Interfaith: a new dialogue between Muslims and Catholic

[KathleenGee]

4Horsemen,

Yes indeed.

Proslytizing Islam provides some good values as was shared here by the OP.

However, I am needing to know about the plight of non-Muslims where Sharia is practiced.

The human sacrifice in Mexico committed by the Aztecs was about 20% of the population, and the Aztecs oftentimes took teens from neighboring tribes for sacrifices to ensure that the sun would return the next day. (The neighboring tribes were the ones responsible for the slaughter at the end of the war. It was Mary of Guadalupe who finally brought peace to the various ethnic populations there.)

In the USA, our abortion rate is now about 25%. Infanticide. Murder. I tried giving my reasons for opposing abortion on Newsvine, and it was one of the reasons they banned me and I was always civil…I made one remark tongue and cheek and it was used …vs all the slurs that were coming on then about Christianity…

And in that ‘purging’ of us on Newsvine…I must say they drew an awful lot on the practices of fundamentalists from the South from times past, using the Bible to discriminate. So it is also imperative that Christianity work on its own American past for Christian unity. Because the Islamicists are poised to fill the void like they are doing in Europe.

However, the New World could become the center of Christianity some day.

 

[4Horsemen]

4Horsemen,

Proslytizing Islam provides some good values as was shared here by the OP.

** However, I am needing to know about the plight of non-Muslims where Sharia is practiced.**

The human sacrifice in Mexico committed by the Aztecs was about 20% of the population, and the Aztecs oftentimes took teens from neighboring tribes for sacrifices to ensure that the sun would return the next day. (The neighboring tribes were the ones responsible for the slaughter at the end of the war. It was Mary of Guadalupe who finally brought peace to the various ethnic populations there.)

In the USA, our abortion rate is now about 25%. Infanticide. Murder. I tried giving my reasons for opposing abortion on Newsvine, and it was one of the reasons they banned me and I was always civil…I made one remark tongue and cheek and it was used …vs all the slurs that were coming on then about Christianity…

And in that ‘purging’ of us on Newsvine…I must say they drew an awful lot on the practices of fundamentalists from the South from times past, using the Bible to discriminate. So it is also imperative that Christianity work on its own American past for Christian unity. Because the Islamicists are poised to fill the void like they are doing in Europe.

However, the New World could become the center of Christianity some day.

KathleenGee,

As for the plight of non-Muslims in a country where Shariah law is the law of the land, I know that Muslims who convert to Christianity or other faiths are in for trouble. But in a country like the U.S. that is governed by American precepts, Muslims would be required to follow them. However, there are enclaves of Muslims in the country (especially Detroit, Michigan) where they can probably still practice their own law within their sociological subgroup. You’ve heard of honor killings even in America just because a daughter wanted to date a Christian. Following is a website that has newsbytes about Muslim violence.

Of course, there was the recent violence of the Syrian Catholic cathedral in Baghdad that left 58 dead and at lest 75 wounded. I read that a 2 or 3 year old boy whose parents were killed kept wandering around saying "Enough . . . enough . . . " until someone finally shot him. (From The Wanderer). Two priests were killed as well.

lifesitenews.com/news/newsbytes-dec-2-islam?utm_source=LifeSiteNews.com+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=d78db9f62a-LifeSiteNews_com_US_Headlines12_03_2010&utm_medium=email

God sent Our Lady to Guadelupe also to end child sacrifice which was rampant. Our Lady appeared as a pregnant Aztec young girl. Natives to the area explained that the way Our Lady dressed is how pregnant women dress in their culture. It’s hard to believe that children were killed, but only the demon can instigate people to do such a horrendous thing. And children are still killed today, born and unborn. It’s just legal to kill the unborn.

I’m not familiar with Newsvine, but in so many ways, especially now it’s Christmas time, Christian-haters are trying to silence us. I used to post on the Chicago Tribue website, but it got very ugly before he 2008 elections and there were older homosexuals cruising for young guys. I guess they thought I was one. I played havoc with their heads though. I finally got them to believe I was from law enforcement checking the threads for law breakers.

As Christians, we should unite (sadly, there is so much division not only between Catholics and Protestants, but between Catholic rites; also, the pro-life movement is divided by the Personhood organizations like American Life League and the ones who are more into politcal candidates like National Right to Life and its affiliates).

All we can do is work and pray where God places us.

