Interfaith: a new dialogue between Muslims and Catholic

[men0wjv]

Thank you for your first paragraph…

Thanks for your post

If you think of me as bad simply because I am a Jew then you will be making dialogue particularly painful, at least for the Jew.

‘Yet, they are not all alike’ [3:113]. The most important interpretation of the Qur’an comes from the Muslims, whether its right or wrong is immaterial, because they are the ones that enact its teachings. Muslims do not think that all Jews are bad at all! Many verses and hadith testify to this (as I’ve stated). The mistake you have made is that a general statement affirming X does not mean all are X or even that some are Y, for example if I said: ‘apples are red,’ this is a true statement even though some are not red because affirming that apples are red does not negate that there may be green or golden etc ones.

I would like to know why it is that the Quran is so frequently referring to others as destined for the Hell-Fire and therefore evil, simply because they are in some way different.

Is it not from Mercy to point out the path to the fire? I rather like the fact that it is complete; it is necessary for there to be both light and dark since light could not be distinguished. Also I have to say that I feel many on CAF have rose tinted glasses, almost as if they don’t really know all their religion. You have hell and purgatory, so it can’t all be loving and forgiveness can it? No Catholic thologian has ever claimed that… because its an illogical absurdity, and also constricting of the infinite; surely He can be both of Majesty and Beauty rather than just Beauty.
It is difficult to understand if we take one verse and compare with another, so I could point to the verse in the Qur’an, which says ‘He loves them and they love Him’ [5:54], and compare with the Bible, which says “Thou hatest all the workers of iniquity,” (Psalm 5:7) and then try and argue that Islam’s God is a religion of Love and peace and the Christian’s is one of hate. This clearly is not fair, is it? Muslims do not understand God as love in His Essence because His essence is transcendent, but rather we say it is an attribute; He is Loving, Al Wadud.

I must say that I was somewhat shocked with what you said about St. Paul.

Like I said, you would be It is not only Muslims that have said this, however. There is no question that he was wise; afterall he was student of the most esteemed Rabbi of the time. I don’t really want to go into this, but there are lots of questions. He was an enemy of the Christians and then claimed to be an apostle in a ‘fantastic’ story; it is possible to this this a little far fetched? Why do all other apostles disappear from history? The Acts of the Apostles is just of Paul, the others are but names. There are stories of the other apostles, but they are apocryphal. Why was there a tension between Jerusalem and Rome really early on? These are questions just from Christian theologians! Of course, a Christian can have an interpretation, its just we don’t agree.

To say that 1:7 refers to unintended misguidance is bringing subjectivity into a perfectly clear and concrete statement. Also the quoted Hadith specifically identified Jews as those who incur the wrath of God and Christians as those who have gone astray. Please tell me in what respect Christians have gone astray.

Its not subjective! You say its clear, but 1400 years of Islamic scholarship and tradition (lit. wahat was passed on) disagree with you.
Christians - as we have it - have left their sacred law and transgressed the boundaries by deifing Christ, i.e. astray by what doesn’t concur with Islam.

You say that the verses in Sura 2 are specific to Mecca. I find that strange because I had always understood that the Quran was written in letters of gold in Heaven and passed on to the Messenger Muhammad. What God has in Heaven, in letters of gold, should apply to all people of all times not to some people in Mecca, a small village in the desert.

What happened to people before the birth of Christ? I know what a Priest told me God is infinite, we are temporal and so specific events in time are essential to us are they not? To God, before, now and in the future are one. Muhammad (pbuh) is the ‘walking Qur’an,’ you cannot interpret it without reference to his biography (sirah). Once again this is how Muslims understand the verse by scholarship and tradition. You cannot apply this verse to people unless they mimic the pagan Arabs of 7th century Mekkah, if you do then from an Islamic perspective you are a heretic; ‘whomsoever interprets the Qur’an from their mere opinion is a disbeliever’ [Tirmidhi].

I appreciate you are angry, but I believe you are angry about a perception of Islam rather than Islam itself. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with all of it or accept it, certainly not, but with learning and an objective eye I’m sure you’d see it a reasonable. This only makes sense because if the accusations made were true then Islam would never have caught the imagination of argubly the greatest civilization in history (if you disagree with my opinion, the Bible says that the sons of Ishmael i.e. Arabs, will be a ‘great nation.’)

Go in peace my friend

 

[men0wjv]

I have always been so pleased to be born female - eversince I was a little girl I was so happy not to be a boy. I love to dress up and I have always loved colours and being coquette. It is so female. However, I think the waysome women dress these days is terrible - so immodest, vulgar and outrageous. You can be attractive and coquette and this does not mean you do not respect yourself or your husband! What nonsense! Here Muslim women only started wearing black burkas for the past 10 years. It is so sinister, ugly and unfeminine! I hate it. I look away. We have one extreme from another!!! I like to be pretty and well dressed for myself and my husband.
Cinette

I agree with all of the above There is nothing in Islam to say that women must wear black burkas… NOTHING! It is the Salafi influence. I suppose its a bit like blaming the Pope for JW kids not getting blood transfusions. It is true that we have a plainer public sphere than our private sphere - just look at classical Islamic architecture, such as Alhambra Palace - out of modesty. However, this modesty is for all Muslims and in all public affairs, to limit jealousy or people feeling bad about themselves etc… It would be nice if these Salafi women had heeded the fashion claims that other colours are the new black
Just to prove it categorically: From 'Abdullah Ibn Mas’ud (RA) who said that the Prophet (pbuh) said, “No one will enter Paradise who has an atom’s weight of pride in his heart.” A man said, “What if a person likes clothes and shoes to look good?” He said, “God is beautiful and loves beauty. Pride means denying the truth and looking down on people.” [Muslim]

 

[men0wjv]

I have just as much right to be in a corporate establishment as you do.

