Interfaith diablog with Muslims

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I guess it depends on how you define things. If you go with Christians are whoever say they are then Christianity is a very broad topic!
My point is simply that if Muslims wouldn’t want heretics/apostates being defined as Muslims, they can’t force us to do this just so the Qur’an gets let off the hook on its errors about orthodox Christianity.
I take your point about Mary, but that said the verse in question is 5:116, which actually just exonerates the Muslim Jesus from any wrongdoing rather than calling Christians Mariolaters etc its implicit not explicit.
If the Qur’an were really from God, it wouldn’t hint at such an absurd idea–it would correctly represent the other side’s point of view even implicitly.
Hmm still not getting this question? Ok let’s rework it and say how would Christians argue the case for Jesus’ prophethood? Leaving trinity aside one might point to Jesus being the founder of a world religion, possessed many miracles and exemplary character gave birth to outstanding works of mysticism etc. So are these built on sand? Like I said I’m not really sure what you’re trying to get at.
They might argue his prophethood based on the crucifixion and resurrection, fulfilled prophecy, and C.S. Lewis’s trilemma. But I wasn’t intending to discuss why Jesus should be regarded as a prophet; I’m just saying that I wouldn’t use the arguments you suggest Muslims could employ with some potential success. To argue that Islam or Christianity possessing a very significant global following and having been successful in many different times and places is relevant to its correctness means that being pagan must be the right path, since most of the world was such when Judaism was starting out. And great accomplishments were made in Ancient Greece and Egypt (e.g., the works of Homer, the Pyramids).
 
Regarding Muslims respecting the Baha’i faith, while I am sure individually many might, just as with Mormonism, because Muhammad is the seal of the Prophet, all Prophets after him are presumed false. By doctrine, i.e., explicit Islamic law, they are affirmatively understood to be false. In fact, whereas Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and ANY other religion that had a holy book at or before the time of the Prophet, they are recognized as “People of the Book” which means that they fall under the rule of Jihad as stated in Verse 9:29 (convert or submit as second class citizens). Baha’is and Mormons, two religions that have Prophets AFTER Muhmammad, if member of either of those religions come under Islamic governance, their jihad option is from Verse 9:5 (convert of die).

In this regard, the only two things Muslims pray about with regard to non-Muslims is 1) for their conversion given the dawah message or 2) their submission.

SirStephen
 
My point is simply that if Muslims wouldn’t want heretics/apostates being defined as Muslims, they can’t force us to do this just so the Qur’an gets let off the hook on its errors about orthodox Christianity.

If the Qur’an were really from God, it wouldn’t hint at such an absurd idea–it would correctly represent the other side’s point of view even implicitly.
I think maybe you are imposing your interpretation on the Quran. OK this needs explaining in the blog, but to say the Quran is in error on this point doesn’t hold my friend. Why should it detail the subtleties of Western Christendoms theology? Why should it not highlight ‘erroneous’ belief systems wherever they are from? Why can’t it speak of the masses and their misconceptions rather than elite minority? Given that the Quran’s whole censure for the Trinity is one of ‘easily misunderstood’ and ‘causes disagreement’ then why not pose things in theses ways?Like I said, you have made some points that need addressing, but I feel you are a little monotone in your thought patterns.
They might argue his prophethood based on the crucifixion and resurrection, fulfilled prophecy, and C.S. Lewis’s trilemma. But I wasn’t intending to discuss why Jesus should be regarded as a prophet; I’m just saying that I wouldn’t use the arguments you suggest Muslims could employ with some potential success. To argue that Islam or Christianity possessing a very significant global following and having been successful in many different times and places is relevant to its correctness means that being pagan must be the right path, since most of the world was such when Judaism was starting out. And great accomplishments were made in Ancient Greece and Egypt (e.g., the works of Homer, the Pyramids).
Could not the Muslims also fulfils a prophecy? The traditional Jewish position is that Muhammad is a prophet, just not a Hebrew one (ie only to the Arabs).
Also to say paganism is in anyway similar to the Abrahamic faiths doesn’t hold. Why? They aren’t a homogenous group, so the term pagan is very lose and does not represent a coherent body of thought - say unlike say Sunni Islam or Catholic Christianity. And where are they now? Despite periods of excellence (in some areas) they have disappeared and are very narrow in their world view, ie limited to their time.

