Intergenerational Sin/curses/forgiveness

[Cathoholic]

• We are not held accountable for our ancestors’ sins
• We may have EFFECTS from our ancestors’ sin (and our sins can effect our progeny)
• We may have blessings intergenerationally too.

We may have effects from our ancestors’ sin (and our sins can effect our progeny)

Recall King David was fornicating with the wife of his friend Uriah the Hittite. David was committing adultery.

David had Uriah murdered under the pretext of a military battle gone awry (see 2nd Samuel 11:1-25).

After the death of Uriah, David married this woman (Bathsheba).

2nd SAMUEL 11:27 27 And when the mourning was over, David sent and brought her to his house, and she became his wife, and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

The Lord then sent the Prophet Nathan to King David.

God, through the Prophet Nathan told King David a parable with a guilty man.

David was outraged against the guilty man in the parable (I would even suggest, overly outraged as David wanted the death penalty for someone who merely stole and served a ewe lamb as dinner).

Let’s see what happens . . . .

Here are the EFFECTS on others of King David’s sins of murder and adultery . . . .

**2nd SAMUEL 12:5, 7a, 9b-10a ** 5 Then David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die; . . . 7 Nathan said to David, "You are the man. . . . 9b You have smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, . . . .

And the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament uses the word “oikos” for “house” (household).

There is that word “oikos” or “house” again, the same Greek word which was used in Matthew 12 (see posts 25 here, 30 here, and 34 here).

And the sword did not depart from King David’s household (“oikos”) on account of King David’s sin.

2nd SAMUEL 12:5, 7a, 9b-12 5 Then David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die; . . . 7 Nathan said to David, “You are the man. . . . 9b You have smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.’” . . .

And here are yet more of the EFFECTS on others concerning King David’s sins of murder and adultery . . . .

2nd SAMUEL 12:5, 7a, 9b-14 5 Then David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die; . . . 7 Nathan said to David, “You are the man. . . . 9b You have smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. . . . . 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

And as prophesied, David and Bathsheba’s INNOCENT baby DID die!

Now a denier of this concept might say, “Well this little baby’s soul was not accountable because of David and Bathsheba’s sin!

I would agree. But nobody is saying this little baby’s soul was accountable for David and Bahsheba’s sins. That is utter nonsense. That would be a straw-man argument by people who either cannot see or want to deny the intergenerational EFFECTS of sin.

I agree the baby’s soul was not held accountable for David and Bathsheba’s sins.

But notice there are transgenerational EFFECTS of David’s sin that EFFECTS the whole “house” of David AND even David’s own innocent son!

Intergenerational sin effects exist and can have drastic and terrible consequences.

 

[Stillsosola]

• We are not held accountable for our ancestors’ sins
• We may have EFFECTS from our ancestors’ sin (and our sins can effect our progeny)
• We may have blessings intergenerationally too.

We may have effects from our ancestors’ sin (and our sins can effect our progeny)

Recall King David was fornicating with the wife of his friend Uriah the Hittite. David was committing adultery.

David had Uriah murdered under the pretext of a military battle gone awry (see 2nd Samuel 11:1-25).

After the death of Uriah, David married this woman (Bathsheba).

2nd SAMUEL 11:27 27 And when the mourning was over, David sent and brought her to his house, and she became his wife, and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

The Lord then sent the Prophet Nathan to King David.

God, through the Prophet Nathan told King David a parable with a guilty man.

David was outraged against the guilty man in the parable (I would even suggest, overly outraged as David wanted the death penalty for someone who merely stole and served a ewe lamb as dinner).

Let’s see what happens . . . .

Here are the EFFECTS on others of King David’s sins of murder and adultery . . . .

**2nd SAMUEL 12:5, 7a, 9b-10a ** 5 Then David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die; . . . 7 Nathan said to David, "You are the man. . . . 9b You have smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, . . . .

And the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament uses the word “oikos” for “house” (household).

There is that word “oikos” or “house” again, the same Greek word which was used in Matthew 12 (see posts 25 here, 30 here, and 34 here).

And the sword did not depart from King David’s household (“oikos”) on account of King David’s sin.

