Interfaith: a new dialogue between Muslims and Catholic

[Cinette]

Hello Mustafa! - I have made some notes for you which are here below. You will know to what they refer. I just didn’t have the time to so back and besides, my computer is giving me a hard time. My browser is now Google Chrome and it does not always behave or perhaps it is me who is not familiar with it.

I Consulted 3:113 and saw that “they are not all alike” some recite Verses of Allah and follow the Prophet Muhammad (3:114). Those that do not believe (in Allah and Muhammad as Allah’s Messenger) (3:116) will be the “dwellers of the Fire, and therein they will abide.” The statement in 3:116 says that all who do not believe in Allah and his messenger are destined for the Hell-Fire. There are no two ways about it. Contrast this with Jesus (John 10:16): “I have other sheep that are not of this fold. These I have to lead as well, and they shall listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock since there is one Shepherd.”

The statement ‘apples are red’ must be taken as a generalization and is therefore wrong.
We know that not all apples are red. We may say that “all apples in the bowl are red”. Some statements may be true at times, depending on the context. When Lenin was speaking at a meeting in London, one of the listeners reprimanded Lenin saying: “The English say that we should not was our linen in public” To this, Lenin replied: “The English also say that we can’t make an omelet without baking eggs.” Each of these statements may be true depending on context. But the statements alluded to in the Quran are in no way subjective, they are always true or always false.

You also say that an interpretation of the Quran by a Muslim is always right to a Muslim. I gather that an interpretation of the Quran by a Christian is not material. The problem arises when two Muslims interpret the Quran, one is an Islamist and the other is Islamic. The Islamist interprets a Sura as dictating that all Jews and Christians should be destroyed. Which of the two has the right interpretation? I also fail to understand why a Christian’s interpretation of the Quran is not material. If it is wrong, it is material and if it is right it is also material. We should all strive for the truth.

It is merciful to point to the right path but, this is not to say that because I am a Christian or a Jew I am on the wrong path. My actions will determine whether I am on the right path. For most people and, certainly for Christians, following the example and the preaching of Jesus Christ Is the right path.

Purgatory is a preparation, a purification stage before meeting your maker. Hell is for those who need to be punished. One thinks of Hitler. And no one ever said that sinners should not be punished. I looked up (5:54) and was confused. Allah does not want you to turn back on Islam. Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah…I fail to see how the preceding extract of 5:54 can point to a merciful God with respect to Jews and Christians seeing that Allah will be stern with them.

Psalm 5:7 does not contain your quote namely: “Thou hatest all the workers of iniquity” 5:7 is as follows: “But I through the abundance of your steadfast love/ will enter your house/ I will bow down toward your holy temple in awe of you. I don’t like the word ‘hate’ because I find it demeaning in relation to God, seeing it more as a human characteristic.

As a religious person you should believe in the supernatural, I see you do not. Like you, atheists do not believe in the story of St Paul. That Origen and early Church Fathers accepted St Paul and the early ones had contact with him, has no meaning for you.

Of course, you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. This should not be used as an argument because it is not one. I can also say, because it is my belief, that Muhammad is not a prophet. However, I do not use it as an argument because it is simply my belief and I am not substantiating it. Just because the Quran says that Jesus is not the son of God may be good enough for you but obviously, it is not good enough for a Christian. If you are going to tell me that Jesus is not the Son of God, you must justify this opinion not just say, for example, that it is in the Quran. If a person follows the teachings of Jesus, the person has not gone astray.

I am not angry, I am disappointed. From Socrates through countless philosophers and writers, what matters is how significant the statement is not only for the present but for posterity. Shakespeare writes about people of his time but what he writes is meaningful not only then but today also and for all time. Of course we must see things bearing in mind the people that are involved, for instance the place of women at the time of Jesus or Muhammad, but, what God says about people is valid forever. God does not speak about the people of Mecca as if they were different from the people of Medina. They were the same people although their beliefs may have been a little different.

