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Elzee
Guest
I’m extremely confused…don’t we want the conversion of Jewish people? And Muslims, and Baptists, and everyone Christian and non-Christian who is not in full Communion with the Church Jesus established? If that is the case, why should we not pray for their conversion…and the conversion of everyone?
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Harmony1988
Guest
It doesn’t make any sense from the Jewish side. If they don’t agree with Jesus being God, then there is nothing to worry about.
I just hope Pope Benedict XVI doesn’t cut the prayers, please dont, please don’t.
They have no right to tell us what prayers to include and not, why are they even listening to what we are praying anyways, it’s not like we go listening in on them or the hindus or buddhists.
Ridiculous.
I just hope Pope Benedict XVI doesn’t cut the prayers, please dont, please don’t.
They have no right to tell us what prayers to include and not, why are they even listening to what we are praying anyways, it’s not like we go listening in on them or the hindus or buddhists.
Ridiculous.
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mangy_dog
Guest
I agree with you Harmony,
I’m sure Pope Benedict XVI will make the right decision. Our job is to pray for him so that the Lord will guide him towards the right decision.
Pope Benedict XVI has a way of using these situations to get his point across in very subtle ways. I admire the way he handled the “muslim quote issue”. He got his point across and never really retracted the intent of his words.
He is subtle and determined. I really love him.
I trust he’ll do the same in this situation.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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pprimeau1976
Guest
Don’t the Jews pray for our conversion? If not, why aren’t they? Shouldn’t they be praying for us to convert to Judaism?
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Conservative
Guest
And to add a postscript here: How many prayers do we, as Catholics, pray every day - The Our Father, the Hail Mary (“Holy Mary, Mother of God”), prayers to the saints; our Sabbath on Sunday instead of Saturday; Bible instead of Torah; Mass instead of Temple - I could go on, but you get the picture. Do we wait now for someone outside of the Church to dictate to us on another issue of practicing our Faith? To me, it’s the limit. And while I realize the rules about obedience to the Pope - on matters of Faith and morals (is this included?) - do we have to be told by outsiders who AREN’T of our Faith - how to pray just to make friends with them? Women who aren’t Jewish are referred to as “shiksas” (sp?) - and it’s not always said in a nice way but do we complain and demand they remove the reference from their terminology?
I’m really losing patience with this issue - particularly when it refers to how we pray. We’re not saying anything derogatory about those of the Jewish Faith - we’re just praying they’d join our Faith. ***Perhaps the significant question would be - Are they that afraid that God would answer us? Are they that unsure of themselves? *** And once / if the prayer is changed - it’s a done deal. Catholics are the ones who don’t seem to get a say in it - but outsiders from the Faith have had their say!
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
pprimeau
If you convert to Judaism, its because God chose you and inspired you to do so.
They don’t feel its their call to evangelize people. God never told them to do so.
This is my understanding.
Jim
No.
Because they believe that they are the chosen people, that is, God chose them.
If you convert to Judaism, its because God chose you and inspired you to do so.
They don’t feel its their call to evangelize people. God never told them to do so.
This is my understanding.
Jim
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Harmony1988
Guest
Huh?
I thought ‘chosen people’ mean the fact that they were chosen to spread the word of God
I thought ‘chosen people’ mean the fact that they were chosen to spread the word of God
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system
Guest
I hear ya! And also get some of the same reactions as you.And to add a postscript here: How many prayers do we, as Catholics, pray every day - The Our Father, the Hail Mary (“Holy Mary, Mother of God”), prayers to the saints; our Sabbath on Sunday instead of Saturday; Bible instead of Torah; Mass instead of Temple - I could go on, but you get the picture. Do we wait now for someone outside of the Church to dictate to us on another issue of practicing our Faith? To me, it’s the limit. And while I realize the rules about obedience to the Pope - on matters of Faith and morals (is this included?) - do we have to be told by outsiders who AREN’T of our Faith - how to pray just to make friends with them? Women who aren’t Jewish are referred to as “shiksas” (sp?) - and it’s not always said in a nice way but do we complain and demand they remove the reference from their terminology?
