Interfaith: a new dialogue between Muslims and Catholic

[men0wjv]

Pax vobiscum,

From Nostra Aetate urged both of us to: work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

There has been some good work since 1965, but we still are somewhat estranged. I wish to ask: what is it, that acts as a barrier for mutual understanding and promote benefit for all mankind?

From an inter-faith meeting, I was surprised when a really splendid Catholic said, I was the first Muslim he’d met who hadn’t tried to convert him. This shows a rather arrogant and disrespectful attitude from some of my brethren which is a shame and will do nothing for mutual understanding. Maybe this attitude is more prevalent amongst Muslims?

Firstly we need to put our egos aside for this endeavor to work, so let us make this thread full of respect; asking and listening with aim to find out more rather than pin some agenda on the other group no matter all credible evidence pointing to the contrary.

Dominus vobiscum

 

[Reuben_J]

You have just brushed it as a lie my reference to this story about the Jewish Poet, Kab, in the other thread. How is this any respect?

 

[men0wjv]

You have just brushed it as a lie my reference to this story about the Jewish Poet, Kab, in the other thread. How is this any respect?

Give me a chance to answer it… Anyway, like I’ve posted there the case in question Ka’b bin Al Ashraf was that he committed treason. See sunnipath.com/library/Books/B0033P0026.aspx#Ka‘b bin Al-Ashraf, killed for further reading.

If you want respect the you have to give it my friend and so arrogantly and arbitrarily making unfounded claims against my religion is not going to bring about endearment. I would not make any such claims against the Papacy or the Church because its just plain bad manners. If I had a misunderstanding on a particular point about another faith, I may phrase the question as follows. Do you see the difference?

I have looked into a lot of Church history and teaching and I see much similarity with Islam and just general good sense. By the grace of God I have found that there is much misrepresentation toward the Catholic Church and for some reason it seems socially acceptable here in the UK??? Perhaps this is baggage from the reformation? One thing that does still puzzle me is the common claim that the Church took pagan Gods and made them into saints to help establish Catholicism here. This seems an unlikely instruction to have come from Rome so is it something that just happened in the UK through a small number of individuals out of Rome’s control? Or just complete fabrication? Please explain, I would appreciate a little bit of detail. Thank-you

 

[dolphinlove]

Dodge the answer with a capital D

 

[Reuben_J]

Give me a chance to answer it… Anyway, like I’ve posted there the case in question Ka’b bin Al Ashraf was that he committed treason. See sunnipath.com/library/Books/B0033P0026.aspx#Ka‘b bin Al-Ashraf, killed for further reading.

If you want respect the you have to give it my friend and so arrogantly and arbitrarily making unfounded claims against my religion is not going to bring about endearment. I would not make any such claims against the Papacy or the Church because its just plain bad manners. If I had a misunderstanding on a particular point about another faith, I may phrase the question as follows. Do you see the difference?

I have looked into a lot of Church history and teaching and I see much similarity with Islam and just general good sense. By the grace of God I have found that there is much misrepresentation toward the Catholic Church and for some reason it seems socially acceptable here in the UK??? Perhaps this is baggage from the reformation? One thing that does still puzzle me is the common claim that the Church took pagan Gods and made them into saints to help establish Catholicism here. This seems an unlikely instruction to have come from Rome so is it something that just happened in the UK through a small number of individuals out of Rome’s control? Or just complete fabrication? Please explain, I would appreciate a little bit of detail. Thank-you

Come on man, this is a forum. My statement needs not necessary be the last word. It is there for rebuttal or approval depends on your viewpoint. Maybe you should be more of a man to stomach the discussion in a public internet forum. I have never meant to insult you or anything. All you need to do is to read my earlier post. All I did was to voice out my thought. Maybe it seems arrogant but don’t you think it may look so because my thought is different from yours and not what you expected?

Not everybody is like you who can phrase their words nicely. I have always tried to do that but my command of the language has never been that good and sometimes it can appear as too bland or blunt. However I always make sure that I do not use insulting word for your prophet or your religion. The bottom line is I thought I can always bring out a point or a thought.

Even if I made an erroneous statement, what’s wrong is it for you to clarify it. As for the truth or who is right or wrong, nobody can really say for certainty especially if it between two view points. I am appalled at your reaction which has become no difference from any of the Muslim posters that I came across here.

