Interfaith: a new dialogue between Muslims and Catholic

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God says: I was a hidden treasure, so I loved to be known.’ In other words, ‘I created the whole cosmos, and the goal in all of it was to make Myself manifest, sometimes through gentleness and sometimes through severity.’ God is not the sort of King for whom a single herald would be sufficient. Were all the atoms of the universe His heralds, they would fall short and be incapable of making Him known [Rumi]

Love plays an important role in Islam just as in Christianity. Whilst there are many similarities and generally they are very much the same, there is a discernible difference. From our perspective we see Love and Mercy as the Divine Attributes that gave rise to the cosmos. All love is a manifestation of God’s Love, the Love that He has for Himself: ‘God is Beautiful and Loves beauty.’ Whilst Mercy flows in one direction, from God to the cosmos, Love flows in both directions: *‘He loves them and they love Him’ *[5:54]. People cannot have Mercy on God, only on other creatures. Love is what closes the gap between God and His creation. The greater the love, the greater the degree of participation in the Divine image, and thus the greater the degree of human perfection.

I read a book about Aquinas’ metaphysics at the same time I read one by ibn al Arabi. There were so many similarities, but yet there was a discernible difference. For example we both see that there is a hierarchy in creation. Aquinas speaks of a hierarchy of being, in which God is the perfect Being, everything else is a lesser degree of being all the way until it becomes non existent. ibn al Arabi speaks of a hierarchy of relationships, of states. We view God as the only Being, absolute existence, whilst we do exist it is only contingently, not through anything of ourselves, but through God’s existence. The hierarchy is not between God and creation because He is ultimatley transcendent, but His intelligible position of Divinity (this does not exist, its just something that can be known). The position of Divinity is All Powerful, we are powerful, but less so etc.

There are many many more examples, which highlight an outwardly very similar view of the universe, but it is in the details where there is difference. We are certainly closer than many would have it.

I have to run, sorry…
You’re description and understanding of who God is, is so much like many of the mystical writers of the Catholic faith, that had I not know better, I might have thought I was reading St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross or St. Faustina. I would like to get back to a couple points in your posts, but it’ll have to wait a bit. It is a busy time of year and I’m particularly tired. It’s so interesting to find out where our faiths intersect.

Many blessings,
4
 
You’re description and understanding of who God is, is so much like many of the mystical writers of the Catholic faith, that had I not know better, I might have thought I was reading St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross or St. Faustina. I would like to get back to a couple points in your posts, but it’ll have to wait a bit. It is a busy time of year and I’m particularly tired. It’s so interesting to find out where our faiths intersect.

Many blessings,
4
Ditto; I’d like to have written a lot more, but I’m also busy and tired. I once read an excellent book - considered one of the finest to have emerged from Medieval Christendom - entitled ‘The Cloud of Unknowing’ by Anon, and it might as well have been written by a Muslim! To make one quote: “God can be loved but he cannot be thought. He can be grasped by love but never by concepts. So less thinking and more loving.”. As Rumi points out; doctrine (as useful as it is) is a limitation to the unlimited (so that doctrine makes like a created God; it is not actually God), so throw away your knowledge and enter bewilderment! With reason comes a foundation, a means of not diverging from the path, but it is constricting and is of this World and will not lead you to God, whereas faith is open, so loosen one’s doctrine and behold God with faith, basking in Divine Love. God knows best
Look forward to speaking another time, many blessings in your busy time, peace 🙂
 
Ditto; I’d like to have written a lot more, but I’m also busy and tired. I once read an excellent book - considered one of the finest to have emerged from Medieval Christendom - entitled ‘The Cloud of Unknowing’ by Anon, and it might as well have been written by a Muslim! To make one quote: “God can be loved but he cannot be thought. He can be grasped by love but never by concepts. So less thinking and more loving.”. As Rumi points out; doctrine (as useful as it is) is a limitation to the unlimited (so that doctrine makes like a created God; it is not actually God), so throw away your knowledge and enter bewilderment! With reason comes a foundation, a means of not diverging from the path, but it is constricting and is of this World and will not lead you to God, whereas faith is open, so loosen one’s doctrine and behold God with faith, basking in Divine Love. God knows best
Look forward to speaking another time, many blessings in your busy time, peace 🙂
I couldn’t help but check what’s new on CAF which I try to do everyday as much as possible, and so I saw your post about The Cloud of Unknowing which I had read previously and felt so very connected with it. You can access it on the internet since there is no copyright law by going to ccel.org/ccel/anonymous2/cloud.vii.html.