Many Blessings,
4Horsemen

 

[KathleenGee]

I just heard on a commentary on Fox News tonight that from what they are hearing…there is no Sharia creep happening in our country…there are groups here suing Americans to intimidate…but there are also Muslims integrating well…

Europe is another story.

But I see that someone here has been suspended…it is so hard to dialogue with Muslims…

 

[KathleenGee]

Was able to read more of your link…Sharia creep is happening in Canada…and that is not good because of its proximity…

I also read the link on ‘Between Rome and Mecca: Popes and Islam’, and how difficult it is to have dialogue with Islam.

My basic issue with Islam is its taking over the Holy Land and Constantinople, the general sentiment of Islam that ‘It lost Spain’, and and its militant side aiming to take the Vatican.

The Americas need to relentlessly demand foreigners integrate. And I say this to protect our Constitution, women, and our beliefs. The final concern is the millenia-old hatred from the Middle East towards one another…don’t want it here. We have had enough of the fall out from slavery in our country.

Towards the end of the war between the Spaniards and the Aztecs, it was so upsetting for them to see the Aztecs take their little toddlers up the steps for human sacrifice to help aid in winning the war. I spent some time studying ancient Mexican culture up to the Masonic Revolution. Very interesting…but tragic seeing how Mexico is today.

 

[Sister_Amy]

What does integration mean, exactly?

What I love about living in America and being an American are the freedoms I have.

But I think if America demanded that I dress a certain way, practice religion in a certain way, or raised my family a certain way, it wouldn’t be the America that I love.

I think when people come here, they actually do integrate. They learn the language, they put their kids in the schools, they get on the PTA. They go to work parties and sporting events. They might eat different kinds of food–and then enhance the epicurean landscape of their community. (I love ethnic restaurants!) They might choose to dress in a way they like better–and so what, if it doesn’t break any rules? (I.e., uncovering some body parts probably shouldn’t be allowed, but if everything is covered, is there a problem?) They might choose to teach their children a different language–perhaps to communicate with family members who still live overseas, or to help them stay in touch with a religious or cultural tradition? Not just Muslims, but Jews and a variety of ethnic and cultural groups like to send their children to afterschool programs reflecting their values.

Does that mean they aren’t “integrating?” If they still want their children to learn the language of their homeland? To continue practicing the same religion? To dress in a way they feel is dignified? To abstain from certain facets of popular culture which they find inappropriate, even immoral? Is that not “integrating?”

America is a place of great diversity and tolerance, and I love that.

In fact, just this week I had an interview with an immigration officer. In the room there was the Korean (American) immigration official, a Jewish (American) attorney, my Muslim (Pakistani) husband, and me, an American Muslim.

Kind of awesome, if you ask me.

 

[dzheremi]

Good points, Sister Amy. I agree wholeheartedly. A lot of fears about integration of Muslims apply to other places a lot more immediately than they would to the USA, anyway (places with longer, more direct involvement in Middle Eastern history and politics like Britain and France). While the USA is, for large segments of the Muslim world, “the Great Satan”, it shouldn’t be forgotten that even for Muslims, it is still the place to go for personal and economic advancement. I dare say that if the U.S.A. were not fanatically pro-Israel with regard to the Israel/Palestine conflict, a great deal of the anger of ordinary Muslims towards America would likely dissipate. The al-Qaeda types would still need to be dealt with, of course, but they don’t even attempt to be about “integration” in the first place, so they’re off the table anyway.

 

[4Horsemen]

While I agree that the U.S. shouldn’t be “frantically pro-Israel”, someone needs to protect that small country when it is surrounded by countries not always so friendly to Israel. Israel feels forced to give up territory that is rightfully hers. I read the book Because They Hate by Brigitte Gabriel, which was a real eye-opener.

 

[dzheremi]

It’s not really my business to get into politics here (I stay out of the Politics subforum for a reason). I meant that this is how America is seen around the world, including in the Middle East. Specific arguments as to whether or not that’s true/false or good/bad really belong to the political realm only. I know that the Vatican both recognizes Israel AND supports Palestinian statehood, and that ought to be good enough to allow for dialogue between Muslims and Catholics.

 

[Sister_Amy]

America’s defense and propping up of corrupt dictatorships in the Muslims world is probably as much to blame as its support for Israel. And while there are definitely plenty of Muslims out there who do hate America (although Brigitte Gabriel has no credibility with me) there are also a lot out there who think America is just the greatest place ever and want to move here, even if they have to scam someone over the internet to get here.