2nd SAMUEL 12:5, 7a, 9b-12 5 Then David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die; . . . 7 Nathan said to David, “You are the man. . . . 9b You have smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.’” . . .

And here are yet more of the EFFECTS on others concerning King David’s sins of murder and adultery . . . .

2nd SAMUEL 12:5, 7a, 9b-14 5 Then David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die; . . . 7 Nathan said to David, “You are the man. . . . 9b You have smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. . . . . 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

And as prophesied, David and Bathsheba’s INNOCENT baby DID die!

Now a denier of this concept might say, “Well this little baby’s soul was not accountable because of David and Bathsheba’s sin!

I would agree. But nobody is saying this little baby’s soul was accountable for David and Bahsheba’s sins. That is utter nonsense. That would be a straw-man argument by people who either cannot see or want to deny the intergenerational EFFECTS of sin.

I agree the baby’s soul was not held accountable for David and Bathsheba’s sins.

But notice there are transgenerational EFFECTS of David’s sin that EFFECTS the whole “house” of David AND even David’s own innocent son!

Intergenerational sin effects exist and can have drastic and terrible consequences.

Well quoted intergenerational sin is real as the above poster has shown in his biblical quotes

 

[Cathoholic]

BluesPicker. You said in post 40:

I apologize to Vames for writing about the hair day and indigestion. I actually believe almost everything that Vames writes of.

Well said. Very appropriate.

As you intimated, vames has written many appropriate points here and vames’ admonitions against abuses are to be taken seriously (as I am sure all the readers of this thread including you do take seriously).

ACTS 19:13-17 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists undertook to pronounce the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Seven sons of a Jewish high priest named Sceva were doing this. 15 But the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” 16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, mastered all of them, and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all residents of Ephesus, both Jews and Greeks; and fear fell upon them all; and the name of the Lord Jesus was extolled.

 

[vames]

Vames,

     Having a bad hair day or maybe a bit of undigested pork?   Why does it not surprise me when you admit you don't know what Church documents allow lay ministries of deliverance?

I didn’t say anything to you that may be interpreted as ad hominem. Meanwhile, you wondered if I had a bad hair day or maybe a bit of undigested pork. Think about that.

Before you attribute to me things I didn’t say about Church documents, please remember what I said in post #15: “I have nothing against Charismatic Catholics (on the contrary, anything that emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit is excellent for the Church) or against ministries that are approved by the Vatican. What I disapprove is when people see that there are bad things happening in their life and are quick to attribute them to malefic, unnatural factors that transcend generations. That’s all.”

In practice, I start from these 2 premises: 1) priests are compelled to check if a person has any medical condition and to carefully study all his/her personal circumstances before deciding that the person really needs an exorcism; 2) deliverance ministries, as we know it from other religions, aren’t compelled by such scruples, because it’s in their interest to have as may clients as they may attract. I don’t think specifically about money - it’s the prestige of having “delivered” a lot of easily suggestible people who have been accustomed to the idea to seek a preternatural explanation for their troubles - which is easy, because assuming the influence of demons is way easier than thinking about natural circumstances: natural circumstances can’t be “exorcized”, you have to deal with them on your own and you have to face the reality that they don’t go away just by asking others to recite a formula and to follow a ritual.

I can understand why priests are willing to externalize a service (exorcism) previously operated only by priests. It’s less clear to me how these lay exorcists adhere to the same rules that bind a priest. Because it’s understandable that when a person is convinced that he/she needs an exorcism, the (correct) scruples of a Catholic priest can lead him/her to seek for a quick fix solution elsewhere. “Look, the priest ignored me, he said I don’t need an exorcism, but I know better than him! So I have to find a layman willing to exorcize me!” Are you a member of a deliverance ministry? If yes, how do you discern if the person who seeks your help does actually need a public or private exorcism?

Where did Pope John Paul II ridicule the new rite of exorcism like Fr Amorth did - “They say we cannot perform an exorcism unless we know for certain that the Evil One is present. That is ridiculous”? If JPII did disagree with the new rite of exorcism, don’t you think it was totally in his power to abolish it and to instruct priests to abandon any precautions and to perform exorcisms on demand? Yet he didn’t.