A little meditative book of the same genre you might have come across is Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence, written in two parts, by Jean Baptiste Saint Jure, S.J. and Saint Claude de La Colombiere, S.J. The theme is that whoever practices entire submission to God’s Will acquires the deepest riches of spirituality than one who spends many years in great labor over doctrine and law. As you said so well, “throw away your knowledge and enter bewilderment.” That is a recurring theme in much mystical theology.

Another book I’d recommend is The Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross. It may be on the internet as well. I read this book when I felt I was in spiritual darkness, so it appealed to me. It seems as though God sends the right book to me when I am in need of it.

Many blessings in your busy time as well. 👍
 
Ditto; I’d like to have written a lot more, but I’m also busy and tired. I once read an excellent book - considered one of the finest to have emerged from Medieval Christendom - entitled ‘The Cloud of Unknowing’ by Anon, and it might as well have been written by a Muslim! To make one quote: “God can be loved but he cannot be thought. He can be grasped by love but never by concepts. So less thinking and more loving.”. As Rumi points out; doctrine (as useful as it is) is a limitation to the unlimited (so that doctrine makes like a created God; it is not actually God), so throw away your knowledge and enter bewilderment! With reason comes a foundation, a means of not diverging from the path, but it is constricting and is of this World and will not lead you to God, whereas faith is open, so loosen one’s doctrine and behold God with faith, basking in Divine Love. God knows best
Look forward to speaking another time, many blessings in your busy time, peace 🙂
hello my friend. are you shia, or sunnie? if you are shia, are you planning on celebrating ashera starting the 7th? peace and prayers for you and yours. 🙂
 
Hi Men0…been away from this thread…

See the new thread on Muslim to Catholic…by Arabic Catholic living in Saudi Arabia…
 
Hi Men0…been away from this thread…

See the new thread on Muslim to Catholic…by Arabic Catholic living in Saudi Arabia…
Hi Kathleen,

Nice to see you again, and welcome 🙂

Not really so sure by some of your posts… with this particular thread (which I’ve read) I’m not sure where I’d fit in :confused: Do you want to have a sort of tug o’ war over this person 😛 Given the poster is thinking about converting to Catholicism then it might be best to talk to her about its beauty. Taking the stance of pointing at Islam’s ‘errors’ will not cause endearment and - like with ‘Arabic Catholic’ - will simply show one’s own errors.

Arabic Catholic says that he left Islam primarily because of 9:113 prohibition for praying for disbelievers (btw its for deceased that you are certain died on disbelief). He says that it is not in his nature to not ask forgiveness for all people, when the irony is, is that this same nature is that of Muhammad (pbuh); this was why the verse was revealed! One may say, why would God say such things? Perhaps the more blatantly obvious question, is why do we think we can correct God? Why do we ask for God’s Mercy to those who have deliberately chosen Wrath and so whom - in His Wisdom - have been given Wrath. Is God not the best of Judges?

Anyway, like I said it would just cause an argument and in my religion I’m taught to leave them (btw that’s ego driven angry arguments, not intellectual debates) because they’re futile.

Go in peace 🙂
 
hello my friend. are you shia, or sunnie? if you are shia, are you planning on celebrating ashera starting the 7th? peace and prayers for you and yours. 🙂
Peace my friend, glad to hear from you 👍 You humble me by your good actions 😊
I’m Sunni, but thanks for the kind gesture 👍 I assume your making preparations for Christmas during Advent? So peace and prayers for you and yours 🙂
 
Peace my friend, glad to hear from you 👍 You humble me by your good actions 😊
I’m Sunni, but thanks for the kind gesture 👍 I assume your making preparations for Christmas during Advent? So peace and prayers for you and yours 🙂
good deal. yes i am making preperations for Christmas. thank you. i think what most people need to understand is the complexity in the middle east between faiths. its not like in the west. they may be surprised to learn, it was Muslim security forces that attempted to rescue, Iraqi Catholics when they were held hostage in a cathedral in bahgdad. unfortunately this ended tragically for both. i have several Muslim here both sunni and shiite that i consider friends. they work hard to help end the sectarian violence that is present in their country. i love the arab population here. i like the modesty, and respectable nature of the women in this culture. i like the hospitality shown to strangers. i like the fact that i am in a part of the world, where you can actually feel the history. i like looking at the tigris river, and know, that i am looking on one of the great rivers mentioned in the bible. my hope is that the differing factions can take a good hard look at the situation and see it is better to live in peace with eachother. there is much that can be done here for the economic, and social future of people here. peace 🙂
 