The Catholic faith and belief is opened for discussion here. You need only to open such threads. The difference must be we are there to answer for our faith. We don’t just shut people up or ignore them. But since you are so determine to shut me out, then I have to oblige. Probably there are better Catholic posters here who would be your preference to dialogue with you.

 

[men0wjv]

Come on man, this is a forum. My statement needs not necessary be the last word. It is there for rebuttal or approval depends on your viewpoint. Maybe you should be more of a man to stomach the discussion in a public internet forum. I have never meant to insult you or anything. All you need to do is to read my earlier post. All I did was to voice out my thought. Maybe it seems arrogant but don’t you think it may look so because my thought is different from yours and not what you expected?

Not everybody is like you who can phrase their words nicely. I have always tried to do that but my command of the language has never been that good and sometimes it can appear as too bland or blunt. However I always make sure that I do not use insulting word for your prophet or your religion. The bottom line is I thought I can always bring out a point or a thought.

Finally we are all human again. Writing is quite a difficult medium to express something since most of our communication is non verbal. Perhaps we have hit the first barrier, we need to be extra careful. Thank-you for the kind words, but I have still made mistakes and I am sorry if I have offended you.

We will differ and thats fine so there will have to be an ‘agreeing to disagree’ element. The example in question may be an example of this? We understand that the wisdom behind the Prophet’s (pbuh) actions was to show the rest of Ka’b’s tribe that should they reject an agreed treaty, incite and join forces with the enemy then force will be used if diplomacy fails. Interestingly this action brought peace because Ka’b’s tribe was subdued and did not follow up their revolutionary plans. You may disagree with these methods, but I think anyone will say its fairly reasonable at least. I don’t think there is much more that can be said.

Go in peace

PS: Would like my question answering if anyone has the time

 

[benidict]

Pax vobiscum,

From Nostra Aetate urged both of us to: work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

There has been some good work since 1965, but we still are somewhat estranged. I wish to ask: what is it, that acts as a barrier for mutual understanding and promote benefit for all mankind?

From an inter-faith meeting, I was surprised when a really splendid Catholic said, I was the first Muslim he’d met who hadn’t tried to convert him. This shows a rather arrogant and disrespectful attitude from some of my brethren which is a shame and will do nothing for mutual understanding. Maybe this attitude is more prevalent amongst Muslims?

Firstly we need to put our egos aside for this endeavor to work, so let us make this thread full of respect; asking and listening with aim to find out more rather than pin some agenda on the other group no matter all credible evidence pointing to the contrary.

Dominus vobiscum

hmmm… let me see. what could possibly act as a barrier to mutual understanding? let me see… could it be the terrorist who hate the west with such a passion? could it be that extreme islams goal is the globalization of their religion by any means necessary? could it be that you cannot even work things out between your own sects? this i am well familar with living, and fighting in iraq. i would have to say it is the 10 million muslims who want all out warfare with the infidels who are the barrier. the middle east needs to abandon this culture of death they promote, and start utilizing more of the talents i know for a fact are there. agriculture, industry, art, science. the people of the middle east are good people for the most part. they need a reformation within their own faith to get rid of the extremist. then maybe we can talk. iraq has much potential.if they could get rid of the iranian and syrian influence and violence, and the intrareligious fighting, then this country could really grow. peace

 

[men0wjv]

hmmm… let me see. what could possibly act as a barrier to mutual understanding? let me see… could it be the terrorist who hate the west with such a passion? could it be that extreme islams goal is the globalization of their religion by any means necessary? could it be that you cannot even work things out between your own sects? this i am well familar with living, and fighting in iraq. i would have to say it is the 10 million muslims who want all out warfare with the infidels who are the barrier. the middle east needs to abandon this culture of death they promote, and start utilizing more of the talents i know for a fact are there. agriculture, industry, art, science. the people of the middle east are good people for the most part. they need a reformation within their own faith to get rid of the extremist. then maybe we can talk. iraq has much potential.if they could get rid of the iranian and syrian influence and violence, and the intrareligious fighting, then this country could really grow. peace

Firstly may I just show you my respects I do not really agree with the whole Iraq situation, but I have no ill feeling towards you brave people who are doing your job.