I would like you to explain to me how closing the minds and hearts of a people can make them responsible for their actions when free will has been withdrawn from them. Rather than just offloading the argument, explain to me how, in the light of the Quran and the sirah, (Surah 2:7) makes sense.
The reasonableness of Islam must be seen in the light of argument, not perceptions, these may exist but are not pertinent to the argument. I would like to be convinced, as many better than I have been, that Islam is a positive religion. Maybe you can do that for me.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[men0wjv]

Certainly nothing the Grand Mufti has said allays my fears about what it would mean to live in an Islamic society.

OK so I have brushed up on my knowledge of the ‘traditional’ (not modern) view on ridda (reneging). Reneging means ‘to fail to carry out a promise or commitment,’ which is a much better translation than apostasy since it distinguishes between the criminal act and the sin and it starts to identify the reason for the punishment.

There are many clear verses that set a priciple in Islam of freedom of religion:
‘There shall be no compulsion in religion’ [2:256]
‘If it had been your Lord’s will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?’ [10:99]
And others, such as: [3:20] [5:92] [42:48] [109:6]. To say then that the reason ('illa) behind capital punishment is simply for someone leaving Islam is false.

Capital punishment is only applicable to those that fall under the blanket term of those that cause mischief in the land (fasad fil ardh), for example:
‘if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people’ [5:32]
There are many verses, where the Quranic usage the term means corrupt conditions, caused by unjust people, that threaten social and political well-being. Among jurists, the term signifies the nullity of a legal act that is not valid in the eyes of the law, such as murder or adultry etc. Jurists have differed over all the situations which qualify as ‘causing mischief’, however, virtually all have included within this ridda (regeging Islam).

The thought that regeging Islam is both a major form of social upheavel that carries a death sentence seems somewhat of an exaggeration in the modern Western mindset. However, it makes reasonable sense once we start to understand what an Islamic State is. A traditional Islamic State has ‘Islam’ as it foundational definition, its constitution if you will. Thus a member of the state has pledged his/her allegiance to Islam; this is also the case for the Ahul Kitab (people of a religion with a revealed book), but not through belief, but paying the jizya (tribute) as a sign of their allegiance (pagans are not allowed to live in an Islamic state since their beliefs are opposed to Islam completely). To reject the religion of Islam is thus rejection of the state and is viewed as a social and political disorder, with potentially dire consequences (hence why it is often seen as something like treason). Those that personally reject Islam do not qualify in this case, it is only those that are bold enough to declare it openly such that a Qadi (judge) would need to be involved (as mentioned previously spying is not permissible).

Modern scholars have tried to emphasise the civil disorder element to try and kurb misunderstandings that arise and given the non-existence of any state that constitutionally is Islam in a true sense anywhere in the World, thus its non-applicability. Even a state that identifies itself as Islamic does not qualify unless it really means the Qur’an, Sunnah, Ijma’, Qiyas etc that constitute the tools of jurisprudence and theology.

I hope the above has clarified things for you Max. Thank-you for motivating myself to learn more . Whilst the modern mindset finds the concept of Truth with a capital T difficult to comprehend and thus may dislike the idea of a confessional state, it should be seen that the Islamic model is at least reasonable. There was an interesting discussion in the apologetics area where we discussed what an ideal Catholic State would look like and came to similar conclusions… since this was the norm across the board in the medieval period.

Go in peace

 

[elwill]

That sounds right. Our last two Popes agree with that. Both Holy Fathers have visited mosques and said a prayer (Christian), but I haven’t heard of any imams visiting cathedrals on their official business. ** Maybe it’s just not publicized? Or is it forbidden?**

it’s not forbidden

in islam we can worship our God in anyplace ,even if it was inside the church
the intension is the most important thing , not the place
as long as intension is for the God , the unseen one , without images or idoles , then it’s acceptable , and allah knows the best

So God is all-Loving, but not quite. The Christian idea of God is that He is undivided, so He is all-Loving for every one of His children. However, those who reject Him will be apart from Him forever. That’s because He is a just Judge.