An interesting and quite sad story. Welcome Lucy26 I did think your thread might turn into a bit of an argument and it has… I think I should have refrained - there is no accounting for human folly .
Just one thought sprang to mind, if you don’t mind me asking: do you think that you’ll still wear a headscalf when you become Catholic?
Peace

 

[Lucy26]

I chose not to sue actually- CAIR doesn’t just run in trying to sue everybody. In my situation, I got nowhere when I contacted corporate on my own. So I called CAIR. I’m not going to just sit there and take it when I’m mistreated- I’m just not. I don’t know much about where you are from so I don’t know how familiar you are with the history here. On December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus to a white man and that sparked the civil rights movement. She wasn’t actually the first person to refuse- the same thing had happened in 1946 with Irene Morgan and earlier in 1955 with Sarah Louise Keys. They weren’t afraid to rock the boat, and now people of different races can shop where they please, sit where they please, use whatever water fountain they please… I’m sure you get my point.

Saying or implying that you should just deal with being mistreated due to religion because people might not like you speaking up is just wrong. I will not stand by and allow myself or anyone else to be mistreated if there is something I can do to help. My concern was not convincing the man to change his ways. My concern was being treated just like any other customer, regardless of religious preferences. If I didn’t stand up for myself, other people would have been mistreated by this man as well and I will not stand by and allow that to happen. Now he knows there are repercussions for his actions while he is representing a corporate business.

 

[Lucy26]

An interesting and quite sad story. Welcome Lucy26 I did think your thread might turn into a bit of an argument and it has… I think I should have refrained - there is no accounting for human folly .
Just one thought sprang to mind, if you don’t mind me asking: do you think that you’ll still wear a headscalf when you become Catholic?
Peace

Oh it’s okay about my thread! I didn’t mind. I will still wear a headscarf. I wear it more like a Jewish lady might now, I think it’s called a tichel? But I do prefer covering my hair. I feel more put together that way. I like the hijab, but it’s so humid here, and having my neck covered seems to make it worse lol

 

[4Horsemen]

Well I guess Daniel Ali converted because he didn’t understand his religion… at all, not even close! If you want to find out about Islam then ask one who knows and practices it, should a Muslim receive his knowledge of Catholicism from an ex-Catholic or a Priest?

Men0wjv,

Maybe Daniel Ali converted because he found the kind of truth that appeals to reason, logic, the art of beauty, the sense of joy and everlasting happiness and peace. That is what I found in the Catholic faith after leaving it for some time during my college years and somewhat beyond. I think that Mr. Ali, having had the direct experience of having been a Muslim, should know what his former faith was about and how it contrasts with his new faith through Christ Jesus, Our Lord. He was raised in Iraq and as a student of history and philosophy, Daniel began an intense study of his Islamic faith. He was trying to answer the question why his Islamic brothers in Northern Iraq didn’t seem to care about the suffering and genocide of the Kurdish Muslim brothers. He came to realize that God does, in fact, want a real relationship with each one of us.

There is a lot to respond to and to be honest I’m getting a bit lost
In terms of God’s Wrath: ‘God’s Mercy precedes His Wrath,’ this means that Mercy always takes precedence over Wrath within the divine acts. The whole cosmos is nothing but the Breath of the All Merciful. Wrath, then, is an offshoot of mercy; wrath derives from and leads back to mercy. In short, mercy pertains to the very nature of Being itself, so it encompasses it, but wrath is subsidiary attribute of Being assumed in relation to specific existence for precise and determined reasons. Mercy - which is Being and Light - pervades everything that exists. In contrast, Wrath is like the repercussion of nothingness. Or to put it another way Wrath does not exist, it is only the absence of Mercy.

Feel free to respond to what you wish. I just want to learn more about my own faith and contrast and compare it to Islam which is the fastest growing religion in the world, mostly due to population growth, but also new converts. Catholics would say God’s Mercy takes precedence over His Justice. At first you say “wrath derives from and leads back to mercy,” and later that “Wrath does not exist, it is only the absence of Mercy.” Sounds contradictory. Also, as nothing proceed from nothing, the bolded area seems to be nullified. How does wrath come from nothingness? Or is it merely a metaphor, since you said, “Wrath is like . . .”

People have free will - as discussed above (somewhere) - and choose whether they want to be with God, i.e. in His Mercy, or distant from God, i.e. in His Wrath; in the absence of God.
On the Day of Judgment we say we are condemned to hell by His Justice, but saved by His Grace.
As Muslims we believe in fate and free will. The books of theology talk about that God having written everything that happens on a Preserved Tablet which entail ‘descriptions, not command.’ God knows what will happen but does not will it. He creates our acts but we are held accountable for our intention. For example, if I saw a friend of mine accidentally break a vase and then traveled back in time, knowing full well that he’d break the vase - which he then does - am I responsible?

May I ask the whereabouts of this “Preserved Tablet?” The idea of a preserved tablet relates to the tablets on which Moses received the Ten Commandments. As for God creating our acts, that in itself, seems to limit free will regardless of our intentions. And are those only moral acts you are talking about or any act like dropping a vase accidentally? As for your culpability knowing your friend would break it as you travel back in time, perhaps you should have warned him, but I wouldn’t say you are directly responsible. Say you knew he was going to commit murder and you didn’t try to prevent him, then, in that case you may assume some responsibility. Or say he was going to be murdered . . . anyhow, getting into detail on philosophical points is probably outside the limits of this thread.

