Interesting idea: 12 step "Islamic Terrorist Detox" program in Canada

[dzheremi]

I was actually searching for information on the old Lebanese singer Nur Al-Huda when Google suggested I look at this blog posting. Thanks, Google. It looks pretty interesting.

In what is likely the first of its kind in Canada, a Toronto mosque is offering a “detox” program for young Islamic radicals who are sympathetic to the terrorist group al Qaeda.

Muhammed Robert Heft, a team member of the Specialized De-radicalization Intervention program, says the program is based on the idea that Islamic extremism can be fought by incorporating traditional teachings of the Qur’an into a “12-step Extremist Detox Program.”

I must admit that I do wonder how they’re going to incorporate “traditional teachings of the Qur’an” into such a program when the commands of the Qur’an inspire a lot of people to turn to terrorism, but it seems like their hearts are in the right place. Pluralism and tolerance is certainly better than the alternative, no matter what religion we’re talking about.

Comments/discussion? Have any of our Canadian members heard of or been to this program?

 

[nohamaria]

I was actually searching for information on the old Lebanese singer Nur Al-Huda when Google suggested I look at this blog posting. Thanks, Google. It looks pretty interesting.

I must admit that I do wonder how they’re going to incorporate “traditional teachings of the Qur’an” into such a program when the commands of the Qur’an inspire a lot of people to turn to terrorism, but it seems like their hearts are in the right place. Pluralism and tolerance is certainly better than the alternative, no matter what religion we’re talking about.

Comments/discussion? Have any of our Canadian members heard of or been to this program?

Peace and Good,
I am living in USA but truly interested to the subject
of this thread. I’ll keep myself informed. Hope You’ll get
your answers.
Salamat.
Nohamaria

 

[Nine_Two]

Sounds interesting, but I question it as well. I don’t know how you can turn the Koran into something purely peaceful.

 

[AJTheMan]

Saudi Arabia has been doing this with some success. The Saudi Government and Clerics have worked with each other to create religious schools specifically for imprisoned members of Al Qaeda/Taliban. The Clerics would show the extremists how their ideology of violence has no traditional nor scriptural support and would then go on to teach them about mainstream Islam and how they can come back to traditional Islam.

Apparently, it’s had some success in converting some radicals back to Muslim orthodoxy.

 

[nohamaria]

Saudi Arabia has been doing this with some success. The Saudi Government and Clerics have worked with each other to create religious schools specifically for imprisoned members of Al Qaeda/Taliban. The Clerics would show the extremists how their ideology of violence has no traditional nor scriptural support and would then go on to teach them about mainstream Islam and how they can come back to traditional Islam.

Apparently, it’s had some success in converting some radicals back to Muslim orthodoxy.

Peace and Good,

I heard too about the same has been applied in egypt,
They somehow create a mystic current teaching
to convince extremists to refuse violenced teaching.
I do honestly appreciate Islamic people for
their honest beleive on God. Even without proofs
of his existance nor understanding his Holy will.
Power for them is accorded by God and they are
truly impressed when his power reign. They maybe think
wrongly. but I prayed to God to give their clerics
the path of his peaceful Will. And that is what
happening now and I hope it will continue for them
to reach at the end his Mercy and never to fullfil
his Judgement.
May God have Mercy on us all.
With God’s blessings.
Nohamaria

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

“Traditional teachings of the Qur’an” most likely means “post-modern, liberal teachings of the Qur’an.”

 

[nohamaria]

“Traditional teachings of the Qur’an” most likely means “post-modern, liberal teachings of the Qur’an.”

Please explain more your idea. I don’t understand it.
Peace.
Nohamaria

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Please explain more your idea. I don’t understand it.
Peace.
Nohamaria

Let me put it in this perspective:

Supposedly violent passages in the Bible, especially in the Psalms, were often taken by the early Church Fathers as being spiritual in nature: when the Psalms talk of beating our enemies or defeating them in battle, they referred to the demons that try to tempt us. They took statements from Christ referring to swords as being spiritual as well. It wasn’t until much later, with some crazy Fundamentalist/Charismatic leaders, that you started to have those passages taken as being seriously about violence and Christians killing people or using violence for other means.

By contrast, when you read the violent passages in the Koran (especially S. 9:29) and then look to the early Muslim scholars on the topic, they all took them to mean violence. Even well respected Muslim scholars of that time (who are comparable to the Christian Church Fathers, to put it in context) took those passages on war and suffering to mean war and suffering. It wasn’t until much later, with Muslims in the west today, that they took those passages and claimed they were spiritual or metaphorical in nature.

So when I hear “traditional” teachings on the Koran, I think of the true traditional teaching on what those passages mean, along with passages in the hadith and life of Mohammad. Even the early companions interpreted them similarly. If they are teaching them that those passages are peaceful and loving, then it is not a traditional teaching, but a modernized politically correct one.

