Interesting Joseph Smith Quotes

[MelanieAnne]

Lax, I would venture a guess that when the LDS church divided after the death of Joseph Smith, as well as further division subsequent to that, the current LDS church would describe themselves as the “true” church, whereas the RLDS, FLDS, etc. would be the “apostates”. I doubt that any LDS would use the word “orthodox” to describe themselves but in some sense that would be their status. Of course the broken-away LDS sects have the same opinion of their own groups.

Apostasy may result in division, just as you have defined it. But the ones that break off are often considered the “apostates”, not the church they broke away FROM. At least by those they broke away from. LDS would no doubt argue that the fact that apostates broke away says nothing about the truthfulness of their own faith.

Of course these broken away former LDS are in good company since according to the LDS church the entire Christian world is “apostate”.

 

[lax16]

Lax, I would venture a guess that when the LDS church divided after the death of Joseph Smith, as well as further division subsequent to that, the current LDS church would describe themselves as the “true” church, whereas the RLDS, FLDS, etc. would be the “apostates”. I doubt that any LDS would use the word “orthodox” to describe themselves but in some sense that would be their status. Of course the broken-away LDS sects have the same opinion of their own groups.

Apostasy may result in division, just as you have defined it. But the ones that break off are often considered the “apostates”, not the church they broke away FROM. At least by those they broke away from. LDS would no doubt argue that the fact that apostates broke away says nothing about the truthfulness of their own faith.

Of course these broken away former LDS are in good company since according to the LDS church the entire Christian world is “apostate”.

Yes, however the church divided **before **the death of Joseph Smith.

The LDS consider the early Church in apostasy because of the lack of authority and “conflicting teachings” of the early members. Based on this, the early Mormon church is in apostasy. Their early members were in conflict. Period.

If that is the measuring stick, then LDS have to use it on their own church.

 

[SirThomasMore]

agreed

 

[why_me]

Yes, however the church divided **before **the death of Joseph Smith.

The LDS consider the early Church in apostasy because of the lack of authority and “conflicting teachings” of the early members. Based on this, the early Mormon church is in apostasy. Their early members were in conflict. Period.

If that is the measuring stick, then LDS have to use it on their own church.

The lds church did not divide during Joseph Smith’s lifetime. The division occured after he was murdered and the division occured over leadership.

 

[SirThomasMore]

So no one ever left the Church during Joseph’s lifetime?

 

[why_me]

Cowdery objected to a lot. In the beginning, it was with Joseph violating the separation of Church and state. Later, it was also over Fanny Alger

“Finally, in January 1838, Cowdery wrote his brother Warren that he and Joseph Smith had “had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger’s was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.” Alger, a teenage maid living with the Smiths, may have been Joseph Smith’s first plural wife, a practice that Cowdery opposed.” Johnson, Benjamin (1903)

Later, his life was threatened: On June 17, 1838, President Sidney Rigdon announced to a large Mormon congregation that the dissenters were “as salt that had lost its savor” and that it was the duty of the faithful to cast the dissenters out “to be trodden beneath the feet of men.” Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2005), 349-53

By 1838, the fanny alger case was over. I have already said on a different thread that fanny was joseph’s first plural wife and there was no dirty nasty affair. Both of fanny’s parents were proud that Fanny was sealed to Joseph Smith. They died faithful members of the lds church in Utah. Her brother also was a faithful member in Utah. Now if this was a dirty affair, fanny’s parents would be talking about a sealing. They did not think that anything was wrong and neither did fanny. Fanny left the mormon camp when she was young and eventually married and had a troop of children. No problem with fanny.

 

[SirThomasMore]

By 1838, the fanny alger case was over. I have already said on a different thread that fanny was joseph’s first plural wife and there was no dirty nasty affair. Both of fanny’s parents were proud that Fanny was sealed to Joseph Smith. They died faithful members of the lds church in Utah. Her brother also was a faithful member in Utah. Now if this was a dirty affair, fanny’s parents would be talking about a sealing. They did not think that anything was wrong and neither did fanny. Fanny left the mormon camp when she was young and eventually married and had a troop of children. No problem with fanny.