I have a habit of coming across as condescending - sorry. It’s is due to my ineptitude not my intention. However I do feel you have a little venom in your words towards Muslim belief which strikes me as an unhealthy position to take. Yes there are differences and yes we see them as wrong, but let’s be fair and realise our actual disagreement not a perceived one. At the end of the day it is God that is right not us, so we may have been given grace, but that wasn’t our own doing was it? In that sense are we any better? We should take a position of gratitude and stance of generosity to our friends in the dark.
 
Regarding Muslims respecting the Baha’i faith, while I am sure individually many might, just as with Mormonism, because Muhammad is the seal of the Prophet, all Prophets after him are presumed false. By doctrine, i.e., explicit Islamic law, they are affirmatively understood to be false. In fact, whereas Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and ANY other religion that had a holy book at or before the time of the Prophet, they are recognized as “People of the Book” which means that they fall under the rule of Jihad as stated in Verse 9:29 (convert or submit as second class citizens). Baha’is and Mormons, two religions that have Prophets AFTER Muhmammad, if member of either of those religions come under Islamic governance, their jihad option is from Verse 9:5 (convert of die).

In this regard, the only two things Muslims pray about with regard to non-Muslims is 1) for their conversion given the dawah message or 2) their submission.

SirStephen
Verse 9:5 (convert of die).
:hmmm: How does Judaism laws read on this issue? - If Sharia means, literally the “path” or “way,”and also is the body of Islamic law developed to deal with all aspects of life for a Muslim, then the “convert or die” issue is forced - and labeled as a false conversion.

When Moses transmitted the laws to the Israelites from God, Moses had given the people a choice - but with the idea that they would chose life over death, “This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live” (this deals with, that choosing to follow the laws would bring a way of life - guidance as a nation, or to become a nation - see Deuteronomy 32 "7 Remember the days of old;consider the generations long past.Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.
8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel)

So each nation had a set of laws in which to walk or path to follow - to be established under the laws given to them by God - if God is the God of living and not of the dead, then what seems to be wrong with the ruling of 'convert or die"? The major law (to follow and one that we all - do…) and Jesus said it himself is written, "36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

and the teacher of the law replied back to Jesus and said, “Who then is my neighbor?” - or who is then my brother and am I his keeper? …the answer should be ‘yes’ - and how did God reply back to Cain to start out with, “The LORD asked, “What have you done? Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.” - and what is the law, when given to Noah, 4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.” - It’s the law!

Here’s how the law reads, "In Vayikra, the verse states: "ushmartem et chukotay ve’et mishpatai asher ya’ase otam ha’adam, vechai bahem, ani hashem."3 You shall observe my decrees and my laws that each man shall carry out and by which he shall live, I am God. This verse teaches us that the commandments were not meant to take precedence over human life. If the observance or the performance of a Torah law would create a risk to a human life, then preservation of that life should take precedence over the observance of that Torah law. (Pikuach nefesh)

Pikuach Nefesh -The preservation of human life takes precedence over all the other commandments in Judaism. The Talmud emphasizes this principle by citing the verse from Leviticus [18:5]: “You shall therefore keep my statutes…which if a man do, he shall live by them.” The rabbis add: “That he shall live by them, and not that he shall die by them.” (Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 85b) LINK - on must preserve the life of another human being.
 