 

[nohamaria]

Let me put it in this perspective:

Supposedly violent passages in the Bible, especially in the Psalms, were often taken by the early Church Fathers as being spiritual in nature: when the Psalms talk of beating our enemies or defeating them in battle, they referred to the demons that try to tempt us. They took statements from Christ referring to swords as being spiritual as well. It wasn’t until much later, with some crazy Fundamentalist/Charismatic leaders, that you started to have those passages taken as being seriously about violence and Christians killing people or using violence for other means.

By contrast, when you read the violent passages in the Koran (especially S. 9:29) and then look to the early Muslim scholars on the topic, they all took them to mean violence. Even well respected Muslim scholars of that time (who are comparable to the Christian Church Fathers, to put it in context) took those passages on war and suffering to mean war and suffering. It wasn’t until much later, with Muslims in the west today, that they took those passages and claimed they were spiritual or metaphorical in nature.

So when I hear “traditional” teachings on the Koran, I think of the true traditional teaching on what those passages mean, along with passages in the hadith and life of Mohammad. Even the early companions interpreted them similarly. If they are teaching them that those passages are peaceful and loving, then it is not a traditional teaching, but a modernized politically correct one.

Thank you for the explanation. I hope that muslims clericks
will succeed in their task and that muslims beleive would preach
the peace. However , it is a hard task for them since
they don’t yet understand the true will of God wich is
clearly revealed to christians throug a history of witnesses
who where apostolics and saints.
Mohammed , where a worrior prophet. Jesus was the
Messenger of love and peace. I think they will fall into
contradictions , unless they would admit the christian
revelations about God. Don’t you agree?
However, I pray to God to help them in this difficult path
and lead them to his truth.

let us keep them in our prayers instead of judgments.

May God have mercy on us all.

Peace and Good.

Nohamaria

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Mohammed , where a worrior prophet. Jesus was the
Messenger of love and peace. I think they will fall into
contradictions , unless they would admit the christian
revelations about God. Don’t you agree?
However, I pray to God to help them in this difficult path
and lead them to his truth.

Agreed. I wish every Muslim on earth, even the worst ones, only the best, but I know it will only take the will of God to bring many to His arms. Some are so stuck on the presuppositions taught to them by their faith that their eyes are clouded from the truth.

 

[swariffin]

Sounds interesting, but I question it as well. I don’t know how you can turn the Koran into something purely peaceful.

It depends on how you interpret the verses. Mostly my fellow Indonesian muslims do not like the idea of killing innocent people for the defense of Islam. They believe that even the war have rules. The minority of them do support Al Qaeda, but their number is limited. The killing of the muslim terrorist leaders in Indonesia were mainly from the information given by our people. Without the help of general public, I don’t believe our government can solve the cases.

 

[elwill]

Sounds interesting, but I question it as well. I don’t know how you can turn the Koran into something purely peaceful.

i have interesting question also

why always people discuss the violence of islam reference to the action of muslims’s group instead of discussing the quran itself ?

why people always jumps to the conclusion that those groups are influenced by quran instead of seeking the truth within the quran itself ?

if quran is filled with hate and violence , why the majority of muslims are tolerant and peacefull?

 

[Jay53]

i have interesting question also

why always people discuss the violence of islam reference to the action of muslims’s group instead of discussing the quran itself ?

why people always jumps to the conclusion that those groups are influenced by quran instead of seeking the truth within the quran itself ?

if quran is filled with hate and violence , why the majority of muslims are tolerant and peacefull?

Personally, I think it is because most people innately abhor violence and are not predisposed to it. In Islam I think most Muslims are influenced by the concept of Fard Kifayah which allows the majority of the Muslims to ignore those violent verses in the Quran. Most Muslims, IMO, are happy to simply contribute their money to the charities that support the terrorists, believing that they are fulfilling their obligation instead of being the ones to do the actual physical fighting. As long as there are some Muslims somewhere fighting against the non-believers then the obligation is removed for the rest of the Muslims.

 

[dzheremi]

i have interesting question also

why always people discuss the violence of islam reference to the action of muslims’s group instead of discussing the quran itself ?

What makes you think that this is not what we are doing in this thread? I mentioned the Qur’an, Nine Two mentioned the Qur’an, Byzantine Wolf mentioned the Qur’an (with a specific verse in mind, too), etc.

why people always jumps to the conclusion that those groups are influenced by quran instead of seeking the truth within the quran itself ?