I’m really losing patience with this issue - particularly when it refers to how we pray. We’re not saying anything derogatory about those of the Jewish Faith - we’re just praying they’d join our Faith. ***Perhaps the significant question would be - Are they that afraid that God would answer us? Are they that unsure of themselves? *** And once / if the prayer is changed - it’s a done deal. Catholics are the ones who don’t seem to get a say in it - but outsiders from the Faith have had their say!
Maybe it’s the rabble rouser in me, but how about we call for a national day of prayer (rosary even!) for the conversion of the Jewish people?
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Indyann
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didymus
Guest
Let’s drop the prayer for the Jews and just have one prayer for everybody:
Okay, it needs a little work, but you get the idea. I’m sure they have experts in the Vatican.
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Sarabande
Guest
I believe this is true. A very close cousin of mine is Jewish (his mother, who is divorced from my uncle, is Jewish). I also have a former music teacher who is a conservative Jew (a Cantor at her synogogue - not really the same as the role of cantor in a Catholic mass. Her chanting is absolutely incredible. The good ones have to go through special training in chant, along with other things - especially in terms of understanding Hebrew for the chants.) with whom I spent a lot of time and learned a lot of about the Jewish faith. I found it fascinating and interesting as we had to learn about Biblical Jews and their traditions in Catholic school in order to have a better understanding of the religion that Jesus was brought up in.
She also told me that the Jewish people do not evangelize or pray for the conversion of the Gentiles. In fact, she told me that whenever a person wishes to convert to Judaism, it is impressed upon them on how difficult and painful of a responsibility it is to be Jewish. It is sometimes made very hard on them and sometimes almost to the point where they practically tell the prospective convert not to convert. They have to know and understand the sorrows and history of the Jewish people throughout the centuries. By going through this and still deciding to convert, it is almost like a badge of honour - something well-deserved and attained.
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Harmony1988
Guest
That’s just plain ridiculous, it sounds like a religion of absurdities. It’s like playing the victim. Sure there have been many horrible things happening to the Jews, but they aren’t the only ones. You get up, and continue on your way, you can keep stopping every year and reminding people ‘oh this and that happened to us’
How many things have happened to Christians in the last 2000 years ? We don’t always bring that up. I have a feeling this isn’t scripturally based either in Judaism, this is just a modern thing, a phase, a relative thing…Judaism isn’t like this. IT’s just something being perpetuated by recent events, i.e. the 20th century.
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rlg94086
Guest
IIRC, Gentiles can still be “righteous” by following the Laws of Noah (??)…something like that. Hopefully, someone more knowledgable can explain. The Jews, as the chosen people, are held to higher standards than Gentiles. If what I recall is correct though, you would think that Jews would at least be encouraging us to follow the Laws of Noah…
Someone please jump in, if you know what I am talking about…maybe you can explain it correctly.
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chosen_people
Guest
Concerning the comments regarding Jews and the conversion of gentiles to Judaisim:
Jews do not seek the conversion of Catholics to Judaisim (though of course one may convert to Judaisim) for the simple reason that according to Judaisim a Catholic actually has an easier path to the world to come than a Jew. Being a Jew obligates you to all of God’s commandments (this is the meaning behind being God’s chosen people which has nothing to do with superiority) while a Catholic is merely obligated to the 7 Noahide commandments which all decent people follow (for instance when was the last time you saw someone cutting away the flesh from a living breathing animal).
Incidentally, since we Jews make up barely one quarter of one per cent of the World’s population wouldn’t it be more logical to change your prayer to specifically mention Moslems for instance?
Jews do not seek the conversion of Catholics to Judaisim (though of course one may convert to Judaisim) for the simple reason that according to Judaisim a Catholic actually has an easier path to the world to come than a Jew. Being a Jew obligates you to all of God’s commandments (this is the meaning behind being God’s chosen people which has nothing to do with superiority) while a Catholic is merely obligated to the 7 Noahide commandments which all decent people follow (for instance when was the last time you saw someone cutting away the flesh from a living breathing animal).
Incidentally, since we Jews make up barely one quarter of one per cent of the World’s population wouldn’t it be more logical to change your prayer to specifically mention Moslems for instance?