The religion of Islam is Islam (worship of the body) Iman (worship of the mind) and Ihsan (worship of the soul); Muhammad (pbuh) described them as ‘our religion;’ they are organically connected. If I remove my liver, I may look a bit like me for a bit but ultimately I’ll wither away and die. It is the same with these three elements; remove one and the religion no longer functions. The Loving God which you are surprised to here about coming from a Muslim, is the one preserved in my religion - I am part of the ongoing tradition. Unfortunately (thanks to the Salafis) there is a trend to only focus on Islam (as a science this is Islamic Jurisprudence) and Iman (as a science this is theology), and forgetting Ihsan (as a science this is mysticism; tasting the Divine). The former two are of Justice and Transcendence, so naturally God is distant and sever, something like a majestic father. However, in the latter case ‘God is closer than your carotid artery’ [50:16] and is something like a loving mother. It is sad we have lost this a bit, but just because some are ignorant does not mean the religion of Islam is so.
I hope I got everything

Now the idea of God acting as “majestic father” and “loving mother” is close to Catholic theological thinking. Yet, is should be understood that the ideas of father and mother are inclusive of one another.

 

[men0wjv]

Oh it’s okay about my thread! I didn’t mind. I will still wear a headscarf. I wear it more like a Jewish lady might now, I think it’s called a tichel? But I do prefer covering my hair. I feel more put together that way. I like the hijab, but it’s so humid here, and having my neck covered seems to make it worse lol

Thanks for that I’ve never understood what people have against it personally, but then the modern concept of freedom is very ill defined, sort of like Henry Ford’s: ‘you can have any colour you want, as long as its black,’ type thing.

I noticed on the other thread that a motivation for the change was that you feel there is more love and forgiveness discussed amongst Christians. Did you read my comments of that thread? To be honest, I think that there is a growing trend with the petro-dollar heresy sweeping the innocent. Of course it depends what circles you hang around in. What do you know of traditional Sufism? Just because some are ignorant of it or have apprehensions of it does not mean it has been at the heart of Islamic teaching since Muhammad (pbuh) until today.

You do also realise that in Islam the act of creation was out of love; ‘He loved to be known.’ All love is God’s love he has for Himself: *‘He loves them and they love Him’ *[5:54], so firstly He loves us and then through our submission we love Him. Unlike Mercy, love is two directional and what closes the gap between God and His creation. The greater the love, the greater the degree of participation in the Divine image, and thus the greater the degree of human perfection; which is the meaning of the hadith qudsi:

‘My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him.’ [Bukhari]

On a personal level, my favourite thing about Islam is that you can have a direct beholding of God without any intermediaries at all. Like I said to you, I’d be sad to see you go but if you really think that is what is best then I wish you well on your journey

If you wish to read about a Christian’s experience of God then read The Cloud of Unknowing, it is magnificent and generally considered the greatest work to have come from Medieval Christendom. This does not mean we have volumes of works you could read too (I’d say they were more insightful ), you could start with the greatest work ever written in Persian: The Masnavi by Jalaluddin ar- Rumi (whom you might be interested to know was also a Hanafi Mufti). Either way, “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” [Rumi].

 

[men0wjv]

Maybe Daniel Ali converted … Kurdish Muslim brothers

Sorry I just realised how that sounded It was not meant as a pooh poohing of Catholicism despite how it may have come across, forgive me. However, Daniel Ali knows nothing of Islamic Creed if he thinks it is blasphemy to call God ‘Loving’ because like I said that belief would place you outside the pale of Islam. I’d like to read what else he has to say now, since this book seems quite popular and he may be feeding you his own personal misunderstandings.
You must see that there is no direct link between being an ordinary Muslim and knowing the finer points of Islam; its a bit like saying since he voted he knew the entire county’s constitution and political structure. The question is, what does he ‘know’ about Islam, on the example you have given then nothing. What else does he say?
I have some Kurdish friends and yes the situation in Iraq was and is very sad… since it was an abomination from an Islamic perspective then I can’t see how he started to question it.

Feel free to respond to what you wish. I just want to learn more about my own faith and contrast and compare it to Islam

I wish to know more about my own faith and compare and contrast with Catholicism… which is exactly the objective of this thread so welcome
I would happily respond to everything its just time constraints and - given by some of the confusion I have caused in you - the explaining around the topic of base knowledge.
The creation of hell is a manifestation of Wrath, but is an act of Mercy in that it is put there as a reminder to remain straight. In fact all things that we might experience and call a sign of God’s Wrath are actually acts of Mercy in that they bring us toward the straight path, hence the expression of every cloud has a silver lining etc It is also necessary to have both Mercy and Wrath, so that Mercy is discernible from everything else, Wrath acts as a contrast. We assign God as the source of Mercy because Mercy returns to God whereas Wrath does not. Mercy (Al Rahman) is an Attribute of God and thus has existence it is an attribute of Being, whereas Wrath is not an Attribute of God and so it is of non-existence. A simile can be drawn between light and darkness; light exists because it can be found (lit as a substance in photons etc), but darkness does not because it can’t be found it is simply nothingness, the absence of light. So in the same way Wrath is the absence of Mercy and so really Wrath is just shades of less Mercy. I hope that is clearer.
How does the Catholic Church understand it, because in its theology there is hell and purgatory and Judgment etc?

May I ask the whereabouts of this “Preserved Tablet?” As for God creating our acts, that in itself, seems to limit free will regardless of our intentions.