“People of the Book” which means that they fall under the rule of Jihad as stated in Verse 9:29 (convert or submit as second class citizens).
Very apposite words MorningSong51 👍

SirStephen Your words suggests you are not to well versed in ISlamic law or indeed world history. Rather than go into the various fatawa or the principles of usul ul fiqh etc then to make you think a little ask yourself why are their Hindu’s (considered of the ahul dhimma) still in India when it was ruled by Muslims for over a millenia, or Copts in Egypt or Jews in Morocco or Turkey or… or … This would be impossible if the law you suggest is true.
There is no Shairah rulling for forced conversions, none! However we have to admit that ‘compelle intrare’ (lead them in i.e. convert by force) is indeed part of our legal tradition as first articulated by St Augustine. Admittedly he meant by taxation or ‘light whipping,’ rather than the rather genocidic tendancy in medieval Europe. WHere are the Jews and Muslims of Spain? Where are the Muslims of Sicily? They’ve been there centuries until Latin Christians conquered them and forced them to convert or out.
I always think this media driven madness toward Shariah Law is dangerous because - as a student of Canon Law - the finger of blame could easily change [back] to us!
The Jizya is just like that put on Muslims in the Crusader state; rather than recognise the state by accepting the religion in a kind of ‘syncretism’ then be free to practice yor own religion and accept the government by the act of tribute. Hey doesn’t that sound like our modern taxing system?
Out of interest, have you ever read anything by Robert Spencer? If you have know that he is friends with the ultra right wing Dutch politician Geert Wilde! And he is no friend of ours!
 
I’ve got a few questions:

If Muslims believe that Jesus “really” taught Islam but the Scriptures got corrputed over a period of 600 years, then how do they know that the Koran didn’t get corrupted in the last 1,400 years?

How can Muslims claim to worship the same God as Christians when ours is a Trinity and theirs isn’t?

What proof of the Koran is there outside the Koran and subjective feelings about Mohammed?

Why do Muslims point to the verses written at Mecca to show how peaceful their religion is, when orthodox Muslims believe that these were superceded by the verses written at Medina, which preach war against unbelievers? Given this, how can it be claimed that terrorists are “not real Muslims?”

If Islamic morality allows for distortion of the truth (“relative truth” vs. absolute truth), how can any of us trust the answers we get for these questions? I’m not asking this to insult Muslims, but because I know a guy (not a Muslim) who believes in relative truth, and I can’t trust a thing he says.
 
I’ve got a few questions:

If Muslims believe that Jesus “really” taught Islam but the Scriptures got corrputed over a period of 600 years, then how do they know that the Koran didn’t get corrupted in the last 1,400 years?

How can Muslims claim to worship the same God as Christians when ours is a Trinity and theirs isn’t?

What proof of the Koran is there outside the Koran and subjective feelings about Mohammed?

Why do Muslims point to the verses written at Mecca to show how peaceful their religion is, when orthodox Muslims believe that these were superceded by the verses written at Medina, which preach war against unbelievers? Given this, how can it be claimed that terrorists are “not real Muslims?”

If Islamic morality allows for distortion of the truth (“relative truth” vs. absolute truth), how can any of us trust the answers we get for these questions? I’m not asking this to insult Muslims, but because I know a guy (not a Muslim) who believes in relative truth, and I can’t trust a thing he says.
Some good contemporary questions here 🙂
One that maybe needs clarification is the last one. What do you mean by Islamic morality allows for relative truth? At first I would say it doesn’t, but I don’t know quite what you mean?
 
I think maybe you are imposing your interpretation on the Quran. OK this needs explaining in the blog, but to say the Quran is in error on this point doesn’t hold my friend. Why should it detail the subtleties of Western Christendoms theology? Why should it not highlight ‘erroneous’ belief systems wherever they are from? Why can’t it speak of the masses and their misconceptions rather than elite minority?
I’m not saying it should “detail the subtleties of Western Christendoms theology”–just getting even a bit close would have been nice. And orthodox Christianity wasn’t purely Western; Muslims came into contact with Copts decades after Muhammad’s death, and although the Catholic Church used to view them as christological heretics, it’s been determined that the Copts are miaphysite rather than monophysite.