I couldn’t help but check what’s new on CAF which I try to do everyday as much as possible, and so I saw your post about The Cloud of Unknowing which I had read previously and felt so very connected with it. You can access it on the internet since there is no copyright law by going to ccel.org/ccel/anonymous2/cloud.vii.html.
A little meditative book of the same genre you might have come across is Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence, written in two parts, by Jean Baptiste Saint Jure, S.J. and Saint Claude de La Colombiere, S.J. The theme is that whoever practices entire submission to God’s Will acquires the deepest riches of spirituality than one who spends many years in great labor over doctrine and law. As you said so well, “throw away your knowledge and enter bewilderment.” That is a recurring theme in much mystical theology.
Another book I’d recommend is The Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross. It may be on the internet as well. I read this book when I felt I was in spiritual darkness, so it appealed to me. It seems as though God sends the right book to me when I am in need of it.
Many blessings in your busy time as well. 👍
Cheers for the link 👍 Although I do own a copy. Will look up the other recommendations when I get the chance, though that maybe a long time - my real interest is law, know anything about Canon Law?
I read an excellent book called The Twilight of Atheism in which the argument is put forward that Protestantism gave birth to atheism; God having being the centre of everything and the intention behind everything was suddenly separated from things and spirituality was left as dry as the pages of a book, once God was no longer considered important then it was easy to make the next step to atheism. In these wako modern groups spirituality is just a ‘feeling’ - this is tantamount to blasphemy! To be honest, these days with people turning to the far East, in search of spirituality, thinking that more traditionally Western religions have nothing to offer on this, then promote these works.
If you are interested in Islamic Mysticism (known as Ihsan, Tasawwuf or Sufism) then I could offer some works. Maybe Mevlana by Rumi - considered the greatest work in Persian - would be a good start?
Love unites, doctrine divides (that’s its point; to demarcate). However, both are essential to salvation; as Imam Malik said: ‘whoever practices only dialectic theology (well fiqh) will become hard hearted, whoever practices only mysticism will become a heretic and whoever combines the two will have eternal bliss.’
God bless you and yours my friend 👍
 
Thank you for taking time to read that post written by Arabic Catholic…that is the side of Islam we see here…the problematic Muslim Brotherhood derived from Egypt…

I wonder far back how many Christian desert monks were praying through the day…the origins of the Liturgy of the Hours…we pray it as lay in the morning and then again in the evening…

No, I don’t want to argue either…

I have not had the time to properly read the posts on your threads but I do commend you for the right and shared interests in building good bond of faith…
 
Cheers for the link 👍 Although I do own a copy. Will look up the other recommendations when I get the chance, though that maybe a long time - my real interest is law, know anything about Canon Law?
I read an excellent book called The Twilight of Atheism in which the argument is put forward that Protestantism gave birth to atheism; God having being the centre of everything and the intention behind everything was suddenly separated from things and spirituality was left as dry as the pages of a book, once God was no longer considered important then it was easy to make the next step to atheism. In these wako modern groups spirituality is just a ‘feeling’ - this is tantamount to blasphemy! To be honest, these days with people turning to the far East, in search of spirituality, thinking that more traditionally Western religions have nothing to offer on this, then promote these works.
If you are interested in Islamic Mysticism (known as Ihsan, Tasawwuf or Sufism) then I could offer some works. Maybe Mevlana by Rumi - considered the greatest work in Persian - would be a good start?
Love unites, doctrine divides (that’s its point; to demarcate). However, both are essential to salvation; as Imam Malik said: ‘whoever practices only dialectic theology (well fiqh) will become hard hearted, whoever practices only mysticism will become a heretic and whoever combines the two will have eternal bliss.’
God bless you and yours my friend 👍
It seems that the default position is belief in God rather than atheism. Various cultures and societies throughout history have practiced some form of religion, even shamanism and what we would consider irreligious, human sacrifice. I will look into The Twilight of Atheism. It sounds like something I would be interested in reading. Right now I’m reading some science, philosophy and spirituality books. You might be interested in New Proofs For the Existence of God – Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy. It’s a rather difficult read for me not having had a background in the sciences and only lightweight philosophical courses. Yesterday I googled Rumi and read some of his poetry, which had some very lovely images. He is very prolific. There are so many books I’d love to re-read and list for you and others, but it’d be overwhelming. Looks like you have several dozen yourself to recommend :D.

It’s an interesting thesis that Protestantism gave way to atheism. I hadn’t thought of it that way before, and I’m interested in finding out more. It may have led the way to the philosophy of relativism and many other “-isms” that have infected our society. Of course there were always forces fighting against faith from the Garden of Eden on, but it seems that atheism got a foothold as an anti-religion probably at the end of the nineteenth century. Historians here will know much more about that.

You asked if I had a background in Canon Law. I’ll have to answer in the negative, but one of my daughters just graduated recently from Notre Dame Law School. She didn’t take any Canon Law courses she said. Sorry I can’t help, but I’m sure there are plenty of Canon lawyers out there among the posters. Hopefully, you’ll get the info you’re looking for.