The where’s and how’s of the Preserved tablet are unknown, other than the figurative ‘with God.’
God created us and all that we do, to not affirm this limits Him. He has perfect knowledge of what we want to do and so has created thusly in accordance with our will. Its a bit like saying the director (a metaphor for God here) made the film of the authors (a metaphor for a human) script, it just so happened that the director knew the author really well and so guessed (metaphor for knew with perfect knowledge) what the script would be before hand and happened (metaphorically) to get it exactly right. So no there is no limit on one’s free will. There is no responsibility on God here for a human’s sins or errors. In our metaphor the director points out that the script is weak in parts (i.e. revelation, sending messengers etc) but the author ignores him; the director does not change the script since he would be limiting the authors creativity (metaphor for free will and that God is not a dictator). I hope that makes more sense.
How does the Catholic Church understand fate, because I thought that in its theology it was an article of faith.

he ideas of father and mother are inclusive of one another.

Of course I read a really good book called the Tao of Islam in which there is a simile made of God as a sort of Divine Ying Yang, in our theology we call them the attributes of Majesty (Jalal) and Beauty (Jamal); the former being the archetypal male characteristic and the latter being the archetypal female characteristic.

Returning to something you wrote on causality. Lets take the situation of someone throwing the spear. Some say (and I’m pretty sure Aquinas and Averroes think this way) that God causes the power in the arm, which then in turn caused the effect of the spear to have motion. The Orthodox Islamic model (like Ghazali and the rest of Ahul Sunnah) says that God causes the power in the arm, and then God causes the spear to have motion - the perceived link between the cause and the effect is habitual; God is rational and thus acts rationally though miracles do occur from His Will.

 

[Cinette]

Thanks for your post

‘Yet, they are not all alike’ [3:113]. The most important interpretation of the Qur’an comes from the Muslims, whether its right or wrong is immaterial, because they are the ones that enact its teachings. Muslims do not think that all Jews are bad at all! Many verses and hadith testify to this (as I’ve stated). The mistake you have made is that a general statement affirming X does not mean all are X or even that some are Y, for example if I said: ‘apples are red,’ this is a true statement even though some are not red because affirming that apples are red does not negate that there may be green or golden etc ones.

s it not from Mercy to point out the path to the fire? I rather like the fact that it is complete; it is necessary for there to be both light and dark since light could not be distinguished. Also I have to say that I feel many on CAF have rose tinted glasses, almost as if they don’t really know all their religion. You have hell and purgatory, so it can’t all be loving and forgiveness can it? No Catholic thologian has ever claimed that… because its an illogical absurdity, and also constricting of the infinite; surely He can be both of Majesty and Beauty rather than just Beauty.
It is difficult to understand if we take one verse and compare with another, so I could point to the verse in the Qur’an, which says ‘He loves them and they love Him’ [5:54], and compare with the Bible, which says “Thou hatest all the workers of iniquity,” (Psalm 5:7) and then try and argue that Islam’s God is a religion of Love and peace and the Christian’s is one of hate. This clearly is not fair, is it? Muslims do not understand God as love in His Essence because His essence is transcendent, but rather we say it is an attribute; He is Loving, Al Wadud.

…

I appreciate you are angry, but I believe you are angry about a perception of Islam rather than Islam itself. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with all of it or accept it, certainly not, but with learning and an objective eye I’m sure you’d see it a reasonable. This only makes sense because if the accusations made were true then Islam would never have caught the imagination of argubly the greatest civilization in history (if you disagree with my opinion, the Bible says that the sons of Ishmael i.e. Arabs, will be a ‘great nation.’)

Go in peace my friend

*Thank you for taking the time to respond. For me, it is a time of year when there is so much to do and I have had the opportunity to do some additional work which is good… I will have to digest and do some research on your comments.

In the meantime I have to say that you are quite different from the other Muslims one encounters - you are articulate and have done some reading etc. However, I need to know what brand of Islam do you follow and what is your central authority?

Blessings
Cinette*

 

[men0wjv]

However, I need to know what brand of Islam do you follow and what is your central authority?

God grant you the blessing to achieve all that you need in your busy time

I think perhaps today, Islam’s greatest criticism might be a lack of a central authority. That said, it does not mean we have no authority. My favourite hadith on the subject is:the scholars are the heirs of the Prophets; and the Prophets did not leave gold or silver as inheritance; but they left knowledge. Therefore whosoever takes knowledge has taken a great portion.”

Perhaps something about authority in Islam should be said. It is quite onerous, but the main three tools might be thought of as:

Tradition: After Muhammad’s death the companions (disciples if you like) travelled to different parts of the world, for example ibn Masud went to Kufa in Iraq. Schools were initiated by these companions. They appointed successors to the head of the school and this continued. A generation after the companions there was a concern that the knowledge of Islam may become lost. As a result the heads of these schools went about codifying the vast corpus of hadith, legal ruilings etc. This has continued to the present day in a preserved tradition (like the Papacy).
The surviving schools of Jurisprudence are the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i and Hanbali. I’m Hanafi
The schools of theology are so close that they are all collectively known by the most prevalent Ashari, which is what I am, though the Maturidi and Athari School exist. I’m Ashari
The schools of mysticism are many, such as the Naqshabandi, Qadri, Mevlevi (of Rumi, the whirling dervishes), Shadhilli etc. I am Shadhilli

Consensus: The Prophet (pbuh) said: “Verily God will not make my Community agree on error” [Tirmidhi]. This brings about a definitive legal proof; if the scholarly community agree on something it is binding (something like a sacred synod). This is also a guiding principle in that the vast majority have the true understanding of Islam; the Prophet (pbuh) said: “God’s hand is over the group and whoever dissents from them departs to Hell,” [Tirmidhi]. The terrorists and their sympathisers are in a small minority.

Reprehensible innovation: The Prophet (pbuh) said: “Beware of matters newly begun, for every matter newly begun is innovation, every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in hell.” [Bukhari]. Things introduced that go against the principles of the religion are rejected, so modern ideas like suicide bombing and political agendas reminiscent of Marxism are rejected as they go against principles of preservation of life, honour and religon.