Do you have proof for your claim that the “masses” were heretics and the “elite” orthodox? The “masses” were perhaps heretics in Arabia, but I’d also like evidence for this.
Given that the Quran’s whole censure for the Trinity is one of ‘easily misunderstood’ and ‘causes disagreement’ then why not pose things in theses ways?
What do you mean here?
Like I said, you have made some points that need addressing, but I feel you are a little monotone in your thought patterns.
Well, I just want straight answers on how orthodox Christianity can be so thoroughly misunderstood by a book whose supposed divine author should have known better.
Could not the Muslims also fulfils a prophecy?
No. Jesus warned us to avoid such claimants.
The traditional Jewish position is that Muhammad is a prophet, just not a Hebrew one (ie only to the Arabs).
I’ve never heard this before, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true of course. In any case, I’m not Jewish, so this doesn’t really apply to me.
Also to say paganism is in anyway similar to the Abrahamic faiths doesn’t hold. Why? They aren’t a homogenous group, so the term pagan is very lose and does not represent a coherent body of thought - say unlike say Sunni Islam or Catholic Christianity. And where are they now? Despite periods of excellence (in some areas) they have disappeared and are very narrow in their world view, ie limited to their time.
I grant you this. But Christianity and Islam seem to remain as the only two faiths which have had such great success in so many respects. So, it’s a toss-up between the two if restricting oneself to criteria of popularity and worldly achievements as means of discerning truth.
I have a habit of coming across as condescending - sorry. It’s is due to my ineptitude not my intention.
I just find it strange that you’re a Catholic defending Islam. But text-based communication of emotion isn’t easy.
However I do feel you have a little venom in your words towards Muslim belief which strikes me as an unhealthy position to take.
I take the view of “hate the sin, love the sinner”.
Yes there are differences and yes we see them as wrong,
Truth isn’t a matter of opinion; that’s relativism at its finest. Christianity is either objectively true or false, and Islam likewise. Compromise is impossible where two mutually exclusive faiths are before us.
but let’s be fair and realise our actual disagreement not a perceived one.
Where have I ever misrepresented Islamic beliefs?
At the end of the day it is God that is right not us, so we may have been given grace, but that wasn’t our own doing was it? In that sense are we any better? We should take a position of gratitude and stance of generosity to our friends in the dark.
I’m not attacking Muslims; I’m combatting a mixture and distortion of Judeo-Christian ideas. If a student commits plagiarism but makes some revisions here and there to personalize the assignment, their work still doesn’t merit the teacher’s (or anyone else’s) respect.
 
I’ve got a few questions:

If Muslims believe that Jesus “really” taught Islam but the Scriptures got corrputed over a period of 600 years,** then how do they know that the Koran didn’t get corrupted in the last 1,400 years?**
There is a passage/ayah #9 in sura #15 in the koran which states the koran is protected by allah, therefore it will never be corrupted.

Here it is…

We have, Without doubt, sent down the message: and we will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (Qur’ân 15:9)

This is the claim that muslims make that allah has protected the koran since begining of time.
 
The traditional Jewish position is that Muhammad is a prophet, just not a Hebrew one (ie only to the Arabs).
I don’t believe that the bolded statement is true. Can you please back this up for Jewish/Hebrew sources

The Jews during Mohamads time did not consider mohamad to be a prophet of God.

This is why the Jews of Medina kept at it, asking Mohamad for signs and miracles to be performed and he did none.

And of-course, since they kept pestering mohamad, he went to war with them.

There is a ayah in the koran where mohamad claims that he is just a messenger and cannot perform any miracles.