I think it’s possible to have a critical point of view (especially of policy) without that meaning a person “hates” whatever they’re critical of.

 

[dzheremi]

America’s defense and propping up of corrupt dictatorships in the Muslims world is probably as much to blame as its support for Israel.

This is also true.

I think it’s possible to have a critical point of view (especially of policy) without that meaning a person “hates” whatever they’re critical of.

That is indeed possible. I also have a critical view of some policy decisions, but don’t for a second hate America. However, I think it is also undeniable that for many (and, again, not just in the Middle East) America has become more of a metaphysical enemy than a real place. The same could be said, of course, of the image nurtured of the Middle East and of Muslims in the minds of many Americans and Westerners. The stereotypes and prejudices come from all sides, and nobody’s immune from them.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Totally agree with you, dzheremi.

 

[4Horsemen]

America’s defense and propping up of corrupt dictatorships in the Muslims world is probably as much to blame as its support for Israel. And while there are definitely plenty of Muslims out there who do hate America (although Brigitte Gabriel has no credibility with me) there are also a lot out there who think America is just the greatest place ever and want to move here, even if they have to scam someone over the internet to get here.



I think it’s possible to have a critical point of view (especially of policy) without that meaning a person “hates” whatever they’re critical of.

Just wondering why Brigitte Gabriel has no credibility with you. Her childhood was lost to terrorism in Lebanon in 1979 as her family had to hide out in a bomb shelter for seven years. She blames the radical element of Islam for their plight and that of their neighbors. Her story is very compellling. She is a journalist in the U.S. but worked as an anchor for World News, an Arabic news program. I remember reading that even neighbors became enemies.

As for the policies of the U.S., it may be best to stay out of conflicts, but when people around the world cry out for help against dictatorships, it’s hard to turn one’s back. Yet, we shouldn’t necessarily side completely with one country over another but have amicable relations with all.

And, of course I realize that most Muslims and others who migrate here just want to make a living and live in peace. The U.S. welcomes those who do and live according to our laws.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

I dare say that if the U.S.A. were not fanatically pro-Israel with regard to the Israel/Palestine conflict, a great deal of the anger of ordinary Muslims towards America would likely dissipate. The al-Qaeda types would still need to be dealt with, of course, but they don’t even attempt to be about “integration” in the first place, so they’re off the table anyway.

I don’t believe that for a minute, (that if the U.S.A. were not fanatically pro-Israel ) in fact I don’t see how, when you look at the larger picture and see all the persecution at the hands of islamists throughout the world. It would be totally different if there was absolutely no islamic terrorism outside of Isreal, then the connection could be made, but there is, so there has to be another reason for the hatred of the U.S. besides it ties with Israel. And anyway why is it so necessary for America to be less hated by those who support islamic terrorist, while others in the world are dying because of terrorism?

 

[dzheremi]

JPJ, you can analyze Islamic terrorism however you want (and I agree that Israel-Palestine is not the be all and end all of it) and it will remain the case that for average people in the Middle East the Israel-Palestine crisis is intimately connected to the political and religious violence and the anti-Western ideology that is so popular in many quarters.

It is important to note that prior to the more recent resurgence of Islamic violence against the rest of the world, the majority of the political violence coming out of the Middle East was led by nationalist/secular movements and people, ex. George Habash in Palestine, Michel Aflaq in Syria and Iraq (founded the Ba’ath Party), Habib Shartouni in Lebanon (the assassin of president-elect Bashir Gemayel), etc. There was no doubt also Islamic violence during the same time period, but purely nationalist/leftist/anti-colonial resistance hadn’t yet been completely supplanted by it as it seems to be now if you’re looking from the outside as we are. (Friends of mine from Iraq have told me that the resistance to the Americans was, in the very beginning of the most recent war, purely Iraqi-nationalist, but that was long ago overshadowed by foreign fighters from Saudi, Iran, etc. who fight for religious reasons).

p.s.- The three terrorists listed above are Christians, by the way. The Middle East is complicated like that, I suppose.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Just wondering why Brigitte Gabriel has no credibility with you. Her childhood was lost to terrorism in Lebanon in 1979 as her family had to hide out in a bomb shelter for seven years. She blames the radical element of Islam for their plight and that of their neighbors. Her story is very compellling. She is a journalist in the U.S. but worked as an anchor for World News, an Arabic news program. I remember reading that even neighbors became enemies.