Anything that conforms to the above is Islam, known as ahul sunnah wal jamat (accounting for some 85% to 90%).

I have to go, my baby’s crying

Peaces

 

[4Horsemen]

Sorry I just realised how that sounded It was not meant as a pooh poohing of Catholicism despite how it may have come across, forgive me.

men0wjv,

No need to worry; I didn’t take offense. In fact, you’ve been most gracious answering the many questions non-Muslims have. I realize that I’m a few posts behind what with all the preparations for Christmas and shopping and all. So all I can do is try to respond as best as I can. Also, I have to look up things sometimes for my own understanding as well.

However, Daniel Ali knows nothing of Islamic Creed if he thinks it is blasphemy to call God ‘Loving’ because like I said that belief would place you outside the pale of Islam.

The quote was taken out of context. I think Mr. Ali meant that many people interpret Islam from the point of view of what they read on the internet and hear certain Muslims speak of violence on YouTube. Sites like that get passed back and forth by e-mail.

I would happily respond to everything its just time constraints and - given by some of the confusion I have caused in you - the explaining around the topic of base knowledge.

I don’t think you are causing confusion at all. The confusion comes from either my own misjudgment or the conflicting things I read and hear.

The creation of hell is a manifestation of Wrath, but is an act of Mercy. . .

Like I said in another post, this part sounds similar to Catholic ideas except for the use of the word “Wrath.” As mentioned, Catholics use the term “Judgment.”

We assign God as the source of Mercy because Mercy returns to God whereas Wrath does not. I hope that is clearer.
How does the Catholic Church understand it, because in its theology there is hell and purgatory and Judgment etc?

Our knowledge of God is limited which is evidenced by the problem with language, our inability to speak of One so above and beyond us. Where does Wrath go, btw?

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts. Neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thought than your thoughts (Is 55:88-9)”

(cont’d on next post!)

 

[4Horsemen]

According to the Catholic catechism, we can only name God through knowing His creatures, according to our limitations to explain Him. Since His human creatures bear a certain resemblance to Him (created in His image and likeness with a soul), their manifold perfections are a reflection of God. “For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator” (Book of Wisdom: 13:5)
42 “God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God – “the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable” - with our human representations. . . we must recall that ‘between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude’; and that ‘concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him.’”
Here is a link to the Cathechism of the Catholic Church on the subjects of Heaven, Purgatory and Hell:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm
That link is a better explanation than I could give you. I just want to say that I agree that God’s judgment is a part of His Mercy, so that those who have fallen away from “the narrow path that leads to life” will return as prodigal sons and daughters. Purgatory is the necessary purgation that must occur in order to prepare us weak humans to see God face to face. Only the perfect can see God. “Be ye perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect, Jesus tells us.”
For Catholics Heaven is not a fanciful place that consists of corporal delights, like 72 virgins (do you have any conflict with that?), which is how many understand the Muslim idea of heaven.

How does the Catholic Church understand fate, because I thought that in its theology it was an article of faith.

Far from it! It is Islam that believes in fate or destiny, Qadar.

Of course I read a really good book called the Tao of Islam in which there is a simile made of God as a sort of Divine Ying Yang, in our theology we call them the attributes of Majesty (Jalal) and Beauty (Jamal); the former being the archetypal male characteristic and the latter being the archetypal female characteristic.

Very nice description. As God’s creatures, we can come to partial knowledge of Him in different ways using differing descriptive language and metaphor.
Returning to something you wrote on causality.
Not being fully-versed in philosophy, I can only give an opinion that may not necessarily correlate with the body of knowledge we call philosophy, and I invite anyone else to join in the conversation, particularly from philosophy threads. First, let me say that I agree with your last sentence. I can’t see that other Catholics wouldn’t agree. As for God being the First Cause or Uncaused Cause, it means He is the Final Cause. St. Thomas distinguishes between the material and formal and efficient cause, but most important is the Final Cause. The end is the cause of the other causes. It is because of their matter and form that explain features of things that are called causes. The efficient cause, the mover, is extrinsic to the moved. The moved acts the ways it does because of what it is. So in your example, God has set into motion, causes that require movement (“power in the arm”) which causes the spear to have motion.
In my humble opinion, nothing can operate outside the will of God, yet God has set laws in motion (laws of physics for example) that are at work whether something is moved or not moved. But the causality of the end, final causality, is what is called teleology, to explain natural events. Take for example, the function of our organs or functions of our senses. It is purposeful whether or not we consider purpose or ends.
I don’t know if I summarized the idea of causality correctly since I’ve only been studying it superficially and need to be corrected myself. I guess it’s best to google it
Many blessings,
4

–

 

[4Horsemen]

We have, something similar:* ‘people are God’s children and those dearest to God are the one‟s who treat His children kindly’* [Tabrizi]. That said we have two sorts of love; a general love that is imbued in all mankind and a specific love that is for those that love God. To be honest, I thought you guys had something similar, otherwise we start entering into the dangerous area of perennialism, which strikes me as an illogical fallacy.

The concept of human love is caritas which is fraternal love, eros which is romantic love and agape which is love of God.

If, for example, we are going to just say that God loves unconditionally - in an understanding at face value - then we enter into all sorts of problems; how do we explain Purgatory or Hell, for example? If we say God’s Essence is Love - ‘God is Love’ (1 John 4:8) - then we have all kinds of problems like the existence of evil - which is where Christianity’s biggest objection comes from academic circles. The Islamic model bypasses this, since we say God is Loving (Al Wadud), it is His Attribute and not His Essence, which is Transcendent. We sort of touched on this, but I think many on CAF are a little hazy on the scope of this, perhaps you could clarify?