The devil only tempts those souls that wish to abandon sin? Then how do you explain the advice of Fr Fortea that the best way to avoid demonic possession is to stay away from the occult? Or when he says that 98 percent of temptation comes from our heart or the world, not from the devil, and that although many people think they are suffering from demons, in fact they only suffer from temptation, and that “suffering from demons” is very uncommon?

Again, when somebody talks about demonic influences, it’s important to know the context: when psychiatry and psychology were in their infancy, people used to believe that mental illnesses were the effect of demonic influences. One has to exclude “our heart and the world” and to assume that all temptations come straight from the devil to assume that any tempted person needs an exorcism. This is what I understood by “living puppets of the devil”. But neither the Church, nor the above quoted exorcist teach that.

 

[vames]

Here is the syllogism I am trying to make:

Major premise: Demons influenced the “tree” (Pharisees forefathers).

Minor premise: The “tree” (Pharisees forefathers) influenced the “fruit” (Pharisees).

Conclusion: So at least indirectly the demons had some influence upon the “fruit”.

These scandals by the forefathers had effects upon the people. And the fact that the Pharisees are perpetuating sin by their bad example even brings a curse upon themselves.

What is the base of this major premise? Because if you admit the “bad example”, this doesn’t imply demons at all. “The fact that the Pharisees are perpetuating sin by their bad example even brings a curse upon themselves” - how and why? If I choose to follow the bad example of my ancestors, it doesn’t mean I bring a curse upon myself: it only means that I’m surely immature, perhaps lazy, perhaps prideful. But I am free to grow up, to realize that I’m destroying my life and to choose to follow the good example of my other ancestors (because any person has good and bad ancestors) or simply to abandon the idea of following anyone’s example and to learn from my own mistakes. A curse means that I am not free to evolve, that I am condemned by external forces to live and die in darkness - that my free will is diminished by external forces that I’m not able to overcome. But we have free will.

If a guy’s palm reader or “spirit guide” or whatever tells him to dump his wife and kids because he will find happiness with another woman, the effect is totally indistinguishable from the effect of an affair that leads the man to dump his family. Why do we have to come up with the concept of intergenerational sin, when the cause is the same - the personal weakness/frustration/immaturity of the man who chooses to do that? A man can freely accept or reject the palm reader or the woman who tempts him. In both cases, the decision and the responsibility belong to the man. There’s nothing unusual here: people make decisions that impact themselves and their families every day. Not to mention that the families/children are free to live their own lives and to overcome the effect of any bad choice of their parents/husbands. Any abuse survivor and any psychologist who has ever talked to an abuse survivor can tell you that.

About pagan idols: Belief in demons as we know them (fallen angels that once opposed God and were punished) has a meaning only in a Christian context. For people (like the multicultural Corinthians) who had to be taught and reassured that there’s only one God, any pagan deity had to be demonized by the Christian evangelizers (to demonize = to portray as wicked and threatening). “If they don’t worship God, any other deity that they worship must be a demon!” But we know that the pagans who lived in Corinth didn’t worship demons, precisely because they were pagans, i.e. didn’t have any notion about “demons”.

As for “the furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life”, our current Catechism doesn’t mention anything about “the good or bad influence of example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with the end of the world”, which is from the Catechism of Trent. Why do you think our current Catechism didn’t quote Trent at this point? Could it be because nowadays we have a better understanding of God’s justice and mercy, of the importance of free will and of the way in which ignorance and other circumstances diminish personal guilt? This is what our Catechism says about the Last Judgment: CCC 1040 “We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death”.

 

[vames]

Are you a member of a deliverance ministry? If yes, how do you discern if the person who seeks your help does actually need a public or private exorcism?

@BluesPicker: Now I apologize to you - I have read post #40, so please ignore my question. Thank you for all your clarifications

 

[Cathoholic]

vames. You mentioned:

QUOTE:
. . . . . our current Catechism doesn’t mention anything about “the good or bad influence of example, affecting as it does the conduct of many, is to terminate only with the end of the world”, which is from the Catechism of Trent.

That’s fine vames. I am not trying to get you to affirm the Roman Catechism.