Yes the terrorists and extremists (10 million?) are a problem. To solve a problem requires knowing where is comes from. With these extremists the problem is multi-factoral that requires quite a deep knowledge of: the Middle East’s history, social and political changes and the rise of the Islamist sect. I would rather not devote another thread solely to apologetics for terrorism etc. suffice to say that this is a problem born out of modernity and not classical Islam. Your suggestion of a reformation is therefore not what is required, but rather a revival. These politically charged militant sects that disregard tradition are similar in someways to the more puritanical ‘solar scriptura’ protestant movements of the reformation. In fact the Islamic reformation is already happening; the old authority structure and order is changing and these off shoots are the result. The reformation was Europe’s bloodiest period (save the WWI and WWII) and so it is not too surprising that hostilities would start in a Muslim equivalent. Although we are in complete agreement that they do need to be gone first and if this were the case in Irag then peace would bear fruit of the pinnacles of civilization.

Some suggest the mainstream Sunni Muslims should be more vocal in their condemnation of terrorist activity. Maybe this is the case? I also feel that Muslims need to equip themselves with knowledge to point out these extremists as the fraudulent groups they are. With God’s Grace, I am working on it. Pax

 

[woodland_poet]

The fundamental divide between Islam and Christianity is Christ. The Catholic Church and Christians everywhere hold that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That alone as a historical perspective is the only view of the person known as Jesus that holds any validity. Islam holds that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God. The Quran teaches repeatedly that any who make themselves or others peers or equals with God are worthy of unending hell in the afterlife. So here we have two views: Jesus as the only source of light or Jesus as the cause of man’s eventuality in hell. But I ask you anyone in the Islam faith, how does God love man? We are told in the Quran that God is all wise, all powerful, the creator of heaven and earth, capable and rightfully able to forgive whom he will. Islam teaches that it would be unbecoming of God to become man or to have a son. Through Jesus however, God says of course we are not worthy of such condescension, but nevertheless, because God is so powerful, because he can do what he will, he will become man and make man worthy. And he will make man worthy not because of anything that men have done, but because of God’s great power and perfect will. In Jesus, God says that only what He can do, can allow us to escape the worthy fire that awaits as punishment for breaking His just commands. Islam says serve and obey God. Christ says, love God, because God is Love. In Jesus God asserts that no man is worthy to make the case for man’s salvation for God. So in Jesus, God says, I will become the man who is worthy to plead all of man’s case before God the Father who is a just judge. Jesus is the love of God who spares us the worthy and just wrath of a God offended by sin. And it is through the Spirit, the paraclete, the advocate, that we walk in spirit to bring the good news of Jesus triumph over death and forgiveness of sin for all men, in all times and places. Does Islam reject this great gift? This I believe must be the question that all Christendom asks of Islam. Christ speaks of the just power and authority of God, Christ who is God who has taken on the flesh of a man either to forgive because of the faith and love of imperfect men, or not to forgive the proud, the sinful and deceitful because it is His just authority to do so. And he himself, Jesu who is Christ, says that His life and death and ressurrection will be the sword that divides all men. What is Islam’s answer to Christ? Through obediance and love Christ offers not merely forgiveness and pardon, but friendship, communion with God who is reaches out to His creation with love. What awaits, is not merely clear running waters and fruit in heaven, but God himself as the flowing water and fruit that gives life clear and eternal to men. What does Islam offer?

 

[JHow]

… I wish to ask: what is it, that acts as a barrier for mutual understanding and promote benefit for all mankind?..

Violence. No matter the source.

 

[Silyosha]

May I interject?
I really can’t believe the attitude of some of the posters on this forum when conversing with Muslim people. The tone of certain remarks is so vicious, so cold–it gives me chills to read. Sure, Catholics do not agree that Islam is the religion to follow, but that does not mean we have liscense to say that there is no distinction between the majority of the Muslim population and violent extremists. To do so is disgusting. There are Christian extremists, too (Westboro Baptist Church, anyone?), and who wants to be profiled as “just another bigoted, racist, ignorant Christian” because of what the rest of the world sees when they look at such a small, hateful faction? I personally will never profess to a religion other than Catholocism, and I do not agree with the teachings of Islam, but that doesn’t mean I can go and assume that every Muslim is against the West. This thread is obviously meant to bridge relations between Catholics and Muslims, not continue to drive a rift between the faiths on this forum. Let’s just use the thread as the OP intended–a basis for asking and answering questions about one another’s faiths, even if we don’t agree with them–without such flagrant attitudes. I’ve never seen anything like this.
Just my two cents.
God bless you all. + Let’s behave properly and lovingly toward our neighbors. (Hmm…I wonder…I seem to recall reading something along those lines…can’t remember where.)