it’s acceptable idea in islamic beliefs either

When Christ returns, “He will come to judge the living and the dead” according to the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed (named after a General Council of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church). ** I think that Islam agrees Christ will return to judge but I’ll have to look that one up. Maybe somebody else knows about it on this thread.**
Many blessings,
4Horsemen

islam agrees that jesus (pbuh) will return and will kill the antichrist , then he will broke the cross and testify the prophethood of mohammed (pbuh) and will pray with muslims . then he will die as everybody die

judging the living and the dead not concerned in our beliefs

 

[elwill]

I Consulted 3:113 and saw that** “they are not all alike” some recite Verses of Allah and follow the Prophet Muhammad (3:114).**

Those that do not believe (in Allah and Muhammad as Allah’s Messenger) (3:116) will be the “dwellers of the Fire, and therein they will abide.” The statement in 3:116 says that all who do not believe in Allah and his messenger are destined for the Hell-Fire. There are no two ways about it. Contrast this with Jesus (John 10:16): “I have other sheep that are not of this fold. These I have to lead as well, and they shall listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock since there is one Shepherd.”

hi . just need to clarify something before continue in this discussion
let me give you the verses again without interpretations

3:113 Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.

3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

3:116 Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah. They will be companions of the Fire,- dwelling therein (for ever).

are your questions still valid with this translation ?

You also say that an interpretation of the Quran by a Muslim is always right to a Muslim. I gather that an interpretation of the Quran by a Christian is not material. The problem arises when two Muslims interpret the Quran, one is an Islamist and the other is Islamic. The Islamist interprets a Sura as dictating that all Jews and Christians should be destroyed. Which of the two has the right interpretation?

such problems should to be resolved separatly
i mean give us specific example to discuss , for example who said that all christians and jews should be destroyed ?
what is the name of his book ?
what is his status among scholars of islam ?

It is merciful to point to the right path but, this is not to say that because I am a Christian or a Jew I am on the wrong path. My actions will determine whether I am on the right path. For most people and, certainly for Christians, following the example and the preaching of Jesus Christ Is the right path.

both actions and faith determines if you on the right path
actions alone not enough , faith alone not enough , i think that’s in christianity either

may be i misunderstood your point , so clarify it please

Purgatory is a preparation, a purification stage before meeting your maker. Hell is for those who need to be punished. One thinks of Hitler. And no one ever said that sinners should not be punished. I looked up (5:54) and was confused. Allah does not want you to turn back on Islam. Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah…

O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

Here in this Holy Verse Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.

I fail to see how the preceding extract of 5:54 can point to a merciful God with respect to Jews and Christians seeing that Allah will be stern with them.

sorry , i failed to understand your question

Of course, you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. This should not be used as an argument because it is not one. I can also say, because it is my belief, that Muhammad is not a prophet. However, I do not use it as an argument because it is simply my belief and I am not substantiating it. Just because the Quran says that Jesus is not the son of God may be good enough for you but obviously, it is not good enough for a Christian. If you are going to tell me that Jesus is not the Son of God, you must justify this opinion not just say, for example, that it is in the Quran. If a person follows the teachings of Jesus, the person has not gone astray.

i agree with you that , and i think men0wjv agrees either

 

[elwill]

I would like you to explain to me how closing the minds and hearts of a people can make them responsible for their actions when free will has been withdrawn from them. Rather than just offloading the argument, explain to me how, in the light of the Quran and the sirah, (Surah 2:7) makes sense.

2:6 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
2:7 Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

did you ever argued with somone who is biased to specific idea and have no intensions to change it even if it was proofed to him that his idea is wrong by all means
hence you will feel that it dosn’t mattar with him to know the truth , he don’t want to search about the truth , and he will never listen to your words and will never understand what you says !!!

it’s the same , God sealed thier hearts after they made thier choices to reject the faith , it dosn’t mattar then the signs and the miracles and the proofs , they will deny everything

allah have the ability to guide all humankind to worship him , existing of those who reject to worship him dosn’t means that God wanted them to disbelieve ( it was their choices )

 

[men0wjv]

1. In line with our conversation on the nature of God, would you say that we worship the same God?

Yes. We would say that you worship God, but the beliefs that do not conform to Islam are a veil to you.