The way Catholics explain the existence of Purgatory and Hell (don’t you have something like Hell due to God’s ‘Wrath’?) is that only the perfect can see the face of God. Since God’s essence is pure love, pure goodness (and all His attributes), we, creatures, do not deserve to even be in His presence except through the sacrificial grace of the Mediator, Jesus Christ, His Only-Begotten Son (not in the carnal sense, but through the Spirit).

I’m a keen student of Aquinas and in the Summa Theologica he wrote:
Nothing prevents one and the same thing being loved under one aspect, while it is hated under another. God loves sinners in so far as they are existing natures; for they have existence and have it from Him. In so far as they are sinners, they have not existence at all, but fall short of it; and this in them is not from God. Hence under this aspect, they are hated by Him
This shows a similarity in what I have written. Like I said, it would be nice for you to clarify

Could you please give me a reference where this quote is taken from? St. Thomas is probably answering in Truth that sinners deserve to be hated by God, but have become sons and daughters after the sacrifice of Jesus to remove the original sin committed by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. I’d really have to see the context.

Let me quote Aquinas explaining Averroes.

“Thus Averroes says in commenting on the De anima that the form is not received in the possible intellect in the same way as it is received in prime matter; it is necessary that what is received in the knowing intellect is immaterial, and thus we see that according to the degrees of immateriality in things are there degrees of knowledge.”

“Material things, as Aveerroes says, are not intelligible unless we make them so, for they are intelligible in potency alone, but they are made actually intelligible by the light of the agent intellect, as colors becomes actually visible in the light of the sun.”

 

[men0wjv]

Thanks very much for your response I think we should try and keep to just one post at a time otherwise we’ll drown in bewilderment. There is a lot I’d like to say, but I’ll try and focus on the main concepts, maybe I’ll return to others later.

The quote was taken out of context.

Quite possibly. I’ll by the book, read it and then maybe start a thread on CAF. Some do convert for incoherency in their former faith that actually is only a perception rather than a reality. This is possible for all faiths; this might be like a Catholic converting away because the Pope is absolutely infallible or because they don’t agree with un-Christened babies burning eternally - all of which is grossly wrong! So we’ll see how accurate Daniel Ali really is.

Like I said in another post, this part sounds similar to Catholic ideas except for the use of the word “Wrath.” As mentioned, Catholics use the term “Judgment.”

Sure Is the expression God’s Wrath ever used? Of course we Muslims use the expression justice to denote those that go to hell etc because we all deserve it, its only by His Grace that we are saved. So just to clarify this Wrath I mention is also Just (and actually Mercy like I said before), unlike some unjust human expressions of wrath etc.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts. Neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thought than your thoughts (Is 55:88-9)”

This is a lovely quote I have to say I’m confused that so many on CAF seem to think Muslims are weird for saying God is Transcendent!?! If He weren’t (of course not saying, He is not also Immanent) then there’d be all sorts of problems with human like folly; that He is just a man in the sky (which some extreme Salafis believe) - God protect us all from such erroneous beliefs!

For Catholics Heaven is not a fanciful place that consists of corporal delights, like 72 virgins (do you have any conflict with that?), which is how many understand the Muslim idea of heaven.

We believe that heaven and hell is both a body and spirit experience. 72 virgins brings up many connotations for the Western mind, so just to clarify; it applies for women also, virgin means young i.e. beautiful and chaste i.e. righteous, they are a creation of paradise and not from souls on the Earth, and sex is not a taboo in Islamic (or indeed eastern) understanding its just a natural thing that is a sign that creation is an act of love. Whilst there are both physical pleasures there are spiritual pleasures like peace etc the greatest being in God’s eternal pleasure:
“When those deserving of Paradise would enter Paradise, the Blessed and the Exalted would ask: Do you wish Me to give you anything more? They would say: Hast Thou not brightened our faces? Hast Thou not made us enter Paradise and saved us from Fire? He (the narrator) said: God) would lift the veil, and of things given to them nothing would be dearer to them than the sight of their Lord, the Mighty and the Glorious. He then recited the verse: “For those who do good is the best reward and even more.”[10:26]” (Muslim; Tirmidhi; Nasai, Sunnan al-Kubra; Ibn Maajah)

Far from it! It is Islam that believes in fate or destiny, Qadar

Or is it Qada’ (couldn’t resist, though you may not understand the subtelty). OK so Catholics do not believe in fate. How can all things be from His Will then? Is the future unknown? Sorry could you explain please.

Not being fully-versed in philosophy

Neither am I Like I said its been a while, so maybe we should leave this line of inquiry? That said, I did just want to point out that Averroes (ibn Rushd) is not considered authoritative in terms of theology (his ideas being rejected by consensus) although he is juristicly speaking. We see the laws of physics as a ‘habit’ rather than something as an intrinsic rule of the universes essence. I appreciate that the cause of everything is the First Cause (i.e. God) which is actually the final cause, being God as well. This idea of final causality is not really Islamic, however, like I said before it is generally very similar its just in the details.