As for the policies of the U.S., it may be best to stay out of conflicts, but when people around the world cry out for help against dictatorships, it’s hard to turn one’s back. Yet, we shouldn’t necessarily side completely with one country over another but have amicable relations with all.

And, of course I realize that most Muslims and others who migrate here just want to make a living and live in peace. The U.S. welcomes those who do and live according to our laws.

I don’t think it’s fair to take one person’s individual experience and use it to paint over a billion people with a single brush.

 

[benidict]

I don’t think it’s fair to take one person’s individual experience and use it to paint over a billion people with a single brush.

i dont think he was. it is interesting to note however, that even when it comes to holy days within Islam, we see conflict. take Ashura for example. half of Islam is in mourning, the other half are celebrating. this is most definitely a recipe for violence, is it not? it sure is where im at. and there are many who have nothing to do with either side who get caught in the cross fire. maybe if the Mulims would be willing to drop this commemoration of the grandson of Mohammeds death. it would be a start towards reconciliation between the two largest factions of Islam. Peace

 

[KathleenGee]

I woke up still reflecting on this whole issue of dialogue with Muslims.

First of all, the fundamentalists just can’t, and get violent.

Then there are those Muslims of www.NewAgeIslam.com…who are moderate and of reason, and my sympathy is with them.

I see the Middle East as the epicenter of religion…not sub groups …but the place of major religion that draws on the belief system of billions of people.

I also see it as the epicenter of two kinds of religion – that which saves human life as Christ has done combined with those who have a respect for all people vs. those who deform religion and use it to kill other people.

I realize there is tribalism connected with Islam and Hinduism…and again those subgroups of different beliefs and practices in those regions. When this young 17 year old girl was stoned to death, and her killing recorded on a cell phone camera, it made me cry so deeply because she looked like one of my own daughters when she was 17.

I also cried so much that I got on my knees in the kitchen when I saw an unborn baby, this one a male, who was a full term baby, who also looked like my daughter, his little hand pointing to his heart, who was ripped apart. There is a source who thought the baby was used for scientific purposes.’

Mothers around the world never forget the the experience of having a new born child in their arms. Never. You see mothers mourning over their soldier sons and calling them ‘baby’…because they still see an image of that earliest memory still etched on the living bodies and corpses of their grown children.

I have seen Islamicist mothers crying over their sons we would deem as terrorists…I watched them and then drew on my own memory.

I hate the use of murder and slaughter to promote God, and the wiping out of peoples’ religious heritage, and the enslavement of other peoples be it the Bible or the Koran.

If anything, we are celebrating the Feast of the Innocent Child. I pray all peoples of the world come to acknowledge and respect this feast and season.

 

[Sister_Amy]

i dont think he was. it is interesting to note however, that even when it comes to holy days within Islam, we see conflict. take Ashura for example. half of Islam is in mourning, the other half are celebrating. this is most definitely a recipe for violence, is it not? it sure is where im at. and there are many who have nothing to do with either side who get caught in the cross fire. maybe if the Mulims would be willing to drop this commemoration of the grandson of Mohammeds death. it would be a start towards reconciliation between the two largest factions of Islam. Peace

I was referring to the author he mentioned.

And I’d like to point out, just as an FYI, that Shi’a do not account for “half” of Muslims as someone might infer from your post. Rather, they account for no more than 15% of Muslims in the world. So “half celebrating” and “half mourning” isn’t inaccurate. Up to 15% might be mourning the death of Hussein, which happens to occur on the same day in which the Prophet Muhammad (saws) directed Muslim to fast (not exactly celebrating–but fasting.) Sunni Muslims make up about 85% of Muslims in the world.

 

[Nephets]

I only read the first few pages of this topic, and became instantly disgusted enough to post here.

First of all, I am appalled my the mistreatment we are all giving each other here, we are all equals in the eyes of God, and we are to treat each other as such.
No matter your belief, you should be respectful, and just because we Catholics think we are correct, does not give us the right to bash the Islamic faith and their followers.

I will not single out anyone, but has anyone thought for a single instance, that the Islamic faith is the only one to have extremist groups? What about the Salem Witch trials in Protestant New England, the Inquisition in Christian Europe, or the Catholic Crusades?