And while I’m here, I do actually have a question for the OP. Probably the first sincere one on this thread. My question is, what is the general view of Pope Benedict XVI in the Muslim community? Is he thought to be doing a pretty good job with interfaith relations?

 

[JHow]

… My question is, what is the general view of Pope Benedict XVI in the Muslim community? Is he thought to be doing a pretty good job with interfaith relations?

This is a good question, particularly since the Regensburg Lecture is now some years behind us. I am interested in the answer.

 

[men0wjv]

May I interject?
I really can’t believe the attitude of some of the posters on this forum when conversing with Muslim people. The tone of certain remarks is so vicious, so cold–it gives me chills to read. Sure, Catholics do not agree that Islam is the religion to follow, but that does not mean we have liscense to say that there is no distinction between the majority of the Muslim population and violent extremists. To do so is disgusting. There are Christian extremists, too (Westboro Baptist Church, anyone?), and who wants to be profiled as “just another bigoted, racist, ignorant Christian” because of what the rest of the world sees when they look at such a small, hateful faction? I personally will never profess to a religion other than Catholocism, and I do not agree with the teachings of Islam, but that doesn’t mean I can go and assume that every Muslim is against the West. This thread is obviously meant to bridge relations between Catholics and Muslims, not continue to drive a rift between the faiths on this forum. Let’s just use the thread as the OP intended–a basis for asking and answering questions about one another’s faiths, even if we don’t agree with them–without such flagrant attitudes. I’ve never seen anything like this.
Just my two cents.
God bless you all. + Let’s behave properly and lovingly toward our neighbors. (Hmm…I wonder…I seem to recall reading something along those lines…can’t remember where.)

And while I’m here, I do actually have a question for the OP. Probably the first sincere one on this thread. My question is, what is the general view of Pope Benedict XVI in the Muslim community? Is he thought to be doing a pretty good job with interfaith relations?

God bless you Silyosha

Admittedly I was also surprised by the vicious tone of some posters. It seems to stem from paranoia of the ‘they,’ a poorly defined boogeyman. I see the same kind of mentality from the few terrorist sympathisers I’ve met. I try and cut their deluded conspiratorial mindeset by pointing out that even if the Free Masons (they of often are the they???) were wanting to deliberately bring down Islam, we don’t care because God will take care of them; we should be more concerned with how we’ll fair on the day of judgment (nice signature btw). This irrational fear just shows a lack of faith. So the irony is, is that those paranoid of terrorism are actually of the same mindset as the terrorists!

A good and welcome question although perhaps quite a difficult one to answer. I am a Muslim from the UK that generally frequents University educated circles, thus I’ll have a certain skew that may not be wholly representative.

From my perspective and my close circles of friends then yes we feel Pope Benedict XVI is doing great work for inter-faith. One of my teachers (T J Winter also known as Abdul Hakim Murad) from Cambridge University is at the forefront of the Common Word dialogue and speaks of good relations with the Pontiff. He has given many lectures on how more Orthodox faiths have similar World views and thus should join forces against this post modernist world to re-establish God as the centre of our affairs - rather like, the then Cardinal Ratzinger, articulates in the excellent lecture ‘Europe’s Crisis of Culture:’ ‘veluti si Deus daretur.’ I would say that is how the more ‘middle class’ UK Muslim would view the current Pope.

The masses are of cause a different matter. I do not think the outrageous UK media representation of Pope Benedict as being a pedophilic, homophobic, AIDS speading ex-Nazi helps (sorry, but their words). The Regensburg Lecture did not help his PR either, not because of the actual lecture per se (not everyone actually bothers to read these things, I thought it was good) but because the media tried to present it as an Islamophobic agenda. Because of the above, many have a not so good opinion, since that is all they ‘know.’ Generally his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, was viewed in a better light by Muslims.