I have to say that our conversation has just confirmed the similitude between our faiths, so that we should be the absolute best of friends and ‘compete with each other to do good’ for the betterment of mankind.
Personally I love the Catholic Church. This may seem odd coming from a Muslim who is very content with his religion indeed, but I see the The Church as the most authentic surviving authority on the teachings of Christ. Obviously I do not believe it is exactly the same… perhaps that was the ‘Ebonites,’ but they cease to be. There is much that could be said for the Eastern Orthodox Church too, but then it still uses Catholic formulations to defend and describe things primarily because it does not have the creativity of the West. So let us join forces in love and teach others to love, without compromising a jot

Love your brother in humanity and devotion of the One God, who is Perfect and Beautiful however our own ignorant perceptions may seemingly detract from that

PS: Thanks for the divisions of love, yes there may well be more than two, but ultimately there is only one, The Love He has for Himself. Go in peace

PPS: Was thinking about a fridge magnet; if God seems distant, who moved? God’s Love is unchanging for He is unchanging, it is only our barriers we put up that does not receive it. If we searched within ourselves and removed the veils we would find His Love. We all knew this I guess, but it just came to me like this, so…

 

[SolarWinds63]

I was always taught vulgarity was not of the people of heaven…
I don’t know what planet you’re from, but it isn’t an Islamic one… at all.
Once again a Catholic has made ridiculous claims against Islam concerning women of whuch there is no proof (who on Earth are Maslami women???).
Also you hold that the women are so free in Catholicism, when yet history has no played out so; hence why the femenist movement started! Also in the BIble we find rather derogatory statements related to women, such as:
“Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Timothy 2:11-14)
(See also I Cor. 11:3-12, I Cor. 14:34-36, I Peter 3:1-7, Ephesians 5:22-24, Col. 3:18-19.)
“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.” (Ephesians 5:22-24)
(See also I Cor. 11:3-12, I Cor. 14:34-36, I Timothy 2:8-15, I Peter 3:1-7, Col. 3:18-19.)
Know your own religion. Then study mine in detail. Then and only then come back.
If we really are as you say then I think you need to question why the Pope is your leader, since you’re questioning their decisions to work for greater understanding with Muslims.
Think man, think!
Peace

Mr. You do not have to quote the My Bible to me, I know what it is saying. Unfortunately for you, you do not know how to read or comprehend the words of MY Bible. GOD was talking to Eve not Adam, and what GOD said to Eve was meant for Adam too. GOD did not bring Eve in to the world to be abused by Adam but to be his companion and friend. The head of the wife, means that Adam will care for you and Protect you and his Family not beat them, kill, or cut off limbs. Like masalmi men do to there wives and children. A Pakistani man and his son killed there own daughter and sister here in the USA because she disobeyed her father and was going to marry an American Christian Man. If this joke of a religion muslami is so good i can not find it any where. I hope you learn to understand what MY BIBLE means to be a good person. You will not ever understand because you deny The Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross. If you have the courage and love of the true Christian GOD then go to a RC Priest and ask him how you can become a Christian and Love the Son of GOD and through him, you will goto heaven and be saved. My GOD have mercy on you.

 

[Crusaderpgh]

Can we co-exist with Islam? The short answer is no, not in it present form.
It seems that some people have forgotten that Islam hasnt really moved on past the dark ages. From its treatment of women to its use of violence to further its aims, Islam is not a religion that works and plays wells with others.
There is a small movement in Islam to make it more mainstream{ putting a happy face on it} but more often than not, the leaders of such movements have been either killed or threaten with death.
Islam cannot simply get overs its past. While we had our rough times{ The Crusades, the Inquestion and the like} Christians have pretty much stopped using violence as a mean to spread the word. To Islamics, it is the first club out of the bag.
There are some that seem to think that appeasing Islam will curb it violent moves. Appeasement never stopped any regime that is bent on world control. Ask the British how Appeasement worked with Nazi Germany.
Should there be another Crusade{some people have suggestted this} to rid the world of Islam.No…That would lead to a bloodletting the likes of which has never even been seen or imagined.
We must be watchdogs for our Faith. We must pray that Islam finds it path and stops resorting to killing to achieve it goals.

 

[men0wjv]

Mr. You do not have to quote the My Bible to me, I know what it is saying. Unfortunately for you, you do not know how to read or comprehend the words of MY Bible. GOD was talking to Eve not Adam, and what GOD said to Eve was meant for Adam too. GOD did not bring Eve in to the world to be abused by Adam but to be his companion and friend. The head of the wife, means that Adam will care for you and Protect you and his Family not beat them, kill, or cut off limbs. Like masalmi men do to there wives and children. A Pakistani man and his son killed there own daughter and sister here in the USA because she disobeyed her father and was going to marry an American Christian Man. If this joke of a religion muslami is so good i can not find it any where. I hope you learn to understand what MY BIBLE means to be a good person. You will not ever understand because you deny The Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross. If you have the courage and love of the true Christian GOD then go to a RC Priest and ask him how you can become a Christian and Love the Son of GOD and through him, you will goto heaven and be saved. My GOD have mercy on you.

Peace
I don’t think you understood what I was getting at. You can make outrageous remarks about my religion with a personal and exaggerated interpretation based on a single incident with no background knowledge, but I can’t for yours. Does that seem fair? Aren’t you meant to do unto others?
If you wish to make illogical arguments like: since one X is Y, then all X is Y then you have proven categorically that all RC Priests are pedophiles! Using your argument - and ignoring any teaching from the Church, all the examples when this hasn’t happened to the point of it being negligible, and any common sense - then since one RC Priest has sexually abused young children then all RC Priests sexually abuse young children all the time! If you don’t like this conclusion then you must through away your argument forever; if you don’t then you have categorically proven what you dislike!
I think you have some issues, being honest and not insulting, I think you need to see a counsellor. You have a lot of anger towards people, try going and meeting people, travel and try and love.
Get well soon, go in Peace

 

[men0wjv]

It seems that some people have forgotten that Islam hasnt really moved on past the dark ages. …

:ehh: rather interesting use of dark ages, for a Catholic don’t you think? Thanks for giving us yet another example of uninformed opinion. In case you hadn’t noticed this thread was trying to be an intelligent one based on actually knowing about the subject, using well thought out arguments. If you wish to try again then do so with wisdom otherwise do not bother. Thank-you

 

[4Horsemen]

Thanks very much for your response I think we should try and keep to just one post at a time otherwise we’ll drown in bewilderment. .

men0wjv,

I’ll just quote from the Forward to demonstrate the respect that the authors have for the Muslim religion.