Both Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery disagree with you.

 

[paulp1002]

The lds church did not divide during Joseph Smith’s lifetime. The division occured after he was murdered and the division occured over leadership.

The RLDS Church was founded in 1830, 14 years prior to JS death.

Just a minor correction…

 

[lax16]

The lds church did not divide during Joseph Smith’s lifetime. The division occured after he was murdered and the division occured over leadership.

The LDS church was started and founded by several men that were either excommunicated or left voluntarily. That would be a division right off the bat. These men were also witnesses to the BoM.

 

[lax16]

The lds church did not divide during Joseph Smith’s lifetime. The division occured after he was murdered and the division occured over leadership.

Remember the Mormons define apostasy as:

The people gradually disregard or disobey the teachings of the prophet. They eventually **reject the prophet and his teachings **and fall into apostasy.

(The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ page 4)

Oliver Cowdery (and others?) rejected the Prophet JS teachings on polygamy = apostasy

 

[paulp1002]

The RLDS Church was founded in 1830, 14 years prior to JS death.

Just a minor correction…

Not to mention that the church’s successor was JS’s oldest son JS III.

 

[lax16]

Not to mention that the church’s successor was JS’s oldest son JS III.

Really?? Is it still in existence?

Why did he start his own church?

 

[why_me]

Then why did Martin Harris and David Whitmer leave the church or were excommunicated?
This happened before JS died.

They were the part of the Three Witnesses, right?

Martin came back to the church. David stayed away. But both never denied what they saw or their testimony of the book of mormon.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses_4.pdf

fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses_3.pdf

 

[why_me]

Really?? Is it still in existence?

Why did he start his own church?

He didn’t. The church came into existence and he was asked to be its leader. But this was long after his father was murdered.

 

[paulp1002]

Really?? Is it still in existence?

Why did he start his own church?

The RLDS Church is now known as the Community of Christ Church and my understanding is that they are still around. Their website is cofchrist.org/

I don’t know all the reasons they broke away, one is something because the RLDS believes that the priesthood authority should be passed down like monoarchy and the LDS believe in relevation from God.

A couple other differences:

RLDS does not use the Pearl of Great Price or Book of Abraham (bcs it contradicts both the bible and BoM.

RLDS does not believe in the Temple rutals, such as endowments, secret names, oaths etc…

RLDS believe in the Trinity

RLDS believe in the ordination of women

RLDS do not believe that a man can become God.

 

[barnesms]

Both Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery disagree with you.

No, Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery disagree with Fanny Alger, her parents, and her brother.

 

[why_me]

Remember the Mormons define apostasy as:

The people gradually disregard or disobey the teachings of the prophet. They eventually **reject the prophet and his teachings **and fall into apostasy.

(The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ page 4)

Oliver Cowdery (and others?) rejected the Prophet JS teachings on polygamy = apostasy

And they went into apostasy. But oliver repented and returned to the lds church after Joseph was murdered. He never denied his testimony nor what he saw or his experience with the book of mormon.

Apostasy is not a mormon concept. Catholics can also be apostate.

 

[paulp1002]

He didn’t. The church came into existence and he was asked to be its leader. But this was long after his father was murdered.

The RLDS was functioning in 1829 but was officially organized in April 1830. Joseph Smith Jr. and Oliver Cowdery were accepted as the leaders of the church. This was 14 years before JS was murdered.

cofchrist.org/history/earlychurch.asp

 

[why_me]

Both Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery disagree with you.

Martin died a mormon. Oliver could have been mistaken. I only know that fanny’s parents saw no nasty affair. I provided a link. Oliver also was not that friendly with Joseph in 1838. Humans say stupid things in the heat of the moment.

 

[why_me]

The RLDS was functioning in 1829 but was officially organized in April 1830. Joseph Smith Jr. and Oliver Cowdery were accepted as the leaders of the church. This was 14 years before JS was murdered.

cofchrist.org/history/earlychurch.asp

The COC considered itself the original mormon church. And so, they would trace their origins as the lds church would to the same people. This is where you are getting confused. There was no split when JS was alive. Both JSjr and Oliver were the first and second elders of the lds church.