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Harmony1988
Guest
Considering Catholicism and Judaism is more closely linked, it makes sense to pray for Jews. Furthermore I think that praying for Muslims’ conversion will probably see the start of world war iii.
As much as these rabbis say, it’s highly unlikely jews are going to go rioting and killing people. It’s not the same as islam.
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JReducation
Guest
One has to understand what the Jewish congregations are fearing and what the Pope is tryng to clarify, both are important.
The Jewish congregations are fearing that the rescript of the old prayer may be used as an excuse for anti-semitic activities, which did happen in the past. In today’s society where they are still targeted, not by Catholics as much as they are by right-wing Christians and Muslims, they are anxious that the Catholics could join the ranks of these other groups. In fact, most Catholics have been the only support system that the Jews have against right wing Evangelicals who lean toward anti-semiticm and right-wing Islam.
The Pope, on the other hand, wants to clarify for Jews and Catholics, that relations between us are still based on charity and respect, that the Catholic Church does not, nor will it tolerate anti-semitic behaviour. While we do pray that someday we will be one family, we do not hate Jews or Judaism and we do believe that we are connected in many aspects of the faith, unlike right-wing Evangelicals and right-wing Muslims, who include the OT in their scriptures, venerate the Jewish Patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Moses, etc) but have expressed very hostile feelings toward Jews and contemporary Judaism.
In a nutshell, the Pope wants to clarify for the Jews that the Catholic Church habors no such feelings or condones such treatment against them. It also wants to send a message to Catholics, that such feelings and negative behaviours toward Jews is not acceptable to Catholicism. Our hope is for unity and our prayer reflects our hope for unity. It is not a condemnation or a rejection of the values that Judaism brings to the world.
This is another reason why the Pope is going to meet with Jewish leaders and making a quick visit to a local Jewish temple in NY.
See article msnbc.msn.com/id/23936933/
JR
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Sarabande
Guest
Hey… I’m just relating what was told to me by a devout, practicing Jew. I’m not Jewish. I’m Catholic. I find learning about other faiths interesting. I’m not saying whether or not I agree with certain thought processes.
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JReducation
Guest
I was raised Jewish and am now a Catholic. I know what the person was saying about suffering etc. It has nothing to do with being a victim.
Judaism does discourage Gentiles from converting, to protect the convert. They warn the convert that there may be many suffering for it. They are referring to being rejected by one’s family, community or even friends from one’s former Church. It is true that many non-Jewish faiths are anti-semitic. This is more common among Muslims and right-wing Evangelicals than among Catholics. But for some persons, converting to Judaism could be the “kiss of death” for them. This is what Rabbis are trying to say. They use the history to show the candidate to Judaism that it MAY be a cause for much suffering. After that, the person must make his own choice. Truth be told, in some cases it is a cause of much suffering if you come from a background that looks down on Judaism.
Catholic clergy do the same with Jews who ask to be received into the Church. I remember being asked many times if I was sure of this. The priest told me “Many Catholics are not comfortable with the term ‘Jewish Catholic’ as they are with ‘Irish Catholic’ or ‘German Catholic’. You will be a Catholic, but you will always be a Jew, because that’s your ethnic heritage.”
I found this to be true. When I say that I’m a Jewish Catholic, some people give me a strange look. I explain that I celebrate Jewish culture, holidays and even attend temple with my sibs, because I have not given up my family or my history. Some Christians ask me why I would attend temple with my sibs or attend a seder with my parents. I often have to take the time to explain that it is not prohibitted for a Catholic to do so.
Some people are very narrow-minded when it comes to Judaism and Islam. That’s what the Rabbis are trying to warn to convert about. Not that they have to spend their lives mourning the sufferings of the Jewish people. In fact, Jewish holy days and worship are very lively, except for Yom Kippur, which is more like Good Friday or Ash Wednesday, a very low key day with a lot of penance and quiet.
I hope this helps.
JR
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
No, it means they are to follow the commandments of God. No where does it call for them to spread the word of God to the gentiles.
As Christians, we understand the meaning of Jews being the chosen people, to be that they are the people who God will bring salvation to the world, through the messiah, who we know as Jesus Christ.
Jim
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