I also think that, sad as it is, a significant portion of Muslims don’t care. During Islam’s ‘Golden Age,’ the mentality towards Christianity and Judaism was that it would wither out of existence; they had their time, but now the new faith will supersede them. Perhaps this mentality has continued? It is an arrogant assumption and perhaps our current abasement is a lesson from God.

All of that said, the default position in Islam and thus most Muslims is one of good relations with Christians:

“…and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (5:82)."

Those that are intelligent enough to possess discernment also realise that not all Christian denominations are the same (which is of course what the verse is referring to) and Catholicism, Orthodox and High Church Anglicanism are the groups nearest in love.

Hope that helps, God bless

 

[men0wjv]

The fundamental divide between Islam and Christianity is Christ … What does Islam offer?

Not sure what you really wanted out of this post? If you were trying to say my religion is better than yours then its a bit futile and inappropriate give the context, don’t you think? Were you trying to ask about God’s Immanence in Islam? I’ll wait for a more well thought out question - like we discussed with Reuben please choose your words carefully

 

[benidict]

Firstly may I just show you my respects I do not really agree with the whole Iraq situation, but I have no ill feeling towards you brave people who are doing your job.

Yes the terrorists and extremists (10 million?) are a problem. To solve a problem requires knowing where is comes from. With these extremists the problem is multi-factoral that requires quite a deep knowledge of: the Middle East’s history, social and political changes and the rise of the Islamist sect. I would rather not devote another thread solely to apologetics for terrorism etc. suffice to say that this is a problem born out of modernity and not classical Islam. Your suggestion of a reformation is therefore not what is required, but rather a revival. These politically charged militant sects that disregard tradition are similar in someways to the more puritanical ‘solar scriptura’ protestant movements of the reformation. In fact the Islamic reformation is already happening; the old authority structure and order is changing and these off shoots are the result. The reformation was Europe’s bloodiest period (save the WWI and WWII) and so it is not too surprising that hostilities would start in a Muslim equivalent. Although we are in complete agreement that they do need to be gone first and if this were the case in Irag then peace would bear fruit of the pinnacles of civilization.

Some suggest the mainstream Sunni Muslims should be more vocal in their condemnation of terrorist activity. Maybe this is the case? I also feel that Muslims need to equip themselves with knowledge to point out these extremists as the fraudulent groups they are. With God’s Grace, I am working on it. Pax

there are also Shiite Muslims terrorizing Sunni Muslims where i am at. i would agree with much of what you say. and you are much more on the mark saying a revival is what is in order, instead of a reformation. Islam has much to offer. and any problems to be solved within it, must come from the Muslim community. there have been bright spots in the history of Islam. spain being one of them. you actually had Jews and Muslims living side by side, opening up centers of learning together. what changed? also the Muslim people have had their share of persecution, which i also hate. the most recent in the former yugoslavia. i only wish my government could have intervened there sooner. i am getting my parents church to get together activity books, soccer balls and such to give to the kids here. they have very little. dont know about the economics in your country, but still a long way to go in Iraq here. wish we could stay. im actually thinking of coming back someday as a civilian to work here. that will be some years down the road. i see alot of potential here. Peace to you and yours.

 

[Silyosha]

God bless you Silyosha

Admittedly I was also surprised by the vicious tone of some posters. It seems to stem from paranoia of the ‘they,’ a poorly defined boogeyman. I see the same kind of mentality from the few terrorist sympathisers I’ve met. I try and cut their deluded conspiratorial mindeset by pointing out that even if the Free Masons (they of often are the they???) were wanting to deliberately bring down Islam, we don’t care because God will take care of them; we should be more concerned with how we’ll fair on the day of judgment (nice signature btw). This irrational fear just shows a lack of faith. So the irony is, is that those paranoid of terrorism are actually of the same mindset as the terrorists!

A good and welcome question although perhaps quite a difficult one to answer. I am a Muslim from the UK that generally frequents University educated circles, thus I’ll have a certain skew that may not be wholly representative.