As for turning to the East for spirituality, it seems to be a coming-of-age activity for young, college-age students and young people. I went through that period in my life and read some of the coming of age literature (I recall reading Siddharta by Herman Hesse). I was not with the Church at that time but, eventually, came back after much deliberation and desire that could only have been initiated by God Himself. Now I keep striving for holiness as the great saints have done. I have been given so much and am thankful to God.

Thank you for the reading suggestions. I would love to have more time to read. I use a part of my day for prayer, reading, CAF, working, studying. My children are young adults so I have more time than previously but having six children still keeps me busy in different ways. And, of course, they gather at home for the major holidays-holydays like Christmas and Easter. One of my daughters married a young Muslim man from Turkey, so I’m on this thread to learn about the differences between Islam and Christianity.

Peace to you and yours 👍
4Horsemen
 
Why do we ask for God’s Mercy to those who have deliberately chosen Wrath and so whom - in His Wisdom - have been given Wrath. Is God not the best of Judges?

Go in peace 🙂
I don’t mean to interrupt, but, if you don’t mind, I’d like to give the Catholic interpretation of asking for God’s Mercy even for those who have deliberately “chosen Wrath.”

First of all, we can’t be sure of a person’s heart. In other words, many have been against God for almost all of their lives, but when they are in some desperate need or on their deathbeds, they often beg for God’s Mercy and are truly sorry for their sins. As Christians, we pray for unbelievers to turn to God and be open to His Merciful Love. With our prayers, God will give the graces necessary for conversion although the person in question still has the free will to accept or reject God’s Mercy. God gives a person every possible chance, so it cannot be said that God chose damnation for anyone. That’s why we say God is Loving and Merciful.
 
God says: I was a hidden treasure, so I loved to be known.’ In other words, ‘I created the whole cosmos, and the goal in all of it was to make Myself manifest, sometimes through gentleness and sometimes through severity.’ God is not the sort of King for whom a single herald would be sufficient. Were all the atoms of the universe His heralds, they would fall short and be incapable of making Him known [Rumi]
Jesus tells the parable of how “the kingdom of Heaven is like unto a merchant man seeking goodly pearls, who when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.” (Matthew 13:45-46) Yes, God’s intention in creating the whole cosmos, as you said, is to make Himself manifest . . ."
Love plays an important role in Islam just as in Christianity. Whilst there are many similarities and generally they are very much the same, there is a discernible difference. From our perspective we see Love and Mercy as the Divine Attributes that gave rise to the cosmos. All love is a manifestation of God’s Love, the Love that He has for Himself: ‘God is Beautiful and Loves beauty.’ Whilst Mercy flows in one direction, from God to the cosmos, Love flows in both directions: *‘He loves them and they love Him’ *[5:54]. People cannot have Mercy on God, only on other creatures. Love is what closes the gap between God and His creation. The greater the love, the greater the degree of participation in the Divine image, and thus the greater the degree of human perfection.
Actually, I don’t see “a dscernible difference” in the Catholic perspective on God’s Love and Mercy as Divine Attributes that “gave rise to the cosmos.” You emphasized God’s Love and Mercy in this post just as a Catholic would. But we would say that God’s Love and Mercy are personified in Jesus Christ. God gave His Only-Begotten Son that we might attain Heaven. We could not attain Heaven on our own due to sin. There had to be absolute atonement for sin. Only God, Himself, could make such atonement. I agree that “People cannot have Mercy on God, only on other creatures . . .” I also like what you said about Love closing the gap between God and His creation. Your last sentence caps it all. Beautiful! :clapping:
I read a book about Aquinas’ metaphysics at the same time I read one by ibn al Arabi. There were so many similarities, but yet there was a discernible difference. For example we both see that there is a hierarchy in creation. Aquinas speaks of a hierarchy of being, in which God is the perfect Being, everything else is a lesser degree of being all the way until it becomes non existent. ibn al Arabi speaks of a hierarchy of relationships, of states. We view God as the only Being, absolute existence, whilst we do exist it is only contingently, not through anything of ourselves, but through God’s existence. The hierarchy is not between God and creation because He is ultimatley transcendent, but His intelligible position of Divinity (this does not exist, its just something that can be known). The position of Divinity is All Powerful, we are powerful, but less so etc.
From what I know, St. Thomas Aquinas explains contingency of every creature, that only God is not contingent since He is transcendent and uncaused. All of reality is conditional, that is, conditioned on some other conditioned reality. God is the only unconditioned reality. I don’t know what you mean by “but His intelligible position of Divinity (this does not exist, its just something that can be known).” God being all-Powerful is one of His many attributes (omniscient, immutable, etc . . .)
There are many many more examples, which highlight an outwardly very similar view of the universe, but it is in the details where there is difference. We are certainly closer than many would have it.
I have to run, sorry…
To be continued 🙂
4Horsemen
 