So to this day, Jews still do not consider mohamad a prophet of God
 
I don’t believe that the bolded statement is true. Can you please back this up for Jewish/Hebrew sources
😊 Think I may have embellished a bit. The 12th century Rabbi Al Fayyumi made mention of this in Bustan al-Ukul, but hardly can be representative of ‘normative Judaism.’ Maimonides thought he was a fulfilment of a prophecy paving the way for the Messiah, but not all that sympathetic otherwise. I did read Bahya Ibn Paquda’s “Duties of the Heart” and it was just Ghazali’s Ihya U’lum ud-Din rehashed with quotes from the Torah or Rabbinical tradition rather that the Qur’an and Sunnah and where the author couldn’t find a similar quote he just said a great man (i.e. Muhammad).
Wasn’t intentional, but my memory on this wasnt so great… thanks for the admonition 🙂
 
I’m not saying it should “detail the subtleties of Western Christendoms theology”–just getting even a bit close would have been nice… What do you mean here?
I’m just throwing up some questions to be thought provoking. Since the Quran refers to Christians as monotheists - as the Ashari position holds (ie the overwhelming majority of Muslims) - and since - despite it’s condemnation - is silent over what the Trinity is, does allow for some interesting dialogue. If you like the strongest censure is of heretical Christian groups not Orthodox ones. Generally Muslim theologians haven’t engaged seriously with Trinitarian theology so it could pave the way for some interesting new - in articulation not principle - theology. May I just add that because you feel it’s got it wrong doesn’t mean it actually has since the Quran is only understood through it’s entirety and with the ‘wisdom,’ in a similar way to an excellent signature I saw on this forum: ‘Whoever follows the parts of the Gospel they like and rejects the parts they don’t doesn’t follow the Gospel, but themselves’ [Augustine]. Quranic exegesis is a highly sophisticated science which shouldn’t be taken so lightly.
No. Jesus warned us to avoid such claimants.
You’ve missed my point. If we can use as an argument that the coming of Christ was foretold then so can they.
I grant you this. But Christianity and Islam seem to remain as the only two faiths which have had such great success in so many respects. So, it’s a toss-up between the two if restricting oneself to criteria of popularity and worldly achievements as means of discerning truth.
Maybe not the only two, but it is interesting is it not? You will know them by their actions…
I just find it strange that you’re a Catholic defending Islam. But text-based communication of emotion isn’t easy.
Agreed that text only communication is a problem. I thought I’d take a slightly more Islamically sympathetic stance since we are all aware of the unsympathetic side. Basically I think we’re both guilty of double standards as Hugh Goddard highlighted nicely in his book. If you like trying to redress the imbalance
I take the view of “hate the sin, love the sinner”.
👍
Truth isn’t a matter of opinion; that’s relativism at its finest. Christianity is either objectively true or false, and Islam likewise. Compromise is impossible where two mutually exclusive faiths are before us.
This is true, but may I just add that it’s only God that is absolute; we are relative. Someone who has been brought up among sincere and intelligent people that teach a coherent body of thought that is also spiritually demonstrable is surely going to go with that. We need to be aware of this and say ok I’m convinced this path is right and that is wrong but I cannot know all so I realise I may be incorrect and I trust in God.
I’m not attacking Muslims; I’m combatting a mixture and distortion of Judeo-Christian ideas. If a student commits plagiarism but makes some revisions here and there to personalize the assignment, their work still doesn’t merit the teacher’s (or anyone else’s) respect.
Of course we want fair representation, but so do they. They certainly do need to think carefully about the Islamic view of Christianity and the which sects etc but we need to engage with that intellectually

👍
 
I don’t believe that the bolded statement is true. Can you please back this up for Jewish/Hebrew sources

The Jews during Mohamads time did not consider mohamad to be a prophet of God.

This is why the Jews of Medina kept at it, asking Mohamad for signs and miracles to be performed and he did none.

And of-course, since they kept pestering mohamad, he went to war with them.

There is a ayah in the koran where mohamad claims that he is just a messenger and cannot perform any miracles.