From my perspective and my close circles of friends then yes we feel Pope Benedict XVI is doing great work for inter-faith. One of my teachers (T J Winter also known as Abdul Hakim Murad) from Cambridge University is at the forefront of the Common Word dialogue and speaks of good relations with the Pontiff. He has given many lectures on how more Orthodox faiths have similar World views and thus should join forces against this post modernist world to re-establish God as the centre of our affairs - rather like, the then Cardinal Ratzinger, articulates in the excellent lecture ‘Europe’s Crisis of Culture:’ ‘veluti si Deus daretur.’ I would say that is how the more ‘middle class’ UK Muslim would view the current Pope.

The masses are of cause a different matter. I do not think the outrageous UK media representation of Pope Benedict as being a pedophilic, homophobic, AIDS speading ex-Nazi helps (sorry, but their words). The Regensburg Lecture did not help his PR either, not because of the actual lecture per se (not everyone actually bothers to read these things, I thought it was good) but because the media tried to present it as an Islamophobic agenda. Because of the above, many have a not so good opinion, since that is all they ‘know.’ Generally his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, was viewed in a better light by Muslims.

I also think that, sad as it is, a significant portion of Muslims don’t care. During Islam’s ‘Golden Age,’ the mentality towards Christianity and Judaism was that it would wither out of existence; they had their time, but now the new faith will supersede them. Perhaps this mentality has continued? It is an arrogant assumption and perhaps our current abasement is a lesson from God.

All of that said, the default position in Islam and thus most Muslims is one of good relations with Christians:

“…and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (5:82)."

Those that are intelligent enough to possess discernment also realise that not all Christian denominations are the same (which is of course what the verse is referring to) and Catholicism, Orthodox and High Church Anglicanism are the groups nearest in love.

Hope that helps, God bless

Thanks for your reply. It’s interesting to see how other religions (in general, or otherwise) view the Holy Father, whether the view is positive or not. Unfortunately it feels like most people, Christian and otherwise, see only the image that the media projects. But then again, whose fault is that?

Oh yeah…I did want to bring up one particular aspect of Islam that I admire–the push for modesty. I think it’s wrong in the instance of actually forcing someone to wear something they don’t want, but that clearly isn’t the case the majority of the time in the Muslim community. I think it’s interesting that the Bible says women must cover their heads in church, but a lot of people make such a fuss over Muslim women wearing the hijab, when it was actually first a requirement for Jewish women and, then, early Christian women. Referring to the pic in my signature…what does that look like on Mary’s head?

 

[woodland_poet]

Not sure what you really wanted out of this post? If you were trying to say my religion is better than yours then its a bit futile and inappropriate give the context, don’t you think? Were you trying to ask about God’s Immanence in Islam? I’ll wait for a more well thought out question - like we discussed with Reuben please choose your words carefully

I’m addressing the differences between who Christians say Christ is and who Muslims say Christ is. The center of all Christianity is Christ. We believe that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God and that through Him, we may know God. Muslims do not believe this. How does Islam say that God and man may know each other? Or rather, what is the relationship between God and man in Islam?

I know that any Christian would jump at the chance to answer the question: What does Christianity offer? Whether it was asked by a Muslim, a Jew or an Atheist.

 

[men0wjv]

there are also Shiite Muslims terrorizing Sunni Muslims where i am at

Yeah this is a problem too, although interestingly a bit of a new one. I think the Shi’ite feel a little aggrieved after Sadam’s oppression - many of my Iraqi Shia friends had family tortured and killed hence why they fled to the UK

im actually thinking of coming back someday as a civilian to work here. that will be some years down the road. i see alot of potential here. Peace to you and yours.

My respect to you is clearly not enough, you are better than me. Thank-you for teaching me humility. God bless you and your family

 

[men0wjv]

I admire–the push for modesty…

Some Muslims did some research here in the UK where they showed people pictures of nuns in habits and then pictures of Muslim women wearing the headscarf. For the nuns they said things like pious, honorable, good etc For the Muslim women they said things like backward, ignorant, oppressed etc??? Where this double standards comes from I don’t know for sure, but maybe the media?

 

[jakasaki]

It’s not just Sunni against Shia - let’s not forget the poor Ahmadi muslims who are being targeted from all directions, especially in Pakistan.