Because the terrorists tell us that they are influenced by the Qur’an. We don’t need to guess. They tell us with their words and show us with their actions (or is it just a coincidence that they begin their propaganda videos and statements with the traditional Islamic “bismillah” or the shahada?). Even if this were not the case, the truth of the Qur’an is still that it is very violent. The traditional interpretations of the warlike verses in it were violent as well (this is what Byzantine Wolf wrote about), it is only recently that the new neo-Muslim explanation has come about to deal with them. This is why it seems so strange to us to claim to reform terrorists with a diet of “traditional teachings of the Qur’an”.

if quran is filled with hate and violence , why the majority of muslims are tolerant and peacefull?

I think Jay answered this well by reminding us that most Muslims, like most people period, are not actually inclined toward violence, but repulsed by it. The Qur’an itself seems to recognize this when it says “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.” (2:216)

 

[elwill]

Personally, I think it is because most people innately abhor violence and are not predisposed to it. In Islam I think most Muslims are influenced by the concept of Fard Kifayah which allows the majority of the Muslims to ignore those violent verses in the Quran. Most Muslims, IMO, are happy to simply contribute their money to the charities that support the terrorists, believing that they are fulfilling their obligation instead of being the ones to do the actual physical fighting. As long as there are some Muslims somewhere fighting against the non-believers then the obligation is removed for the rest of the Muslims.

jay , if you consider for example that phalastinians are terrorist , then you have to know that we consider israil are the terrorist either
if you consider us supporting terrorist , then your country do the same with israil ( the terrorist in our view )

may be you didn’t understood my point
my point is that you can’t blame muslims for the actinon of group of them as long as those muslims not members in such groups

you only can blame me becuase i’m muslim and becuase i believe in the quran to be words of my God , hence i will expect from you to discuss with me this book because i can’t deny it’s words to be islamic words

that’s exactly my point , source of islam is the quran and the sunnah , not the behaviour of some muslims in the world

 

[Jay53]

jay , if you consider for example that phalastinians are terrorist , then you have to know that we consider israil are the terrorist either
if you consider us supporting terrorist , then your country do the same with israil ( the terrorist in our view )

may be you didn’t understood my point
my point is that you can’t blame muslims for the actinon of group of them as long as those muslims not members in such groups

you only can blame me becuase i’m muslim and becuase i believe in the quran to be words of my God , hence i will expect from you to discuss with me this book because i can’t deny it’s words to be islamic words

that’s exactly my point , source of islam is the quran and the sunnah , not the behaviour of some muslims in the world

What does Palestine or Israel have to do with anything?

You asked:

if quran is filled with hate and violence , why the majority of muslims are tolerant and peacefull?

And I explained why I think so - because even though the Quran is filled with hate and violence, particularly toward non-believers, most Muslims can pretend to ignore those particular verses as long as some Muslims somewhere are performing jihad against the non-believers. Under fard kafiyah they are not obligated to physically fight themselves. I also think that is why we don’t see widespread or large organized protests in Muslim countries against Al Qaeda or the Taliban. Muslims are free to simply give their money to Muslim charities who will then send it in one form or another to the terrorists and the peaceful Muslims can rest easy that they have done what they could according to their conscience. As long as there are some Muslims to do the physical fighting, the others are off the hook.

 

[elwill]

What makes you think that this is not what we are doing in this thread? I mentioned the Qur’an, Nine Two mentioned the Qur’an, Byzantine Wolf mentioned the Qur’an (with a specific verse in mind, too), etc.

offcourse , it’s very good step to mentions the verses of quran , that’s exactly what i’m asking about
let us discuss the verses and exchange our view for it

tell me what is the problem with this verse Nine Two
isn’t your government fight those who don’t pay their taxes ? come on let us first put our hands on the problem

Because the terrorists tell us that they are influenced by the Qur’an. We don’t need to guess. They tell us with their words and show us with their actions (or is it just a coincidence that they begin their propaganda videos and statements with the traditional Islamic “bismillah” or the shahada?). Even if this were not the case, the truth of the Qur’an is still that it is very violent. The traditional interpretations of the warlike verses in it were violent as well (this is what Byzantine Wolf wrote about), it is only recently that the new neo-Muslim explanation has come about to deal with them. This is why it seems so strange to us to claim to reform terrorists with a diet of “traditional teachings of the Qur’an”.

yes quran contain violence verses , but against whom ?
your government judge the country with some violence , but against whom ?
quran talked about violence , but in which context ?
this is the correct questions which you have to ask muslims about , but offcourse if you allready choosed to trust the terrorists , then it’s okey it’s your own choice , and if you have problems with thier views then search about one of them and start you argument with .
i think that most of muslims you will communicate with are the muslims who are against the terrorism , in the fact they are in your side but you don’t want to trust that
so that muslims in thiere arguments about terrorism trying to clarify the misconception , not trying to find justification

I think Jay answered this well by reminding us that most Muslims, like most people period, are not actually inclined toward violence, but repulsed by it. The Qur’an itself seems to recognize this when it says “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.” (2:216)

what is the problem with this verse either
the war was imposed upon muslims from the mekkans , read the history and you will find out this fact , and muslims didn’t want to fight their families but they have to defend themselfs and their religion

 

[elwill]

What does Palestine or Israel have to do with anything?

you said that muslims happy to simply contribute their money to the charities that support the terrorists .
me and most of muslims feel happy to contribute thier money to charities that support phalastinians

which terrorists you refered to then ?