All of these actions were carried out in the name of God, and none of these actions were holy or righteous, you treat suicide-bombers and terrorists as if they represent the entire faith that is Islam, and you are wrong.

There are many, perfectly peaceful Muslims who do not hate America or Christianity.

You state that the Islamic faith is a house divided, that the Sunni and the Shi’ite are great examples of a faith gone wrong, yet you fail to realize the debates and the differences between the Christians sects, the bloody incidents between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland, and the modern debates between Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Baptists, Greek Orthodox, Catholics, Episcopalians, and the hundreds of other Christian sects there are.

You state that the Islamic faith preaches the unification of the World under one faith, Islam, but you fail to realize that the Bible says the same things in the Old Testament, and modern Christians practice that all the time when they try to convert others.

The world needs to be unified under one GLOBAL religion, that is true, God resides inside each and every one of us, none of us know the whole answer, but as a whole, as a unified World, we can find it.

Everyone on this website, and this entire world, who views topics like these without an open mind and a tolerant heart are the most disgusting and ignorant people alive, and they should be ashamed.

Faith does not constitute blind attacks on those who do not believe the same as you, true faith is believing, not blindly, but believing because your heart, soul, and mind know what is right, true faith, true 100% belief has nothing to do with “I am right because my Church says so”. True faith occurs when you can say “I am a human being, and I believe in what is right and true, because I have seen God, and I know the Scripture, and I know that if I were to die today, no matter what is true, or what is false, I will die knowing that I have been a good person, a benefit to the world, and I have earned my place in the afterlife I believe in.”

 

[Cinette]

I only read the first few pages of this topic, and became instantly disgusted enough to post here.

First of all, I am appalled my the mistreatment we are all giving each other here, we are all equals in the eyes of God, and we are to treat each other as such.
No matter your belief, you should be respectful, and just because we Catholics think we are correct, does not give us the right to bash the Islamic faith and their followers.

I will not single out anyone, but has anyone thought for a single instance, that the Islamic faith is the only one to have extremist groups? What about the Salem Witch trials in Protestant New England, the Inquisition in Christian Europe, or the Catholic Crusades?

All of these actions were carried out in the name of God, and none of these actions were holy or righteous, you treat suicide-bombers and terrorists as if they represent the entire faith that is Islam, and you are wrong.

There are many, perfectly peaceful Muslims who do not hate America or Christianity.

You state that the Islamic faith is a house divided, that the Sunni and the Shi’ite are great examples of a faith gone wrong, yet you fail to realize the debates and the differences between the Christians sects, the bloody incidents between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland that was political and religion was used as an excuse, and the modern debates between Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Baptists, Greek Orthodox, Catholics, Episcopalians, and the hundreds of other Christian sects there are.

You state that the Islamic faith preaches the unification of the World under one faith, Islam, but you fail to realize that the Bible says the same things in the Old Testament, and modern Christians practice that all the time when they try to convert others.

The world needs to be unified under one GLOBAL religion, that is true, God resides inside each and every one of us, none of us know the whole answer, but as a whole, as a unified World, we can find it.

Everyone on this website, and this entire world, who views topics like these without an open mind and a tolerant heart are the most disgusting and ignorant people alive, and they should be ashamed.before you call anyone ignorant you must educate yourself.

Faith does not constitute blind attacks on those who do not believe the same as you, true faith is believing, not blindly, but believing because your heart, soul, and mind know what is right, true faith, true 100% belief has nothing to do with “I am right because my Church says so”. True faith occurs when you can say “I am a human being, and I believe in what is right and true, because I have seen God, and I know the Scripture, and I know that if I were to die today, no matter what is true, or what is false, I will die knowing that I have been a good person, a benefit to the world, and I have earned my place in the afterlife I believe in.”

*With all due respect I do not think you know your history very well.

The Inquisition and Crusades was not extremist at all. I suggest you get some information on the subject.

I do believe that there are many good Muslims - I have met some. However, the Qur’an leaves one aghast! It looks more like a manual for terrorism.

This thread is a dialogue for people who would like to understand Islam better. I have made a friend through this thread and I hope to learn from him.

I find that mostly Muslims are not vocal enough* against the terrible sufferings which radical Muslims inflict on Christians - all Christians.

I notice that you are new to Catholic Answers. Welcome and I hope that you will participate and learn as I have.

Cinette