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dianaiad
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Actually, there are quite a few Mormon split-off sects. The RLDS was simply the largest one. The difference between Mormonism and Catholicism in this manner seems to be what we, collectively, DID about our heretics.
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barnesms
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For me as a LDS I use the scriptures as an identification of doctrine and beliefs of the Church. The scriptures, all of them, are believed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Everything outside of the scriptures may be inspired or may not be.
A possible comparison is Joseph Smith statements about the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha contains both truth and error, but was “mostly translated correctly” and any who read those writings with the Holy Spirit as a guide “shall obtain benefit therefrom”; without the Holy Ghost, a man “cannot be benefited” spiritually by reading the Apocrypha (D&C 91:5-6). Although the LDS has not had any official statements, these other writings may be of benefit using the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Revelations are recognized as such when they are included in the scriptures. If statements or writings have not been included, then if read, the Holy Spirit must be our guide.
In the LDS Church we do not have a doctrine of infallibility. Sometimes our leaders speak as a prophet and other times they are just men. I hope that answers your question.
Stephen168
New member
It doesn’t change the fact that Joseph Smith was wrong. You can not defend the fact that his boast was found to be wrong. As hard as you try to turn everything into an anti-catholic rant, Joseph Smith was wrong.
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barnesms
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The split you are talking about happened long after Smith’s death. During Joseph Smith’s lifetime he kept the Church together. After his death, the church did not have a prophet for several years. Smith was murdered in 1844 and in 1860 the RLDS began as an organization. Then it changed its name to RLDS in 1872. They again changed the name of their church in 2001.
Your declaration of being wrong is incorrect.
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barnesms
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Stephan, I don’t think Diana was attempting to be anti-Catholic. Her statement is off-message given the topic of this thread. However, it would be an interesting topic to discuss the history of how those identified as heretics have been treated in the past and today. If you were offended, we who are LDS would quickly apologize. His Peace be with you alway.
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SirThomasMore
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Doesn’t change that you have the same problem as the Catholic Church. According to your definitions of Apostasy, the LDS Church is now a false Church
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Kdesiel
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Thank you for the response.
So with works such as “The History of the Church” or “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” you rely on the Holy Spirit to testify to you what is prophesy and what isn’t?
I guess I’m asking not so much about Apocryphal Books as I am Books written by Mormon Prophets and sold in Mormon Book Stores.
So how do the General Conference talks fit into Scripture? Does the Church add those Talks into the Mormon cannon of Scripture if they are divinely inspired? Lets say an address is “Divinely Inspired and of a Prophetic nature” how does the Church decide to add it to Scripture?
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Kdesiel
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Barnes I appreciate the cordial response. I understand what you’re saying. A little background about myself. I was born and raised LDS, I served a Mission and was married in the Temple so I’m not a total novice when it comes to LDS beliefs.
Along this thread there have been some quotes which are pretty questionable to say the least. So when Modern Revelation is a pillar of your belief, new revelations being pronounced by your Prophets how do you differentiate between their Modern Revelation to their Opinion?
The last “Revelation” was the Declaration regarding the priesthood being extended to the Blacks in 1978.
Now when you have J.Smith set up as a Prophet, Seer, and Revalator as well as The Head of this and the Last and Great Dispensation, say things like “Men live on the Moon,” “I’ve done what even Jesus Christ couldn’t do in holding the Church together;” Teachings on Polygamy and The United Order, what is Divine Revelation and what isn’t?
How do you tell the difference?
If it divinely inspired and restored doctrine then shouldn’t all of the things taught and revealed by J.Smith still be in practice today? i.e. Plural Marriage; The Law of Consecration ect ect?
I guess the confusion lies with the more outlandish statements or controvercial teachings and how they pertain to the Gospel taught in the New Testament.
Sorry for my ramblings.
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Kdesiel
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I think Sir Thomas has a point, maybe we should start a new thread to address this topic.
According to the LDS definitions of Apostasy wouldn’t the LDS church today be an Apostate form of the LDS church founded by Joseph Smith?
What new and revealed Doctrines did Joseph Smith bring to light and how many of those New and Revealed Doctrines are still in practice today in the LDS Church?
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barnesms
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Your “ramblings” are just fine. In fact, they are excellent points. One of the weaknesses of the LDS Church is that there is nothing comparable Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which did not evolve in the Catholic Church until 1542 under the previous name of Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition. Such an organization would greatly facilitate what is divine and what is not. However, such an organization would also move the emphasis from gaining testimony by direction of the Holy Spirit to depending upon an organization of men purported to do the same thing.
The LDS Church would say all of Joseph Smith’s divine revelations are contained in either the Doctrine & Covenants or in the Pearl of Great Price. If it is not in there, it is not recognized as divine. Smith’s position as the first prophet of the last dispensation is a little unusual in that so much of what he said was recorded regardless of when he was speaking, even his ramblings and musings; which coincidentally did not include men on the moon. That was a statement by Oliver B. Huntington in 1881 recollecting his patriarchal blessing given by his father in 1837. Huntington’s memories as a ten year old were obviously affected by age. He also thought Joseph Smith Sr. gave him the blessing, but it was his own father. More importantly, the record of this blessing did not include men on the moon.
It is interesting how some of the teachings are not practiced today. For example, the Law of Consecration is actually practiced. All members who go through the temple covenant to give their all to the building of the Kingdom of God upon the earth among other things. You are probably referring to the United Order. During the time of both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, individual members volunteer to participate in a collective lifestyle. It was never lived by all members of the church and none of these groups lasted for extended periods of time. It has been said that the people were too selfish to live such a consecrated lifestyle.