Whowza! 4Horsemen, a lot to respond to. Forgive me, alas my time constraints demands your patience.
I did just want to add to what you wrote:
First of all, we can’t be sure of a person’s heart. In other words, many have been against God for almost all of their lives, but when they are in some desperate need or on their deathbeds, they often beg for God’s Mercy and are truly sorry for their sins. As Christians, we pray for unbelievers to turn to God and be open to His Merciful Love. With our prayers, God will give the graces necessary for conversion although the person in question still has the free will to accept or reject God’s Mercy. God gives a person every possible chance, so it cannot be said that God chose damnation for anyone. That’s why we say God is Loving and Merciful.
My comments before were deliberately brief, to simply point out the feebleness of another’s argument, but I will expand a little:
As Muslims, our beliefs on this very much concur with what you’ve said. ‘Judgment is for God alone,’ [6:57]. It is not the character of a Muslim to go pointing the finger: “The believer is not one who slanders, curses or uses vulgarity” (Tirmidhi). God wants us to love Him, but He is not a dictator and will not force us. Some choose God’s Wrath and so that is what they have. As such, people after death enter into God’s Mercy or His Wrath by their choosing. To supplicate for Mercy, one who is destined Wrath is tantamount to questioning God’s decision and clearly not a good thing. Of course we do not decide who goes where, but God alone and so we cannot say for sure. As Muslims we are taught that only Islam saves and so someone who dies in a state of rejecting Islam (with proof like a final recant) is therefore considered in God’s Wrath. If you check above you’ll see this doesn’t mean all non-Muslims go to hell necessarily, btw. That said God said: *‘My Mercy precedes my Wrath’ *(Hadith Qudsi) and ‘My Mercy encompasses all things.’ [7:156] and so even those that reject Him still receive His Mercy, at least in some degree.
The verse mentioned (9:113) is a specific instruction to Muhammad (pbuh) that he should not continue (he did this even though he was told it would be of no benefit) to make supplication for God’s Mercy on his uncle, Abu Talib, since he died in disbelief. Abu Talib, on his death bed, with full knowledge of Islam rejected it in favour of the pagan religion of Abu Muttalib. This is a lesson for us Muslims to do the same in a similar situation. Not in an situation that is not similar, such as a living non-Muslim or one in which there is uncertainty about what state one died in etc. Which is interesting because the original argument mentioned Michael Jackson… and since he payed for a mosque to be built, it is very uncertain what state he died in. Since I have love for my brethren in humanity I can only wish for God’s Mercy on him, and He is the best of Judges.
God knows best
 
*I have some questions:

**Sura 1 The Opening

Verse 7

The way of those on whom you have bestowed your grace

not the way of those who earned your anger,

nor of those who went astray.

**Obviously, grace has been bestowed on Allah’s followers. The question is who are those who earn Allah’s anger and those who have gone astray?

Adi bin Hatim narrates: “I asked Allah’s Messenger about the statement of Allah: ‘Not the way of those who earned your anger’ he replied: They are the Jews” and “those who went astray”, he replied: ‘The Christians, they are the ones who went astray”.

**A Christian, or a Jew must believe in the Quran in order to become acceptable to Allah.
**
This Hadith is quoted by At-Tirmidhi and Abu dawud.

Sura 2.The Cow

Verse 6 (Allah speaking to His Messenger)

Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you

(o Muhammad)warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

Verse 7

Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing,

(i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah’s guidance),

and on their eyes there is a covering.

Theirs will be a great torment.

If Allah is preventing Jews and Christians from accepting his Message, how can they be consigned to the Hell Fire? If free will is denied of Jews and Christians, how can they be judged to be good or bad?
**
As Catholics we are taught to respect and accept that other religions have merit. We are not told that people who believe in Allah or Yahwe will go to hell!
**
If we are to have “Interfaith” discussions with others how can Muslims be a part when the Qur’an says that we are condemned because we have “gone astray”?

According to the Qur’an we have been condemned.

We do not have a right to choose our Faith - either we are Muslim or…
 
I have some questions…
Hi Cinette,
I trust that you are in the best of health and faith 🙂

Interfaith, as I understand it, is about understanding where there is similarity and thus shared truths that we can work together on for mankinds’ benefit. Also, we should identify difference so that we know the limit of where this work ends; here we’ll have to agree to disagree since there should be no concession of one’s beliefs; ‘Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.’ [109:6]. Sometimes we shy away from the latter, but this part is just as important. HH Pope Benedict XVI suggested that “in our attempt to discover points of commonality, perhaps we have shied away from the responsibility to discuss our differences with calmness and clarity. … The higher goal of interreligious dialogue requires a clear exposition of our respective religious tenets.” This
‘higher goal’ is the achievement of truth.