But I DO affirm both the Roman Catechism AND the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the CCC).

The Roman Catechism (also called The Catechism of the Council of Trent) is a work of first rank as a summary of Christian teaching and the CCC affirms this.

CCC 9a "The ministry of catechesis draws ever fresh energy from the councils. The Council of Trent is a noteworthy example of this. It gave catechesis priority in its constitutions and decrees. It lies at the origin of the Roman Catechism, which is also known by the name of that council and which is a work of the first rank as a summary of Christian teaching. . . ."12 The Council of Trent initiated a remarkable organization of the Church’s catechesis. . . . .

(bold CCC mine)

 

[Cathoholic]

I stated:

“The fact that the Pharisees are perpetuating sin by their bad example even brings a curse upon themselves”

vames. You replied:

How and why?

That is quite all right vames. You don’t need to affirm this. I am not trying to get you to affirm the Pharisees were bringing a curse upon themselves with their sin of scandal.

But I do see it.

CCC 2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87

(bold CCC mine)

 

[BluesPicker]

@BluesPicker: Now I apologize to you - I have read post #40, so please ignore my question. Thank you for all your clarifications

Vames,

      I  am aware of  priests like  Fr. Peter Joseph who put forth a strong argument that seems to agree with your notions or the slant of some things you put forth.   Sure one should have a healthy degree of skepticism in regards to the writings of the clergy.  But that skepticism should drive one to seek the truth of these matters, not just tear down.  There are rumors that Pope Françis has convened a new ecumenical council, VC III.  That and 4 other rumors that just are not true, at all.   This being the case, what can some tear up the reputation of other priests. 

    Rather than make absurd statements, just maybe one should make a serious inquiry into matters.  But most of all don't repeat errors made by mass media people who are not of the Church, could care less about the Church, and who actually are people not of Faith.   


      There are serious questions concerning the New Rite of Exorcism in it's first form just as there are serious questions concerning the New Book of Blessings.  The New Rite of Exorcism is complex and about 60 pages long.   I have read through it for content and  I really like it.  Surely it is a great work.   The objections raised are not just by Fr. Amorth.   There is clearly a circle within a circle in the ministry of deliverance.  The inner-circle is for priests and Bishops.   

     This concern about the supposed mentally ill people, suddenly like someone going "Boo", hearing the prayers of exorcism is almost groundless.   I will give an example:

The citation below is from Fatima Reconsidered by Richard Salbato

I met the pastor of the Church, who was also the editor of the “Clarion Herald”, Father Romagosa. In his Church, the statue was crying. There were two remarkable miracles.

"But there was also a seer, an exile from Poland. This seer was running around saying that the Virgin had appeared many times to her and was giving out messages of why the Virgin was crying. She had been following the statue for many months and the new custodian (only two years) allowed her to travel with the Statue.

But Father Romagosa had more discernment than the custodian did. He invited the seer with the initials AW, into his office and asked if the Virgin could give him a message. She knelt on the floor to pray with the assurance that the Virgin would always appear. Father Romagosa went across the room and sat in a chair and began to read out of a prayer book.

The woman, AW, prayed and prayed and prayed but nothing happened. Finally her face turned demonic and she began to scream at the good Father in a language that only a truck driver would use. She stormed out of the room and drove away so fast that her tires left rubber.

Father Romagosa was reading exorcism prayers from an exorcist book."

  This incident happened.  The bodily, spiritual & mental health of a person is foremost in the Church.  This is especially so of people asking for help in the Church.  Fr. Amorth does want people to seek help with medical doctors.   Also there are ways of getting around conducting a public solemn exorcism like conducting it in a language not known to the person undergoing this ritual.

   About  St. John Vianney's (the Cure de Ars) statements he simply states that the Devil doesn't bother those who are living in mortal sin.  The object of the Devil is bringing as many Souls into eternal damnation.  So much so, this is true, that some feel that it is the lower demons who possess and not the higher ones even though they may identify themselves that way.  

   Jesus Christ didn't cast demons out and heal the sick out just to alleviate people from suffering.  He did so to show His Divinity and that the Kingdom of Heaven has arrived.   Christ warns us many times and so does St. Paul not for us to get caught up in seeking Signs and Wonders.