“Though unabashedly Christian, Daniel Ali and Robert Spencer have chosen to treat this world religion and its believers with the respect they are due. First, Muslims are recognized as persons who truly want to please God by submitting to Him, and their commitment and sincerity are respectfully presented. Second, a great wealth of information from Islamic sources–the Koran, Muhammad’s Tradition (the Hadith, and the opinions of Islamic scholars–is presented and discussed extensively, with source citations provided . . . And third, they take the claims of Islam seriously, as is proper for a religion which has changed the lives of hundreds of millions over thirteen centuries and across many cultures.”

I have to say I’m confused that so many on CAF seem to think Muslims are weird for saying God is Transcendent!?!

If you go into the philosophy threads, you’ll find a lot of opinions, but it’s the Christians who believe in God’s Transcendence. Atheists who tend to believe “God” or godness is within the universe, much like pantheism. Or they see themselves as little demi-gods!

We believe that heaven and hell is both a body and spirit experience. 72 virgins brings up many connotations for the Western mind, so just to clarify; it applies for women also . . .

This idea of the 72 virgins is difficult to grasp for the Western mind. Why 72? Why not 172 or 52 or 44 or 10,001? Also, Muslims must believe that the corporal body is in Heaven immediately, but that certainly doesn’t fit the laws of nature which God has placed.
Where do these creatures come from? Are they bodily forms?

Or is it Qada’ (couldn’t resist, though you may not understand the subtelty). OK so Catholics do not believe in fate. How can all things be from His Will then? Is the future unknown? Sorry could you explain please.

Sorry, but I don’t really understand the reference .
This comes up in the Philosophy section all the time. How can we have free will if God knows what we will choose and determines everything? God can know an event will happen or that a person will make a good or bad choice, and He will allow it as it will fit into His will in the finality of creation. As the Bible states in Genesis after creating each new essence, that God said it was good. However, God will make use even of our bad choices for His own purposes to bring creation to its final purpose, or ends, in that those who have chosen goodness will be rewarded, while those who have chosen evil will be punished. Yes, He knew from the start but allowed us to choose our own fate, so to speak.

Like I said its been a while, so maybe we should leave this line of inquiry? This idea of final causality is not really Islamic, however, like I said before it is generally very similar its just in the details.

I have to say that our conversation has just confirmed the similitude between our faiths, so that we should be the absolute best of friends and ‘compete with each other to do good’ for the betterment of mankind.

That sounds like a good idea , but I do have questions that are on my mind, but I don’t want to overwhelm you.

Personally I love the Catholic Church. This may seem odd coming from a Muslim who is very content with his religion indeed, but I see the The Church as the most authentic surviving authority on the teachings of Christ. Obviously I do not believe it is exactly the same… perhaps that was the ‘Ebonites,’ but they cease to be. So let us join forces in love and teach others to love, without compromising a jot

I agree that we should respect and love one another. For the Christian, we imitate Our Lord, Jesus Christ who first loved us. “Greater love no man has than He lay down His life for a friend.” He not only died for friends, but “enemies” (those who hate Him and work at cross-purposes for evil in the world.)

PPS: Was thinking about a fridge magnet; if God seems distant, who moved? God’s Love is unchanging for He is unchanging, it is only our barriers we put up that does not receive it. If we searched within ourselves and removed the veils we would find His Love. We all knew this I guess, but it just came to me like this, so…

Very well expressed I’ll buy one of those magnets.

Now for a few questions, if I may.

1. In line with our conversation on the nature of God, would you say that we worship the same God?
2. If God is All-Loving, why are there such harsh stipulations in the Islamic code for punishments, even for children? Does God want this or just allow it as part of man’s code of behavior or civil law?
3. Why do Muslims believe that Christ will come back at the end of the world to judge it instead of Muhammad?
4. What is the true meaning of jihad?
5. Is it necessary to read the Qur’an in Arabic to receive God’s graces? Also, to make a pilgrimage to Mecca?

Feel free to answer or not answer any question.

I appreciate your time and thoughtfulness.

Many blessings,
4

[/QUOTE]

 

[MaxRosen]

Hi men0wjv

Re your posts 236 and 237

Apologies for the delay in responding. Sometimes my day job gets in the way of my online pontificating.

In what follows I am going to avoid the use of the word apostasy. Instead I shall use the phrase “leave the Muslim religion”.

It appears to me that you and many other Muslims who live in Western countries are embarrassed by the traditional Muslim position that someone who leaves the Muslim religion should be killed. However in many Muslim majority countries the populace, or large segments of it, seem to be in no doubt. This from Pew Global:

The question asked was: Are you in favour of the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion.

Those in favour by country:

Turkey: 5%
Egypt: 84%
Jordan: 86%
Lebanon: 6%
Indonesia: 30%
Pakistan: 76%
Nigeria: 51%

Note the form of the question. I have confirmed with a researcher at Pew Global that they avoided using the word “apostasy” because that word can be interpreted in many ways. They asked simply whether the death penalty should be applied to people leaving the Muslim religion.

You appreciate, men0wjv, that to people in the West democracy includes both freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Freedom of religion includes the right both to change your religion and to evangelise for your religion. That means that a Christian would have the right to evangelise among Muslims – and vice versa of course.

**Any religion that seeks to curb the free practice of competing religions – including the right to change religion and to evangelise – is not compatible with democracy as it is commonly understood in Western countries.
**

For the benefit of readers here is a link to the relevant ahadith in Bukhari.

Dealing with Apostates

Posters can read it for themselves and decide how Islam defines apostasy and what punishment is to be meted out to apostates.