Understanding of difference does not mean acceptance because to accept is to become of that religion and compromise one’s own faith. It is quite clear that - despite many similarities - we diverge and this divergence might be something we find quite repugnant. Each faith must also have an ‘explanation’ for the others existence since there can be only one absolute truth, the alternative - as Cardinal Newman pointed out - would be a logical absurdity.

As a Muslim I have heard verious explanations for Islam, such as saying Muhammad (pbuh): was a renegade Priest, perceived revelations were epileptic episodes, was a false Prophet or even worse a devil! Or Louis Massignon’s rather interesting explanation of Islam not being a ‘revealed’ religion, but actually one brought out from an internal ‘revelation’ left by a Divine indelible mark (a sort of natural religion). All of these are not pleasing to my ear, I may even see some as stupid or insulting, but I must admit that there does need to be an explanation for logic to prevail. This does not mean that we cannot work together, however, but it does express the limits of this work.

We see religion as one; the same belief system although there may have been different instructions in terms of worship throughout time. As such we see relgions as the narrative of God’s guidance to mankind. The parts that conform with Islam are seen as truth that has been preserved and the parts which disagree are considered corruptions, additions or subtractions made by man’s hand.

Islam has an explanation for Christianity too. Unlike Christianity it is mentioned in our Holy Book because it came after the advent of Christianity and it is seen as wholistic, with guidance for all things. It is our view that St Paul fought the disciples and killed them, in vengence for realising that he’d be damned for killing the righteous he decided to spread falsehood with truth; mixing ideas popular at the time with true Christian teaching and spreading them among the gentiles and Hellenised Jews. I wont go into details or perceived evidences for why we may believe that, since it will be of no benefit and you’d think it absurd anyway. This is ‘hoodwinking’ by St Paul is what [1:7] is refering to; a type of unintended misguidance.

Islam is seen as the middle way, so generally [1:7] is seen as part of a prayer to remain in the middle and not fall into extremes of deliberate or unintentional error. The words are general and do not mean just Christians and Jews, otherwise that would have been said. Rather - as we have it - the Christians are an example of a group who were lead astray and the Jews are an example of a group who rebelled against God and brought His Wrath upon them. It is not a personal attack (Islamic metaphysics and teaching never allows this) but rather a guidance to how things are - well, in at least how Islam sees it.

The Qur’an has a unique style and so it should be noted before embarking on interpretation - as Catholics you know the dangers of Solar Scriptura type interpretations. The Verses of Chapter 2 are a specific, relative to those at the time in Mecca who disbelieved (primarily pagan), and so as a punishment God put a seal on their hearts; "God does not change a people until they change what is in themselves" [13:11]. This is not a general verse and cannot really be applied to Christians and Jews. The verse remains because one may well come across others who are so hateful toward Islam upon hearing it that they too become deaf, blind and dumb. I’m sure you have something similar otherwise why did not all of Jerusalem become Christian upon the advent of Christ?

I would have like to have written a little more, but I’m constricted by time. I hope the above was useful. I tried to be honest of how the Muslims understand things. I didn’t sugar coat anything; its pretty much direct from my teachers.
Go in peace 🙂
 