So to this day, Jews still do not consider mohamad a prophet of God
Hi Jakasaki,

Which Jews are you referring to?.. (on a individual bases.)There were Jews who did convert to Islam as there were Arabs that converted to Judaism - although the tension between family members might have been bad because when couples married and had children, each side had to decide on which religion that they would raise the entire family underneath. In a general and unanimous way among the Jewish sects - remembering this by tribes and living in Arab territory at the time, hmmm, now that’s a bit questionable, however, truthfully, and there’s been some arguments, they didn’t regard Mohammed as a prophet because Milachi was considered as the last prophet.

(General information (and so that all can read about this))
Jews arrived in the city in the 2nd century AD in the wake of the Jewish–Roman wars. There were three prominent Jewish tribes that inhabited the city until the 7th century AD: the Banu Qaynuqa, the Banu Qurayza, and Banu Nadir. Ibn Khordadbeh later reported that during the Persian Empire’s domination in Hejaz, the Banu Qurayza served as tax collectors for the shah. (Later - all three tribes refused to accept Islam)
The situation changed after the arrival from Yemen of two Arab tribes named Banu Aus (Banu Aws) and Banu Khazraj. At first, these tribes were clients of the Jews, but later they revolted and became independent.[14] Toward the end of the 5th century,[15] the Jews lost control of the city to Banu Aus and Banu Khazraj. The Jewish Encyclopedia states that they did so “By calling in outside assistance and treacherously massacring at a banquet the principal Jews” Banu Aus and Banu Khazraj finally gained the upper hand at Medina. LINK
Some of the Arab Jewish tribes historically attested include: see link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_tribes_of_Arabia#Arabized_Jews

Our ancestry dates back to Fez, Morocco - and previously from Portugal. My great grandfather handed down a family tradition to his daughter and I had held onto that tradition from childhood.

Blessings
Mary
 
I’ve got a few questions:

If Islamic morality allows for distortion of the truth (“relative truth” vs. absolute truth), how can any of us trust the answers we get for these questions? I’m not asking this to insult Muslims, but because I know a guy (not a Muslim) who believes in relative truth, and I can’t trust a thing he says.
Hi Mathematoons,

Who is the only divine human being, that you personally know of, that has knowledge of the absolute truth about God?John 14:8

*** Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”***

9 “Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”

Philip’s response had shown a lack of faith, but we as God’s creation (and due to our sinful nature (sometimes blindness)) - will always reach for that understanding. In the 2nd book of the Maccabees, a prayer was listed at the beginning, “May he give you all a heart to worship him and to do his will with a generous mind and a willing spirit. May he open your hearts (plural - mind and spirit) to his law and his precepts, and give you peace. May he hear your prayers and be reconciled with you, and not abandon you in time of evil”. Again, we ask God for understanding of his ways - even in the book of Job, the details how “doubt” can enter into one’s own thoughts during times of suffering & being disattached from life. Job doesn’t fail to acknowledge his faith in God even though he didn’t understand the reasons behind everything.

Sirach 17 describes what God has endowed man with; and in chapter 18, which relates to the topic, begins with a question about the vastness of His glory:" Who can measure his majestic power, or exhaust the tale of his mercies? nor penetrate the wonders of the Lord?
“When a man ends he is only beginning, and when he stops he is still bewildered?”

We all are faithful believers but no one has that complete understanding of God - it’s not 100% knowledge and what knowledge we do receive comes by grace. God is the absolute truth and wisdom, and also all-knowing. The prophetess, Judith, said, “O God, my God, now hear this widow too; for you have made the past, and what is happening now, and what will follow. What is, what will be, you have planned; what has been, you designed. Your purposes stood forward.”

All of us are partakers of God’s promise, we are the realization of things that we’re not yet seen, that is, the fulfillment of a promise made through Jesus Christ:
"His goodness and wisdom God chose to reveal Himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of His will (see Eph. 1:9) by which through Christ, the Word made flesh, man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature (see Eph. 2:18; 2 Peter 1:4). Through this revelation, therefore, the invisible God (see Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17) out of the abundance of His love speaks to men as friends (see Ex. 33:11; John 15:14-15) and lives among them (see Bar. 3:38), so that He may invite and take them into fellowship with Himself. This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having in inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them. By this revelation then, the deepest truth about God and the salvation of man shines out for our sake in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation. (2)DEI VERBUM
God is the absolute truth. But can anyone (human) really define the true definition of God? Were the prophets able to define all of His attributes? Even to define His Word can be difficult - and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Only Moses saw the backside of God and in the burning bush, Moses heard his voice. On a off note, miracles are the final touches to faith & belief, without them how could one believe.

