Interfaith: a new dialogue between Muslims and Catholic

[jakasaki]

Some Muslims did some research here in the UK where they showed people pictures of nuns in habits and then pictures of Muslim women wearing the headscarf. For the nuns they said things like pious, honorable, good etc For the Muslim women they said things like backward, ignorant, oppressed etc??? Where this double standards comes from I don’t know for sure, but maybe the media?

Let’s not compare Nuns to muslim women who wear the hijab and all other head coverings a muslim woman might have to wear -

Muslim women marry & have children & in some cases, their husband is allowed to have up to 4 wives.

She is not allowed to travel allone without an escort -

She needs a husbands permission to leave the house for shopping… etc…

A Nun is does not marry, have children nor does she have a husband - she has given her life to God, Church & charity.

A Nun DOES not neet a male escort to leave the convent/monastery to travel or go shopping.

I’m sure there are more things to write so in closing they are two complete opposite women. Cannot be compaired.

 

[JHow]

…Where this double standards comes from I don’t know for sure, but maybe the media?

In all seriousness, you don’t think this could have anything to do with the actual behavior of these societies? As the poster above noted, the inequality of women in these societies?

 

[men0wjv]

How does Islam say that God and man may know each other? Or rather, what is the relationship between God and man in Islam?
The method for becoming Muslim is to say a two fold formula ‘no God’ (negation) ‘but God’ (affirmation). This is a summary of Islam’s World view; that every thing is not God, but everything is a sign of God and so in someways is God. The religion is about firstly removing the veils from one heart of what is not God and working on being able to behold God in everything.
In Islam God is seen as both Transcendent (distant) and Immanent (near), without taking away anything from either. To give a really full account would be quite complex, but hopefully this summary may help.
God’s Essence, that which He is in Himself, is unknowable. Most theology in Islam has focused on this and generally concerns itself with what God is not. We would not say He is Love because we would say that presumes too much, we say He is Loving.
God’s Immanence is via everything; the entire universe is seen as an Act of God, So we are experiencing God directly at every second of every minute of every day. God is One and from His perspective there is just God, but from our perspective we experience Him and it is infinite. It is these different experiences that we define and call His Attributes, such as Mercy or Wrath. Islamic mysticism - Tasawwuf - focuses on this, and concerns with what God is.
God exists and is All Being (His essence) and so is the only one that truly exists, we exist but only contingently through God. The universe is not God in its outward form, but its inward meaning is command and so is God, so in that way we could say the table is not God, but inwardly its meaning points towards God; a single disclosure of God. The whole universe is a complete revelation because it manifests all of God’s attributes.
God can also be known through the revelation of the Qur’an, which is His Divine Speech.
Mankind is the single most complete example of God’s attributes - we are made in his image. So we can see a unique disclosure of the Divine in ourselves and others. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is seen as the perfection of mankind and the greatest single self disclosure of God where he exhibits all the Attributes of God in perfect harmony.
So Islam offers an Absolute God that is in no way manlike, but a direct relationship without any intermediaries through every single thing in existence.
Much could be said, but I hope this at least gives a broad outline

 

[jakasaki]

God can also be known through the revelation of the Qur’an, which is His Divine Speech.

How can this be…?? It is claimed that an angel spoke to mohamad and not allah.

 

[woodland_poet]

The method for becoming Muslim is to say a two fold formula ‘no God’ (negation) ‘but God’ (affirmation). This is a summary of Islam’s World view; that every thing is not God, but everything is a sign of God and so in someways is God. The religion is about firstly removing the veils from one heart of what is not God and working on being able to behold God in everything.
In Islam God is seen as both Transcendent (distant) and Immanent (near), without taking away anything from either. To give a really full account would be quite complex, but hopefully this summary may help.
God’s Essence, that which He is in Himself, is unknowable. Most theology in Islam has focused on this and generally concerns itself with what God is not. We would not say He is Love because we would say that presumes too much, we say He is Loving.
God’s Immanence is via everything; the entire universe is seen as an Act of God, So we are experiencing God directly at every second of every minute of every day. God is One and from His perspective there is just God, but from our perspective we experience Him and it is infinite. It is these different experiences that we define and call His Attributes, such as Mercy or Wrath. Islamic mysticism - Tasawwuf - focuses on this, and concerns with what God is.
God exists and is All Being (His essence) and so is the only one that truly exists, we exist but only contingently through God. The universe is not God in its outward form, but its inward meaning is command and so is God, so in that way we could say the table is not God, but inwardly its meaning points towards God; a single disclosure of God. The whole universe is a complete revelation because it manifests all of God’s attributes.
God can also be known through the revelation of the Qur’an, which is His Divine Speech.
Mankind is the single most complete example of God’s attributes - we are made in his image. So we can see a unique disclosure of the Divine in ourselves and others. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is seen as the perfection of mankind and the greatest single self disclosure of God where he exhibits all the Attributes of God in perfect harmony.
So Islam offers an Absolute God that is in no way manlike, but a direct relationship without any intermediaries through every single thing in existence.
Much could be said, but I hope this at least gives a broad outline