1. If God is All-Loving, why are there such harsh stipulations in the Islamic code for punishments, even for children? Does God want this or just allow it as part of man’s code of behavior or civil law?

Why has the Church condoned harsh punishments in its history? There are many wisdoms I can think of, such as expiation of sin, stopping vigilantism by satisfying the aggrieved and acting as a deterrent (fear being the greatest motivator). As a teacher I have come to realise that the best way to keep order is to have clear boundaries with severe consequences if crossed; this allows pupils to feel secure and learning can take place. Ultimately it keeps order and justice prevails, and as one Christian theologian once said (which Muslims agree with) you cannot have love without first having justice.

1. Why do Muslims believe that Christ will come back at the end of the world to judge it instead of Muhammad?

We do not believe Jesus (as) will judge. Jesus (as) will return, mainly because we do not believe he is dead, unlike Muhammad (pbuh).

1. What is the true meaning of jihad?

Ja ha da is the Arabic root which literally means struggle. Jihad is the group form and thus it literally means a group struggle. There are many types of jihad, such as:
"The best type of Jihad is speaking a true word in the presence of a tyrant ruler.’’ [Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi]
On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: 'You have arrived with an excellent arrival, you have come from the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad—the striving of a believer against his desires." [Fayd al Qadir]. This is the jihad an-Naffs, or internal struggle against the ego.
There is of course the war element. Interestingly I was reading an excellent book about the Crusades. In it, it describes the root of the Crusader mentality and highlights Augustine of Hippo as the first major Christian theologian to hypothesise the notion of a just war. He cites three main conditions: 1. It must be waged by a legitimate government, 2. It must be for a valid reason, such as self defense, 3. It must be done in the fear of God, i.e. with minimum possible casualties. I could go into the particulars of jihad, but Augustine’s view is very much the same overall principle.

The ‘life in the grave’ is somewhat figurative, so asking where is it, is a bit like asking where is purgatory. It is much the same concept really. I appreciate that you see purgatory as a ‘purifying’ period, but this doesn’t really answer my question of why such a situation would be necessary for - in a very outwardly simplistic view of - a Loving God.

We see God as All Loving because there is no love except His Love. He Loves All and is unchanging, but it is we who change:* “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.”* [Rumi]

I bought that book by Daniel Ali, it should arrive tomorrow, God willing. I’m interested to see what he says, honest mistake or otherwise.

Peace

 

[4Horsemen]

it’s not forbidden

in islam we can worship our God in anyplace ,even if it was inside the church
the intension is the most important thing , not the place
as long as intension is for the God , the unseen one , without images or idoles , then it’s acceptable , and allah knows the best

elwill,

You said “without images . . . , then it’s acceptable.” Therefore, a Muslim would not be praying in a Catholic church with its rich tradition of images, which only represent Jesus, angels, saints, much like photographs show a representation of friends and relatives.

it’s acceptable idea in islamic beliefs either

Although Muslims say God is All-Loving and that He has given us free will, why is it that in many verses, Allah is responsible for the choices of individuals. “In fact, some Ahadith suggest that Allah has actively devised sins for mankind. Says Muhammad: 'Allah has written for the son of Adam his inevitable share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not.”’
Also, “Allah decreed that all humanity will have their share of adultery, whether they like it or not. . . .”

islam agrees that jesus (pbuh) will return and will kill the antichrist , then he will broke the cross and testify the prophethood of mohammed (pbuh) and will pray with muslims . then he will die as everybody die

judging the living and the dead not concerned in our beliefs

I still find it hard to understand why it’s Jesus and not Muhammad who will return and kill the antichrist.

And when does Allah make the judgment of Heaven or Hell for each individual soul? Right after death when the soul is in the grave with the body? Or at the end of time?

 

[4Horsemen]

Yes. We would say that you worship God, but the beliefs that do not conform to Islam are a veil to you.