Polygamy is really the best question. Many will say the 1890 Manifesto was really not a revelation but the government forcing the LDS Church to recant on their practice of polygamy or be destroyed by the United States of America. The practice of polygamy finally was stamped out and if any practice it then they are excommunicated from the LDS Church. However, it remains a belief, but its practice is forbidden at present. There have been estimates that approximately 5% to 20% of the members practiced polygamy at the height of its practice. The purpose of its practice was only allowed by those who voluntarily accepted the calling to live in such a manner, the propagation of righteous children, and to an extent the care of widowed women when so many men were killed by persecutions. LDS faithful will say the 1890 Manifesto was revelation; critics would say it was anything but a revelation.
I think we can look at history and see where God has desired his people to life a higher law only to see his people founder. Moses’ first commandments received from God is one example I can think of. Noah would be another time when God was so angry he destroyed all but a few. Thankfully, the law was fulfilled Jesus and we no longer need live the Law of Moses. God sees the whole plan and we see only as much as a mortal can. It does not surprise me that I and others don’t understand it.
On another note, I pray that you have found peace and joy within the Catholic Church. I hope your experience as a LDS has made you an even better Catholic. There is so much beauty and truth found with Catholicism that I understand your conversion and rejoice with you. I believe you were led by the Spirit to do so. May you continue to glorify our Savior and share his love with all you meet.
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barnesms
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Sir Thomas, I could not find the definition you were referring to in previous posts, Could you bring it forward so that I can understand your point better?
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SirThomasMore
Guest
It was on another thread. It was explained by a mormon that the fact that Luther and so many others broke away from the Catholic Church, that was evidence of the Apostasy
I, too, served a mission and was sealed in the temple
Stephen168
New member
Actually, the first split was a year after Joseph Smith invented his Church. There were about a half dozen splits before he dead.
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SteveVH
Guest
Weren’t the words of Jesus, as described in the gospels, written down by someone taking notes, many years after Jesus’ resurrection? Why are these authors given more credence than someone taking notes from their memories of Joseph Smith?
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lax16
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Then why did Martin Harris and David Whitmer leave the church or were excommunicated?
This happened before JS died.
They were the part of the Three Witnesses, right?
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lax16
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Yes!!!
I have brought this up several times before and am glad you are addressing it.
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Answersplease
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lax16
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Hi barnesms - I noticed you haven’t been answering my questions. I hope you don’t have me on ignore!
I will re-ask my questions here since the quote provided deals with JS involvement with polygamy and the other thread was about the Trinity.
It is my understanding that JS was involved with other women (which LDS call sealings).
Didn’t Oliver Cowdery object to this? Wasn’t he either excommunicated or he left the church voluntarily over polygamy?
This brings up two problems:
- Joseph Smith did not keep his church together like he said he did (OC was an original founding member and a witness to the BoM) = false prophecy
- If there was disagreement over JS prophecies, and OC was a church leader, then that means that the LDS church resulted in “conflicted teachings” = apostasy
I hope you get a chance to answer. thanks!!!
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SirThomasMore
Guest
Cowdery objected to a lot. In the beginning, it was with Joseph violating the separation of Church and state. Later, it was also over Fanny AlgerHi barnesms - I noticed you haven’t been answering my questions. I hope you don’t have me on ignore!
I will re-ask my questions here since the quote provided deals with JS involvement with polygamy and the other thread was about the Trinity.
It is my understanding that JS was involved with other women (which LDS call sealings).
Didn’t Oliver Cowdery object to this? Wasn’t he either excommunicated or he left the church voluntarily over polygamy?
This brings up two problems:
Why don’t LDS see it that way?
- Joseph Smith did not keep his church together like he said he did (OC was an original founding member and a witness to the BoM) = false prophecy
- If there was disagreement over JS prophecies, and OC was a church leader, then that means that the LDS church resulted in “conflicted teachings” = apostasy
I hope you get a chance to answer. thanks!!!
“Finally, in January 1838, Cowdery wrote his brother Warren that he and Joseph Smith had “had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger’s was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.” Alger, a teenage maid living with the Smiths, may have been Joseph Smith’s first plural wife, a practice that Cowdery opposed.” Johnson, Benjamin (1903)
Later, his life was threatened: On June 17, 1838, President Sidney Rigdon announced to a large Mormon congregation that the dissenters were “as salt that had lost its savor” and that it was the duty of the faithful to cast the dissenters out “to be trodden beneath the feet of men.” Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2005), 349-53
Oliver also wrote a history of the Church that stated that Joseph;s fist encounter with any being was with the Angel Moroni, NOT in a First Vision. This is not surprising since there are so many different versions of the fist vision.
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lax16
Guest
So if a founding member of the LDS church is in disagreement with the prophet…
no, wait a minute, I was told on another post that OC was a prophet too!!!
So, if a prophet/founding member/witness to the BoM, is in disagreement with another prophet/founding member/witness to the BoM then by Mormon definition the LDS church is in apostasy.
Definition from The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
Apostasy - When individuals, the Church, or entire nations forsake or abandon the gospel of Jesus Christ. Apostasy results in division, confusion, and loss of priesthood authority, or the right to act in the name of God.
“After he received priesthood authority, Joseph Smith was directed to organize the Church of Jesus Christ again on the earth. Through him, Jesus Christ again called Twelve Apostles.”
Was OC one of the Twelve Apostles?
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