Thank you for your answer. I have read the Quran, in translation of course, out of a desire to learn more about Islam. In your explanation, I was reminded of Pslam 19.

The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard; yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat. The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes; the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward. But who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from hidden faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.

 

[men0wjv]

Let’s not compare Nuns to muslim women who wear the hijab…

It is better to be silent and be perceived a fool than to open one’s mouth and leave no doubt. I was going to write you a reply, but you clearly have no desire to do anything constructive so I won’t bother. Write what you want I won’t reply

 

[men0wjv]

…the inequality of women in these societies?

For once rather that make prejudicial comments about Muslim women trying to take the high ground, give them some respect and actually talk to them… why not start with the 80% of converts that are women?

 

[men0wjv]

Thank you for your answer. I have read the Quran, in translation of course, out of a desire to learn more about Islam. In your explanation, I was reminded of Pslam 19…
Beautiful Thank-you for the reply, Deus vobiscum

 

[men0wjv]

Perhaps I should write something about women and Islam. Most discussions on this issue look at the legal side of things and the social equality. Although useful, it doesn’t give any detail as to why, so a more metaphysical discussion may be more helpful. Here are some reflections - obviously the following is speaking from a Muslim perspective:

Our purpose as humans is to be servants of God [51:57] and then to be His vicegerents [2:30], in that order. Firstly we affirm God’s Majesty, Power and Awe affirming His distance and then we are brought into His intimate presence affirming His Beauty, Mercy and Love. These two ‘faces’ of God – His Majestic side and Beatific side – are the archetypal male and female characteristics [53:45]. As His vicegerents on Earth we must – internally – manifest both the masculine and feminine sides to become the perfect human; showing dominance over our desires and ego and passivity and acceptance toward God and His commands. The Prophet (pbuh) is the best example [33:21] and despite his outward male form this perfect inward state is open to all [9:71]. Without this correct balance a human is rebellious; showing dominance to God and passivity toward our ego.

The Islamic society is an outward expression of this inner dimension by being both patriarchal and matriarchal. The public sphere is typically masculine in nature being constrictive by humbling to the austere Shariah. The private sphere is typically feminine in nature being expansive by interacting with the warmth of brother/sisterhood and Divine intimacy. The masculine side is dominant outwardly to keep order and show the door to the feminine dominated inward. An imbalance and role reversal would lead to social upheaval. Men are given a degree over women [2:228] in terms of a responsibility to authority but women have the advantage of acquiescence, which is more becoming to closeness to God. The Prophet (pbuh) said women were made lovable to him [Nasai] because they are a more complete disclosure of God. The feminine side is more fundamental to the Divine nature: ‘My mercy precedes my wrath’.

The modern afflictions of fundamentalism, exploitation of the World etc is due to an exaggeration of masculinity, a return to our spiritual tradition that praises femininity would redress the imbalance.

 

[JHow]

For once rather that make prejudicial comments about Muslim women trying to take the high ground, give them some respect and actually talk to them… why not start with the 80% of converts that are women?

Let me just say a few things: you are very free with criticizing me personally (ignorant, prejudicial, paranoid, lack of faith, etc.) but you can’t tolerate the least criticism back. Why so defensive?