Just as Catholic beliefs are a veil to you. My point is to consider the beliefs of Catholics and Muslims for their basis in reason. I came across a passage quoted in the book you ordered about Muhammad being a sinner, as well as all offspring of Adam, because “Satan touches it. A child therefore cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child.” So Mary and Jesus are sinless but not Muhammad? For the Christian it makes sense, but how can that make sense to a Muslim?

Why has the Church condoned harsh punishments in its history?

It’s the governments run by basically nominal Christians that have condoned some harsh punishments in the past but nowhere near the harsh punishments of Islamic states.

We do not believe Jesus (as) will judge. Jesus (as) will return, mainly because we do not believe he is dead, unlike Muhammad (pbuh).

This is another idea that is perfectly reasonable to Christians, but how can Muslims believe that Jesus (a minor prophet in Islam) is alive and in Allah’s care (I guess) when poor Muhammed, the Prophet, is dead? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? It seems that the Qur’an has some Biblical elements that are mistranslated.

Ja ha da is the Arabic root which literally means struggle. Jihad is the group form and thus it literally means a group struggle. There are many types of jihad, such as:
"The best type of Jihad is speaking a true word in the presence of a tyrant ruler.’’ [Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi]
On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: 'You have arrived with an excellent arrival, you have come from the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad—the striving of a believer against his desires." [Fayd al Qadir]. This is the jihad an-Naffs, or internal struggle against the ego.
There is of course the war element. Interestingly I was reading an excellent book about the Crusades. In it, it describes the root of the Crusader mentality and highlights Augustine of Hippo as the first major Christian theologian to hypothesise the notion of a just war. He cites three main conditions: 1. It must be waged by a legitimate government, 2. It must be for a valid reason, such as self defense, 3. It must be done in the fear of God, i.e. with minimum possible casualties. I could go into the particulars of jihad, but Augustine’s view is very much the same overall principle.

Thanks for the clear and detailed explanation of jihad. I had read Augustine’s works and, yes, he was the thinker behind the definition of a just war–all very good ones. In the past, tribes or cultures of different people went to war to protect their land or to take somebody else’s.

The ‘life in the grave’ is somewhat figurative, so asking where is it, is a bit like asking where is purgatory. It is much the same concept really. I appreciate that you see purgatory as a ‘purifying’ period, but this doesn’t really answer my question of why such a situation would be necessary for - in a very outwardly simplistic view of - a Loving God.

The idea of purgation is written about by early Christian mystics, and there is a book in the Bible in the Old Testament that says it is good to pray for the dead (Maccabees). Also, from early the early Church, teachers such as Josephus and Flavius, preached on Purgatory:

In it he [Jesus] also went to preach to the spirits in prison, To the souls in sheol (hades, purgatory), the abode of the dead. All the souls who were destined for heaven but could not yet enter because heaven was closed. Josephus, a first century Pharisee and historian, gives us this description of sheol. … it is prepared for a day afore determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust and those that have been disobedient to God … shall be adjudged to … everlasting punishment … while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.@ [Flavius

God in His loving kindness, gave us a chance to redeem ourselves, sinful men (and women) that we are through a purgation period. As I stated before, only the perfect see God. Purgatory is meant for those with only venial sin on their souls, rather than mortal sin.

“Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.”

[Rumi]
[/quote]

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with Rumi. I believe our task is to seek for Love, which is Goodness, which is Wisdom, which is Truth, which is Beauty . . . When we practice love, the barriers will just fall away. If we concentrate on barriers, we will be like a runner in place who never arrives.

I bought that book by Daniel Ali, it should arrive tomorrow, God willing. I’m interested to see what he says, honest mistake or otherwise.

Peace

I pray you read with an open mind and heart and not judge the authors negatively since they are expressing their ideas of God and the differences in religious belief. If you think there is mistaken information, please bring it to the forum. I’d appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Captain_America]

I have no “tolerance” whatever for Muslims.