Scripture (also) writes these verses, (Moses told the Israelites:) Only beware for yourself and greatly beware for your soul, lest you forget the things that your eyes have beheld. Do not remove this memory from your heart all the days of your life. Teach your children and your children’s children about the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Sinai…

Peace,
Mary
 
Peace of Cake,

PART I

As a matter of fact, I have read some Islamic law. Have you? Your conflating historically transient “compelle intrare” doctrines adopted intermittently in the late Roman early medieval period with black letter Islamic law – where even you concede it was in the form of corporal punishment – is a bit disingenuous. Your statement that “there is no Shariah ruling for forced conversions” is patently erroneous. In fact, forced conversion was not only directly commanded by Allah in both Versed 9:5 and 9:29, but Muhammad explicitly confirmed it in hadith cited by Bukhari and Muslim deemed “sahih”.

• (NOTE: Surah 9 is the most authoritative Chapter in the Qur’an on Jihad. Bukhari is the most authoritative hadith collector and Muslim is the second most authoritative in Islamic law. To identify a hadith as “sahih” is to designate it as authoritative.)

Because the Qur’an is understood to be the basis of Islamic law owing to its status as direct divine revelation – or in Islamic parlance, the “Uncreated Word of Allah” - all the verses of the Qur’an have been doctrinally determined in works called tafsirs. Among the most authoritative tafsirs is titled Tafsir ibn Kathir. Below, you will find Ibn Kathir’s treatment of Qur’an Verse 9:5 (I may send the treatment of 9:29 later) – it starts by citing the verse and then explains what it is meant - fully parsed, line by line. Just to assure you that I am broadly familiar with Islamic law, the treatment will be followed by 1) and outtake from a classic Shafi’te treatment on Islamic law of jihad, 2) followed by the a Hanafi treatment, 3) concluding with a Maliki. That constitutes 3 of the 4 doctrinal schools of Islamic law in Sunni Islam You will note that they all agree with each other – and none of them concur with your observation. One alibi, the Maliki treatment, by the Qadi (Islamic judge) of Cordoba, Ibn Rushd, does not speak to the treatment of non-people of the Book because Andalus was only populated by Muslims and “People of the Book.” Also, Ibn Rushd is better known in the West by the nom de plum he used when writing philosophy – Averroes. Incidentally, all his philosophy manuscripts in Arabic were burned. Hence, what follows represents the gold standard in Islamic law on the topic.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on the Verse of the Sword in the Surah of the Sword
Quran Verse 9:5

The Verse: 9:5. So when the Sacred Months have passed, then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

*** NOTE: the text in parens is the Quranic text. ***
*** The text the follows out of parens is the explanation for that line. ***

Tafsir explanation of the Verse (status is doctrinal)
This is the Ayah of the Sword

Mujahid, Amr bin Shuayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,

(So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

(So when the Sacred Months have passed…), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.’ Allah’s statement next,

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )﴿2:191﴾ Allah said here,

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

(But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.)
This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.’’ Al-Awfi said that Ibn Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara’ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara’ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.’’
 