As for muslim women, I don’t know any (are you one?), but I did read Aayan Hirsi Ali’s book “Infidel”. Before you tell me I am stupid for applying one woman’s story against the testimony of millions of happy muslim women around the world, please note I fully recognise the “small sample size”, that is, she is just one person. Notwithstanding, the picture she paints is, frankly, horrible. We can debate how much of that is due to Somali tribalism, how little it relates to classical islam, how atypical her experience is vice all other women, how this is definitely not the way things are done in Oxford, but first things first, violence must be acknowledged.

This is the part that you have failed to get past in my posts - I don’t actually believe all the things you have accused me of, but before I get too far in a discussion with people I don’t know, I want to recognize up front, for example, if we are going to discuss the Regensburg lecture, we might pause a moment at the begining of the discussion to consider the nun who got shot as a result. We can’t excuse murder, no matter which “side” we are on, and we have to be clear about that. You might say “well that should be a given”, but I have had the experience on another board where a frequent muslim poster actually did turn out bad. Not to me personally, but he was a guardsman at Ft. Lewis, WA, tried to defect to Al Queada and pass them secrets. He was arrested, tried, and convicted. It’s a small world. You can read about him here:

msnbc.msn.com/id/4252095/

Finally, you bring up a new fact (I assume it is fact, I have no way to check it) that 80% of converts (to islam) are women? This is really interesting. Is that worldwide? UK? What do you think accounts for that?

 

[Sufjon]

May I interject?
I really can’t believe the attitude of some of the posters on this forum when conversing with Muslim people. The tone of certain remarks is so vicious, so cold–it gives me chills to read. Sure, Catholics do not agree that Islam is the religion to follow, but that does not mean we have liscense to say that there is no distinction between the majority of the Muslim population and violent extremists. To do so is disgusting. There are Christian extremists, too (Westboro Baptist Church, anyone?), and who wants to be profiled as “just another bigoted, racist, ignorant Christian” because of what the rest of the world sees when they look at such a small, hateful faction? I personally will never profess to a religion other than Catholocism, and I do not agree with the teachings of Islam, but that doesn’t mean I can go and assume that every Muslim is against the West. This thread is obviously meant to bridge relations between Catholics and Muslims, not continue to drive a rift between the faiths on this forum. Let’s just use the thread as the OP intended–a basis for asking and answering questions about one another’s faiths, even if we don’t agree with them–without such flagrant attitudes. I’ve never seen anything like this.
Just my two cents.
God bless you all. + Let’s behave properly and lovingly toward our neighbors. (Hmm…I wonder…I seem to recall reading something along those lines…can’t remember where.)

And while I’m here, I do actually have a question for the OP. Probably the first sincere one on this thread. My question is, what is the general view of Pope Benedict XVI in the Muslim community? Is he thought to be doing a pretty good job with interfaith relations?

Dear Friend Silyosha: Nicely said! Thank you so much.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[benidict]

Some Muslims did some research here in the UK where they showed people pictures of nuns in habits and then pictures of Muslim women wearing the headscarf. For the nuns they said things like pious, honorable, good etc For the Muslim women they said things like backward, ignorant, oppressed etc??? Where this double standards comes from I don’t know for sure, but maybe the media?

you are right. what most people do not know, is that many Muslim women CHOOSE to dress this way. out of respect for their husbands. this is something that is lacking among western women today. a sense of modesty and propriety. i like the way one of our interpreters explained it. he said " why should another man be able to see my wife?" that is for me and me only." i would have to say he is correct. i jokingly have said that if i ever did get remarried, it would be to a woman from this part of the world. i wouldnt even require her to convert. their respect for their husbands, and the honor they show them, speaks volumes. Peace

 

[benidict]

Let’s not compare Nuns to muslim women who wear the hijab and all other head coverings a muslim woman might have to wear -

Muslim women marry & have children & in some cases, their husband is allowed to have up to 4 wives.

She is not allowed to travel allone without an escort -

She needs a husbands permission to leave the house for shopping… etc…

A Nun is does not marry, have children nor does she have a husband - she has given her life to God, Church & charity.

A Nun DOES not neet a male escort to leave the convent/monastery to travel or go shopping.

