or you have no church. But in a diverse community, its hard to see the point.

You really need to do some historical research, because you are expressing terrible ignorance. Eucharistic processions and public adoration are in fact a millenium old tradition of the Roman Rite and Gallican Rite.

The good priest-friar is doing a modern variation of the Processional form of Adoration. It’s irregular, but not in any way that untraditional.

On the other hand, you are welcome to go from parish to parish and have benedictions and adoration That would be nice! Or pick a public place (though I really don’t see how one can engage in quiet prayer on a street) and designate it as a routine place to have adoration for the faithful with the permission of the parish and authorities. That’s more acceptable than Random flashing.

God Bless

There was nothing random about it. They were reaching out, in a particularly Carmelite way, to the lapsed, the curious, the protestant, and the unreached.

To bring Christ Present to the People, especially those who won’t come to Him on their own.

 

[ddarko]

You really need to do some historical research, because you are expressing terrible ignorance. Eucharistic processions and public adoration are in fact a millenium old tradition of the Roman Rite and Gallican Rite.

The good priest-friar is doing a modern variation of the Processional form of Adoration. It’s irregular, but not in any way that untraditional.
.

You really need to READ what I WROTE.

I am all for public adoration, masses, Rosary etc and I participate in many where I am from.

But that has to be routine, designated and known to the parish people. I am against RANDOM Eucharist Adoration like the stunt pulled in this video.

Did you ever bother to read or is it just fun to keep attacking straw man position?

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

I can understand that.

I’ll tell you a story. Francis was asked if he would join up with Dominic. He answered one simple line

“No one showed me what to do except the most high Lord Jesus Christ and to confirm what he had revealed to me, he sent me brothers.”

In another statement, he prohibitted the use of the cappa and the choir alb, because it made the brothers look like monks and priests. They were to look like neither. They were to look like the common peasant.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Btw, I apologize because I actually did not know you were really a part of a religious order. I talked to you as if I were talking to a lay person and thought that you simply liked to be called brother or something. I’ve met others like that who even use Br., Fr. title in their names in this forum but are actually not so please excuse my confusion.

But honestly though, we can connect this to what I’ve been saying here all along. No one can really know if you are the real thing or not if you decided to randomly visit a mall and start Adoration. To me at least, my first thought would be suspicion. Well … not now maybe since we’ve talked about this here. But do you see what I am saying?

God Bless

 

[kingal86]

It’s not like there aren’t any churches in London either. Educate the people so that they understand, and then send them to Church to meet the Lord.

I’m sure it wasn’t intentional, but the population of Preston (221 miles away from London in NW England) will be quite offended to be confused with Londoners (or Southerners in general)…

 

[TrueLight]

Street adoration goes back to the 13th century Franciscans. They didn’t have churches and they didn’t have too many priests. Most Franciscans are not priests. We’re all friars or seculars, but not every friar is a priest.

In the absence of big Churches and priests, the friars carried the Blessed Sacrament around with them as they moved from place to place. Sometimes, they would be in a place that was nowhere near to a chapel or church, so they held adoration out in the open. It was done in the fields, the plazas or where ever they found themselves. They also had a custom of taking the Sacrament to neighborhoods where there was a lot of sin. It was a way to bring sinners to Christ and Christ to sinners.

If and when they had all of the materials, canopy, cope, veil, incense, candles etc, they used it. If it was not available or not practical, they didn’t use it. But those things came in later. They were not the custom in 1209. These came in when Eucharistic processions began. That was much later. Even when Eucharistic processions began, they would often setup an altar on the street where they would place the monstrance.

It is important to remember, this must be approved by two people: first – the local bishop and second – the Guardian of the house.

It’s still done today. It’s more common in mission countries where there are great distances between churches. You pick a spot and you set up adoration.

You must always comply with the rules of the order and with the rules of the local bishop

this matter. Francis was a stickler for that. You could not preach or have any kind of

adoration or mass, where the bishop did not approve. If the bishop approved, then the next level was the Guardian of the house. If he approved, you were set to go. This goes back to 1209…

I think we can safely assume that something so public was approved by the local bishop and the Guardian. Neither would approve of something that is obviously dangerous.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Br. JR,

You know that I respect you tremendously but I think you are taking this too personally and you are making this all about your order.

A non-religious priest could have done this. It would be the same debate.

 

[CatholicFireman]

“And Opra, can’t explain Him away”. I loved that part.

 

[Marauder]

I am against RANDOM Eucharist Adoration like the stunt pulled in this video.

The thing is you are not a Bishop, friar, priest, etc. You can have your preferences all you want. If you see a Random Eucharistic Adoriation, you don’t have to go.

I have been to Eucharistic adoration in the middle of the woods, on camping trips, in the middle of a convention center, in the middle of a football stadium, and in the middle of an open field. I have been in a Eucharistic procession in the middle of an open field with a bishop and hundreds of Boy Scouts. In all the places I have seen it, it is always with due reverence. I have heard of it in airports and many other secular locations.