Part II

<<Shafi’te Islamic Law>>

Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
By Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri
Translation & Commentary by Nuh Ha Mim Keller
Book O: Justice
THE OBJECTIVES OF JIHAD

o9.8 The caliph (o35) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4) – which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself – while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslims or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High,

• “Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden – who do not practice the religion of truth, being those who have been given the Book – until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled” (Koran 9:29),

the time and place for which is before the final descent of Jesus (upon whom be peace). After his final coming, nothing but Islam will be accepted from them, for taking the poll tax is only effective until Jesus’ descent (upon him and our Prophet be peace), which is the divinely revealed law of Muhammad. The coming of Jesus does not entail a separate divinely revealed law, for he will rule by the law of Muhammad. As for the Prophet’s saying (Allah bless him and give him peace),

• “I am the last, there will be no prophet after me,”

this does not contradict the final coming of Jesus (upon whom be peace), since he will not rule according to the Evangel, but as a follower of our Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace)).

o9.9 The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim (O: because they are not a people with a Book, not honored as such, and are not permitted to settle with paying the poll tax (jizya)) (n: though according to the Hanafi school, peoples of all other religions, even idol worshippers, are permitted to live under the protection of the Islamic state if they either become Muslim or agree to pay the poll tax, the sole exception to which are apostates from Islam and idol worshippers who are Arabs, neither of whom has any choice but becoming Muslim (al-Hidaya sharh Bidaya al-mubtadi’ (y21), 6.48 – 49)).

<<< Hanafi >>>

Al-Hidaya: The Guidance, Volume II, al-Marghinani (d. 1197)
Book XIII “Siyar” (60 pages)
When the Muslims commence battle, and they have surrounded a city or a fort, they are to invite the inhabitants to accept Islam, due to what is related by Ibn Abbas (God bless them both) “that the Prophet (God bless him and give him peace) did not commence combat with people without first inviting them to Islam. He said: If they respond positively, they are to refrain from fighting them, due to the attainment of the purpose. If they refuse, they are to invite them to the payment of the jizyah, and this is what the Prophet (God bless him and grant him peace) ordered the commanders of the armies to do for it is one of the consequences upon the conclusion of battle, according to what the text stated. This applies to those among them who are eligible to accept the payment of the jizyah. Those from whom jizyah s not acceptable like the apostates or the idol worshippers from among the Arabs, there is no benefit in inviting them to accept jizyah because only Islam is acceptable from them. Allah, the Exalted, has said “The shall ye fight, or they shall submit.” (Verse 48:16) (page 291)

<<< Maliki >>>

The Distinguished Jurist’s Primer, Volume I, Ibn Rushd (d. 1198)
Book X “Jihad” (32 pages)
Paragraph 10.1.7. Section 7: Why wage war?
Why wage war? The Muslim jurists agreed that the purpose of fighting the People of the Book, excluding the (Qurayshite) People of the Book and the Christian Arabs, is one of two things: it is either for their conversion to Islam or the payment of the jizya. The payment of the jizya is because of the words of the Exalted: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah or the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah and His Messenger hath forbidden, and follow not the religion of truth, until the pay the tribute readily being brought low. (page 464)

God Bless!

SirStephen
 
You’re wasting your time, Islam represents the bottom of humanities barrel.
 
You’re wasting your time, Islam represents the bottom of humanities barrel.
As a former atheist, I can tell you that you’re wrong. Atheism is the bottom of the barrel. At least Islam, for all its many faults, is an attempt at finding God. And from what I"ve read, Sufism doesn’t have the problems of the rest of Islam; in fact, Pakistan was, historically, more tolerant because Islam spread there through preaching by Sufis rather than by the sword.
 
PART III

Fro completeness of record - Tafsir Ibn Kathir treatment for Qur’an Verse 9:29 which applies to People of the Book is included:

“The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah”

Allah said, (Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.) (Qur’an Verse 9:29)

Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad , they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah’s Law and religion. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad , because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad’s advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets . Hence Allah’s statement,

(repeats Verse 9:29)

This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims’ control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination. The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Allah said,

(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,

(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,

(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled.

Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace.

The scholars of Hadith narrated from Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ashari that he said, "I recorded for Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors ﴿ of our houses of worship ﴾ for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit ﴿ or betrayal﴾ against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur’an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. … These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.’’’

SirStephen
 
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