Pay close attention to them; their actions, history and statements.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Yes. We would say that you worship God, but the beliefs that do not conform to Islam are a veil to you.

**Ja ha da **is the Arabic root which literally means struggle. Jihad is the group form and thus it literally means a group struggle. There are many types of jihad, such as:
"The best type of Jihad is speaking a true word in the presence of a tyrant ruler.’’ [Abu Dawud and At-Tirmidhi]

On his return from a battle, the Prophet said: 'You have arrived with an excellent arrival, you have come from the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad—the striving of a believer against his desires." [Fayd al Qadir]. This is the jihad an-Naffs, or internal struggle against the ego.

What if at one time instead of “Ja ha da” [struggling] it was supposed to be “Yehuda” [Hebrew: praise; thanks] I’m not saying if you read a verse in the koran and switch the word meaning “struggle” for the one meaning “praise” it would be a perfect fit and make sense, but I can see misinterpretation of the word at one time could lead to a divergent theology, one giving praise and thanks to the Lord as in Judaism and Christianity, to one of struggling and fighting for allah in islam.

 

[men0wjv]

…

Hi 4Horesmen, I really don’t have any time, but just a couple of things. Why Jesus (as)? I don’t really know except for God Wills it, maybe it is so that every sincere person will recognise him (i.e. the Jews because he’s Jewish, the Christians because he’s Christ and the Muslims because he is the of the most important Prophets, well actually the higher station of Messengers. I find it offensive to say he was a minor Prophet (I guess as you do to say he was just a Prophet). All souls will taste death. It is our view that Muhammad (pbuh) will have the intercession of the Day of Judgement, which is the highest honour given to any man. Will write soon

 

[men0wjv]

What if at one time instead of “Ja ha da” [struggling] it was supposed to be “Yehuda” [Hebrew: praise; thanks] I’m not saying if you read a verse in the koran and switch the word meaning “struggle” for the one meaning “praise” it would be a perfect fit and make sense, but I can see misinterpretation of the word at one time could lead to a divergent theology, one giving praise and thanks to the Lord as in Judaism and Christianity, to one of struggling and fighting for allah in islam.

Interesting thought, I think a German Professor made a similar point using Syriac. However, since Islam was a state at its inception then the understanding of the Prophet (pbuh) was already authoritative unlike say a persecuted community that had to reside disparately in secret for centuries before official teaching could be established. then it seems really far fetched. Also in the Qur’an it states explicitly that its Arabic

 

[elwill]

elwill,

You said “without images . . . , then it’s acceptable.” Therefore, a Muslim would not be praying in a Catholic church with its rich tradition of images, which only represent Jesus, angels, saints, much like photographs show a representation of friends and relatives.

i’m talking about the intention not the place

Although Muslims say God is All-Loving and that He has given us free will, why is it that in many verses, Allah is responsible for the choices of individuals. “In fact, some Ahadith suggest that Allah has actively devised sins for mankind. Says Muhammad: 'Allah has written for the son of Adam his inevitable share of adultery whether he is aware of it or not.”’
Also, “Allah decreed that all humanity will have their share of adultery, whether they like it or not. . . .”

Allah decided to create man as a free agent, but He knows (and how can He not know!) before creating every man how he is going to use his free will

Allah (Mighty and Exalted bre He) knows before creating anything, that He is going to create it and that it shall be of such and such magnitude, quality or nature, etc. He also specifies the time of its coming into being and its passing away, and the place of its occurrence.
“Naught of disaster befalleth in the earth or in yourselves but it is in a Book before We bring it into being. Lo! That is easy for Allah. That ye grieve not for the sake of that which hath escaped you, nor yet exult because of that which hath been given. Allah loveth not all prideful boasters.” (Al-Hadid: 22-23)

Muslims believe that human beings exercise free will, but that our destiny is also known by Allah (God). Is this a contradiction?

 

[men0wjv]

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with Rumi. I believe our task is to seek for Love, which is Goodness, which is Wisdom, which is Truth, which is Beauty . . . When we practice love, the barriers will just fall away. If we concentrate on barriers, we will be like a runner in place who never arrives.