If it is a preference that is one thing, but if you are trying to impose your will on the bishops, friars, etc. that is going well above your “authority”. As long as the people are following the norms of the Church, the Order, etc. and gettting the approval of the local Bishop, more power to them.

 

[CatholicFireman]

I call it a Eucharistic Procession, only standing still.

 

[ddarko]

Ok just so for clarity (there seems to be a lot of confusion in what people keep replying to me with), this is what I am saying here

1. I am ok with Public adoration/mass/rosary etc as long as it is a designated event and at least the faithful in the parish in which it is happening have been notified.
2. If not, the priest/friar who is carrying out the event must be a recognized priest/friar in the parish that Catholics who at least attend daily mass would know about.

What I am opposed to is

1. A friar/priest who wakes up in the morning and from his very good intentions decides drive or walk to a random location and have Eucharist Adoration.

That does not help much people and on the contrary, can lead even faithful to confusion as to whats going on.

So public mass/adoration/rosary can certainly bring lapsed Catholics back to the church. But have it in prior designated area with permission and notification of the parish community. Then these people can at least come and participate without confusion and non-believers can actually ask someone present what is happening and actually get a less confused answer. Such planned proceedings are common practice where I am from and has been ever since I can remember. I have no problem with that and I think its wonderful.

But having a random person, who is a friar/priest that the community has no knowledge of, suddenly walk in to a public area and start having Eucharist Adoration really makes no sense. It’s confusing to everyone.

Why not inform the parish, and ask them to at least participate? What is the necessity for the Random nature of the act?

If someone can actually explain to me why it must be a random event rather than planned, then I would be happy to concede my position.

God Bless

 

[MarkThompson]

But having a random person, who is a friar/priest that the community has no knowledge of, suddenly walk in to a public area and start having Eucharist Adoration really makes no sense. It’s confusing to everyone.

And just how do you reconcile this hypothesis of yours with the experimental data from the video – namely, that for dozens of people there it quite obviously did make sense and they were not confused?

You’re off in your own world, aren’t you, like people who say “Oh, having the tabernacle front and center confuses people about the nature of the sacrifice.” It doesn’t matter how many actual living, breathing people step forward and explain that they are not confused and in fact they find it very meaningful, the answer comes back, “No, you’re incorrect, this confuses everyone and it makes no sense.” You’re doing the same thing. Watching the video ought to be enough to convince you that your hypothesis was mistaken and it might pay to figure out where your suppositions went wrong, but instead you persist with the allegation that all those people who knelt down were actually in a state of confusion, and no sense was made. Why are you doing this?

 

[At_Trent]

Br. JR,

You know that I respect you tremendously but I think you are taking this too personally and you are making this all about your order.

A non-religious priest could have done this. It would be the same debate.

I don’t think he is taking it personally. I think he’s taking it seriously, because this person darko persists in a frustrating denial.

imo, darko seems to want to put mundane concerns first and foremost in all matters. This results in appeasement and the stripping of Catholicism of it’s treasures.

It’s radical liberalism, which is incompatible with anything traditional.

 

[At_Trent]

It’s confusing to everyone.

Why not inform the parish, and ask them to at least participate? What is the necessity for the Random nature of the act?

If someone can actually explain to me why it must be a random event rather than planned, then I would be happy to concede my position.

God Bless

It was planned, and you are in denial of that because it means everything you have said is a waste of time.

 

[ddarko]

And just how do you reconcile this hypothesis of yours with the experimental data from the video – namely, that for dozens of people there it quite obviously did make sense and they were not confused?

You’re off in your own world, aren’t you, like people who say “Oh, having the tabernacle front and center confuses people about the nature of the sacrifice.” It doesn’t matter how many actual living, breathing people step forward and explain that they are not confused and in fact they find it very meaningful, the answer comes back, “No, you’re incorrect, this confuses everyone and it makes no sense.” You’re doing the same thing. Watching the video ought to be enough to convince you that your hypothesis was mistaken and it might pay to figure out where your suppositions went wrong, but instead you persist with the allegation that all those people who knelt down were actually in a state of confusion, and no sense was made. Why are you doing this?

I am not sure if you are aware, but people don’t make decisions like this based on one video. That’s not even a valid sample size. It’s a sample size of 1.

Some people can show you a video where the Catholic church did some bad things in history. Does that mean the Catholic Church is bad? No.

So similarly, when someone makes a general claim about an action, to cite one occasion where it all went nice or bad does nothing.

If I were walking down the road, I would be confused as to what this man is doing. It is also possible for an imposter to do the same with a wafer and make a joke out of it.

Now answer my question, what is the necessity for it to be Random? I see no valid reason for such events to be random.

And for your information, I have no problem with the Tabernacle in the center and I actually prefer it that way.

God Bless