Yes, God’s intention in creating the whole cosmos, as you said, is to make Himself manifest . . ."
👍
Actually, I don’t see “a dscernible difference” in the Catholic perspective on God’s Love and Mercy … But we would say that God’s Love and Mercy are personified in Jesus Christ. God gave His Only-Begotten Son that we might attain Heaven. We could not attain Heaven on our own due to sin. There had to be absolute atonement for sin… I also like what you said about Love closing the gap between God and His creation. Your last sentence caps it all. Beautiful! :clapping:
👍 We generally have it the same 🙂 our main difference is the person of Christ. We would agree that we cannot attain Heaven by ourselves, we would just say that it is only through God’s Grace.
From what I know, St. Thomas Aquinas explains contingency of every creature, that only God is not contingent since He is transcendent and uncaused.
I love this subject, I may do a PhD in it some day, but its complex and its been a year since I read anything. We agree in contingency, but how we define this different. In the Thomist model, God is the first cause and we are secondary causes. In an Islamic model there are no second causes (in reality), God is the only agent. What I remember thinking at the time was that the Thomist model sees the universe as a sort of robot in God’s control whereas the Islamic model sees the universe as a puppet. From this we can see that Islam strips all created entities of any causal efficacy and every mode of activity in the world is the direct and constant intervention of God - this is His transcendence as we have it. Second causes are a Name of God because they direct back to Him, should one focus on the second cause only then one is veiled from Him. If your familiar with Philosophy then it is is somewhat similar to occasionalism.
Creation as we have it is what is inbetween absolute Being, i.e. God and absolute nothingness. With these two extremes we can now bring about a continuum of relationships between God and nothing. God’s attributes are existent and other than that are non-existent, i.e. not from Him. God has a multiplicity of Name and so a multiplicity of relationships with the universe. Everything in the universe manifests the effects and propoerties of the Divine Names, even conflict and war. Some names are harmonious, but God is both Merciful and Wrathful and these are disharmonious, as other names, and so we can think of a Divine conflict. These are necessary since to discern what is Mercy, there must also be Wrath. Perceived conflict in the universe also arises from the continuum of existence to non-existence. God exists and is good, evil is the absence of good and is non existent so the varying shades are a mixture of ‘light and shadow,’ if you like.
With the view that the universe is a direct act of God, the question does arise where does our free will come into it? I don’t think I can top ibn al Arabi’s words: One divine name calls to someone who is governed by the property of a second name when it knows that the term of the second name’s propoerty within the person has come to an end. Then this namewhich calls to him takes over. So it continues in this world and the next. Hence everything other than God is called by a divine name to come to an engendered state to which that name seeks to attach it. If the object of the call responds, he is named ‘obidient’ and becomes ‘felicitous’. If he does not respond, he is named ‘disobedient’ and becomes ‘wretched.’
You may object and say: ‘how can a divine name call and the engendered thing refuse to respond, given that it is weak and must accept the divine power?’ We will answer: It does not refuse to respond in respect of itself and its own reality, since it is constantly overpowered. But since it is under the overpowering sway of a divine name, that name does not let it respond to the name which calls to it. Hence there is conflict among the divine names. However, the names are equals, so the ruling property belongs to the actual possessor, which is the name in whose hand the thing is when the second name calls to it. The possessor is stronger through the situation.
You may object: 'Then why is a person taken to task for his refusal? We answer: because he claims the refusal for himself and does not ascribe it to the divine name which controls him.
You may object: ‘the situatio stays the same.’ We answer: that is true, but he is ignorant of that, so he is taken to task for his ignorance, for the ignorance belongs to himself.
You may object: ‘but his ignmorance derives from a divine name that governs him.’ We answer: Ignorance is a quality pertaining to non-existence; it is not ontological. But the divine names only bestow existence; they do not bestow non-existence. So the ignorance belongs to the very self of him who is called.

Good stuff 👍
I hope that makes sense? Someone one posted before saying that Orthodox Islam denies reason, this is false. In terms of Worldly affairs then reason is very useful, and we’ve been foremost in this. In terms of beyond the World, i.e. God, it has to be beheld and experienced and so reason is only applied to explain what was found, not the other way round. Someone also said ‘what has Islam offered that is new?’ I think this is the main contribution; Islamic metaphysics is not Aristotelean in form (though ibn Rushd dabbled in the idea, he is known in the West as Averroes), but something entriely unique.
To be continued 🙂
4Horsemen
Look forward to it 👍
 
good deal. yes i am making preperations for Christmas. thank you … my hope is that the differing factions can take a good hard look at the situation and see it is better to live in peace with eachother. there is much that can be done here for the economic, and social future of people here. peace 🙂
Always good to hear from you 👍 I have a number of Iraqi Shia friends and their families. Two went back to Iraq, one is a doctor and one a civil engineer (actually he is a doctor too - the PhD variety). The civil engineer has been working on projects to bring about better water irrigation and the doctor has been working flat out… and unfortunately he has had to deal with a lot of wounds etc He said that one day he was given two massive bags of body parts and it was his job to identify which limb went with which body etc 😦 The Iraqi people are proud of their heritage and I don’t think these two examples of skilled professionals returning to help their fellow Iraqis is that uncommon. This is great, but there are so many problems that need to be resolved, for example you can’t have love until you have justice. There will be a long ‘running in time,’ but I think that eventually they’ll sort it out… its just how many lives will have to be lost before that happens? 😦
 