     Probably,  a simple conversation would clear these matters up concerning the topic of this thread.   It takes the Character of  Holy Orders to be able to diagnose and break the hold that sin have on us.  True in our hearts we have to forgive to be forgiven.

    I do not like to discuss curses and exorcisms; but  I believe in prayer, especially personal prayer, & especially the Rosary.  We have the best advocate and spiritual mother in the Immaculate Conception.  She will lead you destroy, and break any hold the enemy may have on a person and lead you to Jesus Christ.

Peace & May the Lord and His Mother keep You Safe in their Hearts,
BP

 

[Cathoholic]

In Tobit chapter 3, Sarah, the daughter of Raguel cries out in prayer about her multiple husbands’ almost-immediate-after-marriage multiple deaths, which were associated with a preternatural aspect.

About this same time another prayer was occurring from a righteous man named Tobit.

(I want to ignore Sarah for this thread and just focus on Tobit and his prayer.)

In Tobit chapter 2, bird droppings blinded this God fearing man who walked in the way of truth and righteousness named Tobit.

In Tobit chapter 3, we see an extremely discouraged man (Tobit) at now being blind and having his property confiscated from him by the king (for doing corporal works of mercy no less).

Tobit then prayed that God among other things, “Remember me and look favorably upon me” and also prayed a prayer of repentance.

Here was Tobit’s repentance prayer.

TOBIT 3:1-6 1 Then in my grief I wept, and I prayed in anguish, saying, 2 “Righteous art thou, O Lord; all thy deeds and all they ways are mercy and truth, and thou dost render true and righteous judgment for ever. 3 Remember me and look favorably upon me; do not punish me for my sins and for my unwitting offences and those which my fathers committed before thee. 4 For they disobeyed thy commandments, and thou gavest us over to plunder, captivity, and death; thou madest us a byword of reproach in all the nations among which we have been dispersed. 5 And now thy many judgments are true in exacting penalty from me for my sins and those of my fathers, because we did not keep thy commandments. For we did not walk in truth before thee. 6 And now deal with me according to thy pleasure; command my spirit to be taken up, that I may depart and become dust. For it is better for me to die than to live, because I have heard false reproaches, and great is the sorrow within me. Command that I now be released from my distress to go to the eternal abode; do not turn thy face away from me.”

Here is what DIDN’T occur in Heaven at this repentance prayer of Tobit’s.

NOT TOBIT 3:16 (PHANTOM VERSE) “And Raphael was sent by the Lord to Tobit to tell Tobit to knock off the prayer about effects (or as Tobit said: “punishment”) on Tobit concerning the sins of his fathers. Tell Tobit he can pray a prayer of repentance for himself, but Tobit’s just got to stop that part about the sins of his forefathers.”

Is THAT what occurs? No!

Here is what really occurred in Heaven at this repentance prayer of Tobit’s.

TOBIT 3:16-17 16 The prayer of both was heard in the presence of the glory of the great God. 17 And Raphael was sent to heal the two of them: to scale away the white films of Tobit’s eyes; to give Sarah the daughter of Raguel in marriage to Tobias the son of Tobit, and to bind Asmodeus the evil demon, because Tobias was entitled to possess her. At that very moment Tobit returned and entered his house and Sarah the daughter of Raguel came down from her upper room.

Tobit’s prayer in part, carries out the paradigm that the Israelites were already taught in Leviticus 26 concerning the iniquity of their fathers.

LEVITICUS 26:40-42a 40 But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery which they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, 41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity; 42 then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham . . .

Certainly someone is going to argue that Tobit’s blindness and wealth loss was all a result of a natural occurrence.

But the point is, the above is what Tobit thought may be associated with his blindness and loss of his belongings.

Whether or not Tobit was correct in his assertion, we are not explicitly told (we are possibly implicitly told, but I am not going to debate that issue here as it is only an implication).

But we ARE explicitly told what Tobit thought concerning the effects of his sins AND effects from the sins of his fathers.