I’m sure there are more things to write so in closing they are two complete opposite women. Cannot be compaired.

you are right. there is no comparison. however for the Man to have more than one wife. some pretty strict rules are enforced. he must be able to provide for them. he must treat them equally in everything. and that means EVERYTHING. whats wrong with traveling with an escort? a woman is safer anywhere when she has one. ive also seen Muslim women go out without escorts, walking alone. i see it every day. im sure in some countries this would not happen, but you really cannot generalize. each country over here, has its own restrictions and freedoms. lets take Turkey for example. Christians and Muslims live side by side, with hardly any problems. its a Muslim country. when talking about the middle east or persia, we have to take a look at individual nations. what may not be allowed in one, may be allowed in another. we really cannot generalize. Peace

 

[TEPO]

Pax vobiscum,

From Nostra Aetate urged both of us to: work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

There has been some good work since 1965, but we still are somewhat estranged. I wish to ask: what is it, that acts as a barrier for mutual understanding and promote benefit for all mankind?

From an inter-faith meeting, I was surprised when a really splendid Catholic said, I was the first Muslim he’d met who hadn’t tried to convert him. This shows a rather arrogant and disrespectful attitude from some of my brethren which is a shame and will do nothing for mutual understanding. Maybe this attitude is more prevalent amongst Muslims?

Firstly we need to put our egos aside for this endeavor to work, so let us make this thread full of respect; asking and listening with aim to find out more rather than pin some agenda on the other group no matter all credible evidence pointing to the contrary.

Dominus vobiscum

How can Catholics working with Muslims benefit mankind?

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

The masses are of cause a different matter. I do not think the outrageous UK media representation of Pope Benedict as being a pedophilic, homophobic, AIDS speading ex-Nazi helps (sorry, but their words). The Regensburg Lecture did not help his PR either, not because of the actual lecture per se (not everyone actually bothers to read these things, I thought it was good) but because the media tried to present it as an Islamophobic agenda. Because of the above, many have a not so good opinion, since that is all they ‘know.’ Generally his predecessor, Pope John Paul II, was viewed in a better light by Muslims.

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was **new **and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

I think what Manuel II Palaiologos was saying if divided what was good from other things found in islam you will found that that good is already found pre-existing in Judaism and Christianity. So if the good pre-exist in Judaism and Christianity, what was new?

Manuel II Palaiologos wasn’t making a false observation or was he? How did muhammed obtained Mecca and Madina? And that is an honest question when you think about it. Was it through prayer and fasting? What happened to the 600 Qurayza Jews? The Battle of Hunain didn’t happened? Ta’if never besieged?

 

[TEPO]

Catholics and Muslims trying to convert each other…? :yawn:

Seems like a waste of energy. :coffeeread:

 

[men0wjv]

How can Catholics working with Muslims benefit mankind?

Hmm why don’t you ask your Pope

Catholics and Muslims trying to convert each other…?
Seems like a waste of energy.

I agree with this 100%. Conversion is not our objective here, but rather mutual understanding.

 

[men0wjv]

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was **new **… How did muhammed obtained Mecca and Madina? And that is an honest question when you think about it. Was it through prayer and fasting? What happened to the 600 Qurayza Jews?

Your comments aren’t really helpful since you seem to have already decided and the way you’ve packaged your comments, suggests you don’t want to know. From my perspective as a Muslim who studied his religion, your assertions just show your ignorance, for example: Muhammad (pbuh) was invited into Madinah to bring peace, Mecca was conquered without a single drop of blood spilt and Banu Qurayza broke a treaty. If you do wish to know something about Islam then try starting with respect and humiity, I know when I talk to Priests about Catholicism I just let them talk.

 

[men0wjv]

Muslim women CHOOSE to dress this way. out of respect for their husbands

Thanks for your comments ‘by their fruits you will recognise them’
Did just want to point out that although there are women who do it just for that reason and it is in someways one of the ‘wisdoms’ behind the practice, the actual religious reason is humility before God. For example:
*‘Modesty is part of faith (iman)’ *[Bukhari, Muslim] and perhaps more explicitly:
'I then asked: “Messenger of God if one of us is alone, (what should he do)?”
He replied: “God is more entitled to your modesty.” (Abu Dawud)
Ma’salama

 

[TEPO]

Lets face it… Once we stop trying to convert each other; we really run out of things to say… —

Sooo… – Are Muslims against abortion?