And I explained why I think so - because even though the Quran is filled with hate and violence, particularly toward non-believers, most Muslims can pretend to ignore those particular verses as long as some Muslims somewhere are performing jihad against the non-believers. Under fard kafiyah they are not obligated to physically fight themselves. I also think that is why we don’t see widespread or large organized protests in Muslim countries against Al Qaeda or the Taliban. Muslims are free to simply give their money to Muslim charities who will then send it in one form or another to the terrorists and the peaceful Muslims can rest easy that they have done what they could according to their conscience. As long as there are some Muslims to do the physical fighting, the others are off the hook.

so , you are agianst the violence in the wars ?
i’m sorry if we have to kill our enemy and to be violent against them in the battlefield
actually i can’t deny this fact

anyone can give his money to anyone , but me as muslim , if i give my money to someone wanna to kill innocents and childrens and womens and i know that , i will be terrorist as them
i don’t think that muslims give their mony to some group to kill innocents .

 

[Jay53]

you said that muslims happy to simply contribute their money to the charities that support the terrorists .
me and most of muslims feel happy to contribute thier money to charities that support phalastinians

which terrorists you refered to then ?

Al Qaeda, the Taliban, all the insurgents in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc., particularly the ones planting IEDs and blowing up Americans, British, etc., as well as blowing up other Muslims at schools, mosques, marketplaces etc.

so , you are agianst the violence in the wars ?
i’m sorry if we have to kill our enemy and to be violent against them in the battlefield
actually i can’t deny this fact

I have no idea what you are referring to here or what you mean. How can one be against violence in war?

anyone can give his money to anyone , but me as muslim , if i give my money to someone wanna to kill innocents and childrens and womens and i know that , i will be terrorist as them
i don’t think that muslims give their mony to some group to kill innocents .

Perhaps not intentionally. I obviously don’t know the intent of each and every Muslim who donates to Muslim charities and whether they investigate how their money is being used. I just have heard of some Muslim charities that have ties to terrorist networks and have channeled money to them for weapons etc. And again, it all boils down to who Islam designates as “innocent”. I fear that Muslims have a vastly different definition than the rest of the world.

I still think my point about fard kifayah is a valid one.

 

[elwill]

you said that muslims happy to simply contribute their money to the charities that support the terrorists .
me and most of muslims feel happy to contribute thier money to charities that support phalastinians

which terrorists you refered to then ?

Al Qaeda, the Taliban, all the insurgents in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc., particularly the ones planting IEDs and blowing up Americans, British, etc., as well as blowing up other Muslims at schools, mosques, marketplaces etc.

but we have the same problem with you
many christians and jews give their money to israil which blowing up the civilians, right?

and what about the case of those ones who planting IEDs and blowing up Americans, British, muslims in schools and mosques ! do you think that they asking muslims the money to blowing up childrens in school and musques then muslims of the world loved to help them and give them charity to do that ?

i confess that in some period of time ,muslims support taliban with their mony , but be specific and tell me in which period they did that ?
taliban have conflicts with military of soviet and had conflicts with military of america

i don’t think muslims gave them money as charity when the decided to blow up childrens

i hope if you understand my point , you have to look at the situation from our eyes to at least understand our intension and our view

so , you are agianst the violence in the wars ?
i’m sorry if we have to kill our enemy and to be violent against them in the battlefield
actually i can’t deny this fact

I have no idea what you are referring to here or what you mean. How can one be against violence in war?

you said that "Under fard kafiyah they are not obligated to physically fight themselves. "
that’s absolutly correct , i don’t know what is the problem of that either
if you think that most muslims are peacfull because they are under fard kafiyah so you have to know that fard kafiyah is islamic teaching , consequently it means that most muslims are peacfull becuase of the islamic teaching .
so you just proofed my point not yours

Perhaps not intentionally. I obviously don’t know the intent of each and every Muslim who donates to Muslim charities and whether they investigate how their money is being used. I just have heard of some Muslim charities that have ties to terrorist networks and have channeled money to them for weapons etc. And again, it all boils down to who Islam designates as “innocent”. I fear that Muslims have a vastly different definition than the rest of the world.

yes , i think that both of us need to make his investigation , the media and the governments not honest enough in bothe sides
that’s why i think that we have a good chance to exchange our personal investiagations in these forums

I still think my point about fard kifayah is a valid one.

offcourse