 

[John_Jerpe]

TO: VAMES AND MATURE MOM G
FROM: JOHN JERPE

I think I promised to get back to someone on this. The topic was deliverance prayer and inter-generational sin/healing, etc. I don’t know how the two topics got mixed up, but I think they did. I just finished going through Neal Lozano’s book and I took it back and got my money back. Nothing new, just the same repetitious comments about prayer and salvation. I don’t mean to downplay it, but I was hoping to read something more challenging and direct about the two above topics.

A serious criticism I have of the book, though, is that in the first part of the book, he talks about deliverance prayer and (I think) makes claims about dramatic “cures”. There is something unrealistic and overly dramatic about the claims he seems to be making, at least that is what I felt. The other problem is that towards the latter part of the book, he is still talking about deliverance but is literally describing exorcisms. He makes the same stale claim that virtually anyone can do it.

Lastly, he talks about training other Christians to perform the (rites?) but the training
afforded is extremely limited, if not laughable.

If someone is going to come along and write an adult book about the deliverance ministry, fine. I haven’t found it yet.

John Jerpe

 

[BluesPicker]

TO: VAMES AND MATURE MOM G
FROM: JOHN JERPE

I think I promised to get back to someone on this. The topic was deliverance prayer and inter-generational sin/healing, etc. I don’t know how the two topics got mixed up, but I think they did. I just finished going through Neal Lozano’s book and I took it back and got my money back. Nothing new, just the same repetitious comments about prayer and salvation. I don’t mean to downplay it, but I was hoping to read something more challenging and direct about the two above topics.

A serious criticism I have of the book, though, is that in the first part of the book, he talks about deliverance prayer and (I think) makes claims about dramatic “cures”. There is something unrealistic and overly dramatic about the claims he seems to be making, at least that is what I felt. The other problem is that towards the latter part of the book, he is still talking about deliverance but is literally describing exorcisms. He makes the same stale claim that virtually anyone can do it.

Lastly, he talks about training other Christians to perform the (rites?) but the training
afforded is extremely limited, if not laughable.

If someone is going to come along and write an adult book about the deliverance ministry, fine. I haven’t found it yet.

John Jerpe

HI John,

    I attached two classics "Spiritual Theology" by  Fr. Jordan Aumann, OP  & "The Truth About the Devil" by  Rev. Dominic Szymanski (d. 1951).

   Fr.  Syzmanski wrote "The Truth About the Devil" in 1944.  He could perform and give faculties for exorcisms on his monastery's grounds as he was a Franciscan Abbot.

   The Rosary is the best deliverance  prayer.  The Rosary if celebrated daily in good faith will bring us to obtain the graces we need to conform ourselves to Jesus Christ. 

  One of the most effective deliverance prayers is when one dedicates a Rosary for a person.   The first step in general towards overcoming the enemy, besides following a life of obtaining the sacraments, is an  increase of prayer life.   There are guides out there that provide Gospel quotes pertaining to the Mysterious associated with our Lord Jesus Christ's  Life.    One could take one of these guides as a format for a Bible Study that would entail reading the various Gospel accounts of the same event  and then make your own summary that supplements existing Rosary guides.   This way one can remind oneself what really inspires you about the Mysteries of  Christ's Life,    the recorded accounts of the events associated with or experienced by  the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

   One can say a person's name in the Hail Mary by  Saying "Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for "Name of Person or Family" now and at the hour of their death.  One can also say in the Our Father  "Deliver  "Name of Person or Family".   This is a very powerful prayer. Now, one should say a regular Rosary also.  One has to increase one's prayer life is the underlying theme of  deliverance.   

     Some people say two Rosaries while others dedicate decades.

 

[John_Jerpe]

Hi Bluespicker:

Thank you for your comment on the rosary as being the best deliverance prayer, and I also appreciate your recommendation re. interjecting the name of a person into the Our Father and the Hail Mary. I don’t think I ever thought about it before. It is starting to look to me as though we make the same mistake re. our expectations re. deliverance prayer as we do re. miracles in general. We are so busy looking for drama that we overlook the miracles that occur before our eyes every day.

John Jerpe

 

[Cathoholic]

Here is another example of how we can see a far reaching damage or blessing to others with the actions of one individual.