You missed Rumi’s point; one should not seek love since it is everywhere, there is no point because it blatantly manifest, like trying to find white on a white piece of paper. It is our own egos that get in the way of seeing it. This does not mean we seek to do the right thing or seek truth etc

 

[dzheremi]

Woah, this thread moves fast! In reply to #304:

On a more basic level, JPJ, that wouldn’t work as the triliteral roots would not be the same: J-H-D vs. Y-H-D. There is some possibility of confusion in the readings based on the fact that the harakat (short vowel markers) were introduced in written Arabic sometime after the dictation of the Qur’an (this is what makes Luxenberg’s Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran, referenced by men0wjv, a plausible avenue of inquiry), but it is not so with the base forms of the consonants. “Yaa” and “Jeem” do not really look alike. It’d be more likely that someone might confuse Haa (the voiceless pharyngeal) and Jeem, as they differ only by a dot or the absence of one (this is the case with several Arabic letters).

 

[men0wjv]

I have no “tolerance” whatever for Muslims.

Pay close attention to them; their actions, history and statements.

Then you have implied that you are better than HH Pope Benedict XVI and HH Pope John Paul II… I personally would not be so confident

 

[elwill]

I came across a passage quoted in the book you ordered about Muhammad being a sinner, as well as all offspring of Adam, because “Satan touches it. A child therefore cries loudly at the time of birth because of the touch of Satan, except Mary and her child.” So Mary and Jesus are sinless but not Muhammad? For the Christian it makes sense, but how can that make sense to a Muslim?

in islam , the man become sinner when he commit a sin , so if satan touch the baby and made him cry dosn’t mean that we have a sinner baby because of touch

The Prophet said, “When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 506)

why only mary and her son ?
may be because of prayer of mother of mary accocrding to quran
‘And I seek Refuge with You (Allah) for her and her offspring from Satan, the outcast.’ (3.36)

This is another idea that is perfectly reasonable to Christians, but how can Muslims believe that Jesus (a minor prophet in Islam) is alive and in Allah’s care (I guess) when poor Muhammed, the Prophet, is dead? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? It seems that the Qur’an has some Biblical elements that are mistranslated.

are you measure the greatness of prophets by how long they lived ?
we believe that jesus (pbuh) will die either

 

[men0wjv]

…

Oh yes, there were two more things
We say that Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate, i.e. he could not read and write, but we say he was the most eloquent and by a miracle could speak any language - there are many ahadith where he spoke to non Arabs in their language
The Qur’an was compiled as a bound book (Mushaf) by the 3rd Caliph Uthman (from where did you get 100 years???). It was written down on bones and parchment during the Prophet’s (pbuh) life time of which some still remain. That said, the mushaf does not preserve the Qur’an, but the hearts of the believers (Qur’an means recital). So should one produce a copy of the Qur’an for publication, it would not be officially stamped until 10 hufadth (memorisers) had read through it and unanimously agreed.
Napolean tried an experiement where he changed one word to see what would happen, he was surprised to find that his publication was quickly rejected for the errors within it.

 

[men0wjv]

Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran

Yes thats it. It generally was not greated too well by Muslims, which I think in someways is a shame. Tabari (he produced the earliest commentator on the Qur’an) mentioned that there are many words in the Qur’an that are not from Arabic roots (he may have said 14 or 21 languages, I can’t remember). There is also a verse (when I have 30 seconds I’ll check the reference) that is used as evidence for reciting in prayer to something other than Arabic (this applies only if you know no Arabic at all though). Thus this book is an interesting inquiry, since as you point out the vowling can be read differently (there are 7 recitiations afterall, and thats just the Sahih ones). Of course from a Muslim perspective the Syro-Aramaic version could not be taken above the Arabic, but I see no reason why it could not be used to add meaning? I think many of my brethren over-react

 

[men0wjv]

You also say that an interpretation of the Quran by a Muslim is always right to a Muslim…