My comments before were deliberately brief, to simply point out the feebleness of another’s argument, but I will expand a little:
As Muslims, our beliefs on this very much concur with what you’ve said. ‘Judgment is for God alone,’ [6:57]. It is not the character of a Muslim to go pointing the finger: “The believer is not one who slanders, curses or uses vulgarity” (Tirmidhi). God wants us to love Him, but He is not a dictator and will not force us. Some choose God’s Wrath and so that is what they have. As such, people after death enter into God’s Mercy or His Wrath by their choosing. **To supplicate for Mercy, one who is destined Wrath is tantamount to questioning **God’s decision and clearly not a good thing. Of course we do not decide who goes where, but God alone and so we cannot say for sure. As Muslims we are taught that only Islam saves and so someone who dies in a state of rejecting Islam (with proof like a final recant) is therefore considered in God’s Wrath. If you check above you’ll see this doesn’t mean all non-Muslims go to hell necessarily, btw. That said God said: *‘My Mercy precedes my Wrath’ *(Hadith Qudsi) and ‘My Mercy encompasses all things.’ [7:156] and so even those that reject Him still receive His Mercy, at least in some degree.
The verse mentioned (9:113) is a specific instruction to Muhammad (pbuh) that he should not continue (he did this even though he was told it would be of no benefit) to make supplication for God’s Mercy on his uncle, Abu Talib, since he died in disbelief. Abu Talib, on his death bed, with full knowledge of Islam rejected it in favour of the pagan religion of Abu Muttalib. This is a lesson for us Muslims to do the same in a similar situation. Not in an situation that is not similar, such as a living non-Muslim or one in which there is uncertainty about what state one died in etc. Which is interesting because the original argument mentioned Michael Jackson… and since he payed for a mosque to be built, it is very uncertain what state he died in. Since I have love for my brethren in humanity I can only wish for God’s Mercy on him, and He is the best of Judges.
God knows best
men0wjv,

I, too, have been very busy as of late. I’ve been preparing for the holyday of Christmas. We, Christians, view Christmas as a holyday, but also a holiday as it has been proclaimed by our government since our founding fathers were imbued with Christian ideals and most were Christians themselves. Christmas has also become a secular holiday, which is not good in some ways, but good in other ways. For example St. Nicholas is known by different names in different countries, but Santa Claus in the U.S., and, of course, the children love him because he brings gifts. However, the children should be taught about generosity and thankfulness to God, so they don’t become self-centered selfish human beings. That’s true for all faiths.

Well, it looks like I got off on a tangent, but it’s just that time of year. I noticed that you use the words Mercy and Wrath in reference to God. Although the word “wrath” is Scriptural, Christians refer to God’s Justice. The word “Justice” enlarges our understanding of God as a fair judge. “Wrath” invokes the sensation of an angry, vengeful God. As you realize, Allah, as presented in the Qu’ran is significantly different from the God of Christianity. The New Testament revealss God as a loving Father. From a book I’ve read on Islam, I understand that the idea of a loving God is blasphemous to a Muslim. In Islam, Allah is a Master, who demands obedience not a relationship. (Does that sound right?)

“I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you” (Jer 31:3).

It seems we understand that it’s due to a person’s free will whether He chooses God’s Wrath (in the language you presented) or His Mercy. A Catholic would agree with that. However, your sentence in bold I would question since it appears that one has no recourse to forgiveness because he is destined for God’s Wrath. That sounds like the philosophy of fatalism. A Catholic would say that a person can choose to accept God or reject Him to the very last second of his/her life. That’s because of God’s great Mercy. So it’s our own free will that condemns or saves us. You also stated, though, that “people after death enter into God’s Mercy or His Wrath by their choosing.” Sounds contradictory. It’s the idea of “destiny” that is confusing, just as the concept of “predestination” can also be confusing for Christians.

As Christians, we are taught that only Jesus saves. However, even those who are non-Christians can be saved through God’s Mercy but because of the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ. If I understand you correctly, you are saying much the same thing about Islam that “it doesn’t mean all non-Muslims go to hell, necessarily.”

I didn’t know about the story that it was Michael Jackson who was being referred to in the original argument! :cool: That was a surprise. Christians, too, hope he died in the peace of God. No one can judge another’s state of soul anytime including at death. It seems we agree on that. 🙂
 
men0wjv

In one of your early posts on this thread you mentioned the “sunnipath” website. I found it very interesting. Do you regard it as authoritative?

While browsing sunnipath I came across this:

Stoning Verses and Abrogation

Do you personally believe that a woman who commits adultery should be stoned?

Then I came across this:

Moral dilemma at work: Helping Immigrants fleeing from the Shariah

Do you personally believe that it should be illegal to leave Islam? What should be the penalty if someone does, in fact, leave Islam?

According to a recent Pew Global survey the majority of Muslims in Muslim countries appear to favour the death penalty for apostates.

*At least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favor making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion. Majorities of Muslims in Jordan and Nigeria also favor these harsh punishments.
*

What is the majority view among practising Muslims in Western countries regarding penalties for adultery and apostasy?
 
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