In the case of our own sin, we see how the Sacrament of Confession can help not just ourselves concerning our own sins, but Confession also helps rectify these effects that our sin has/had upon others ([The Sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession] “has also a revitalizing effect on the life of the Church which suffered from the sin of one of her members”)!

“In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.” How much more true would this be for those people being effected who are close to us such as our parents our own children and grandchildren.

**
1st CORINTHIANS 12:12-13a, 26-27** 12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body . . . 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

CCC 953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."489 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."490 "Charity does not insist on its own way."491 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

**
CCC 1469** This sacrament reconciles us with the Church. Sin damages or even breaks fraternal communion. The sacrament of Penance repairs or restores it. In this sense it does not simply heal the one restored to ecclesial communion, but has also a revitalizing effect on the life of the Church which suffered from the sin of one of her members.76 Re-established or strengthened in the communion of saints, the sinner is made stronger by the exchange of spiritual goods among all the living members of the Body of Christ, whether still on pilgrimage or already in the heavenly homeland:77

It must be recalled that . . . this reconciliation with God leads, as it were, to other reconciliations, which repair the other breaches caused by sin. The forgiven penitent is reconciled with himself in his inmost being, where he regains his innermost truth. He is reconciled with his brethren whom he has in some way offended and wounded. He is reconciled with the Church. He is reconciled with all creation.78​

Footnote 490 in CCC 953 above refers to 1st Corinthians 12:26-27.
Footnote 76 in CCC 1469 above refers to 1st Corinthians 12:26.

Italics CCC original, bold CCC mine.

 

[BluesPicker]

Here is another example of how we can see a far reaching damage or blessing to others with the actions of one individual.

In the case of our own sin, we see how the Sacrament of Confession can help not just ourselves concerning our own sins, but Confession also helps rectify these effects that our sin has/had upon others ([The Sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession] “has also a revitalizing effect on the life of the Church which suffered from the sin of one of her members”)!

“In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.” How much more true would this be for those people being effected who are close to us such as our parents our own children and grandchildren.

**
1st CORINTHIANS 12:12-13a, 26-27** 12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body . . . 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

CCC 953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."489 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."490 "Charity does not insist on its own way."491 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.

**
CCC 1469** This sacrament reconciles us with the Church. Sin damages or even breaks fraternal communion. The sacrament of Penance repairs or restores it. In this sense it does not simply heal the one restored to ecclesial communion, but has also a revitalizing effect on the life of the Church which suffered from the sin of one of her members.76 Re-established or strengthened in the communion of saints, the sinner is made stronger by the exchange of spiritual goods among all the living members of the Body of Christ, whether still on pilgrimage or already in the heavenly homeland:77

It must be recalled that . . . this reconciliation with God leads, as it were, to other reconciliations, which repair the other breaches caused by sin. The forgiven penitent is reconciled with himself in his inmost being, where he regains his innermost truth. He is reconciled with his brethren whom he has in some way offended and wounded. He is reconciled with the Church. He is reconciled with all creation.78​

Footnote 490 in CCC 953 above refers to 1st Corinthians 12:26-27.
Footnote 76 in CCC 1469 above refers to 1st Corinthians 12:26.

Italics CCC original, bold CCC mine.

Thank You so much for your informative posts.

Pax Lux,
BP

 

[Cathoholic]

BluesPicker. You stated:

Thank You so much for your informative posts.

You are welcome but I can’t take much credit. I get these ideas from others people, but I do have a reasonable file system.

Many thanks for your informative posts as well.

My wife and I are going to go back and re-listen to a series of audios called: “The Bible And Spiritual Warfare: God’s Word & The Transformation Of Culture” (here). This was a very informative series at least for us.

If I come across any other interesting items I will try to post them here.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Trust33]

There is alot about intergenerational/family tree healing in certain circles in the Church. The Korean Bishops some years ago warned against these practices and said they were not Catholic. They of course knew what they were talking about. They even went so far as to say these practices were bordering on shamanism which is an occult practice. We have the Sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation, the Holy Eucharist and Confession. And yet they are often misunderstood through a lack of Catechesis. I think the general lack of Catechesis in our Church has lead to an opening for these other teachings to come in, teachings that are not from our own faith but which often come from other Christian Churches. Also the lack of faith in the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist has lead to people seeking healing elsewhere. We should really be praying for an increase in faith in the Eucharist and for a greater understanding of it and the other Sacraments through study and also through prayer. The Saints said nothing about intergenerational and family tree healing, they also said little or nothing about deliverance prayers. Personally I would stay away from the book ‘Unbound’ as I believe it gives people advice which is unwise and even dangerous. I know some people who have taken on deliverance ministries themselves and I also know of people who have been harmed by these particular people who prayed over them. Deliverance and taking on the evil one is dangerous and not for everyone. It is not simple and you cannot just tell a spirit that manifests during a self deliverance to stop hassling you (which is given in the book Unbound). That is naieve and profoundly dangerous advice. You have no idea what you are dealing with. Stay close to Christ and His Mother Mary and St. Joseph, give Our Lord thanks every day, get into an attitude of gratitude and frequent the Sacraments especially Confession and the Holy Mass, pray the Holy Rosary and Divine Mercy prayers as well as prayers to the Holy Angels. Join a good apostolate and do some works of mercy for others and don’t be taken up too much with yourself. Read the lives of the Saints and ask for their help. God bless you.

 

[John_Jerpe]

TRUST33 is absolutely right. I looked into deliverance prayer and after several books like “Unbound” I found it to be typical of “Americanized Christianity”, which is in and of itself an oxymoron. It is characterized by amateurism. If you read these authors carefully you will (or should) realize how poorly educated they are. Even if they mean well (and when someone is selling a book I have my doubts) they are incompetent. As TRUST 33 says, they don’t know what they are getting into. My original complaint was that there are few if any safeguards in place, and American Christianity is a “free-for-all” circus. Stay away from the amateurs.

The most important aspect of this 'demonic" stuff is that the people who are attracted to it are looking at an expression of power. I.e., (“I am the ‘exorcist’ and I have power that you don’t, blah blah blah”). The guy who BOASTFULLY wants to be an exorcist is the last one on the planet who can be trusted with the job. A real demon would either use him or make mince meat out of him. That is why authority is SO IMPORTANT!!!

John Jerpe

Like I said, I read “Unbound” and I unbound myself by getting my money back.

 

[Cathoholic]

Trust33. You said:

There is alot about intergenerational/family tree healing in certain circles in the Church. The Korean Bishops some years ago warned against these practices and said they were not Catholic.

I could only find items about the directive, not an English translation of the directive itself.

Here is what was stated about the directive.

According to the directive, proponents of this practice believe that people inherit their ancestors’ sins . . . .

I have taken great pains on this thread, to ALSO affirm nobody inherits their ancestors sins.

This is not what anybody is asserting on this thread as far as I can tell.

I don’t think you are trying to assert that there are no EFFECTS intergenerationally from the sins of our ancestors are you?

Are their no EFFECTS from the sin of abortion on a baby who is aborted??

That is what this thread has been concerned with—the EFFECTS of intergenerational sins (not the “INHERITANCE” of their ancestors sins).

You also said:

Stay close to Christ and His Mother Mary and St. Joseph, give Our Lord thanks every day, get into an attitude of gratitude and frequent the Sacraments especially Confession and the Holy Mass, pray the Holy Rosary and Divine Mercy prayers as well as prayers to the Holy Angels. Join a good apostolate and do some works of mercy for others and don’t be taken up too much with yourself. Read the lives of the Saints and ask for their help. God bless you.

Excellent advice and I agree with it all too.

But WHY give this advice if the effects of intergenerational sin don’t even exist?

You also said:

I also know of people who have been harmed by these particular people who prayed over them. Deliverance and taking on the evil one is dangerous and not for everyone. It is not simple and you cannot just tell a spirit that manifests during a self deliverance to stop hassling you (which is given in the book Unbound). That is naieve and profoundly dangerous advice. You have no idea what you are dealing with.

Again great advice.

That was my point too here.

John Jerpe. You said:

I looked into deliverance prayer and after several books like “Unbound” I found it to be typical of “Americanized Christianity”, which is in and of itself an oxymoron. It is characterized by amateurism.

Trust33 seemed to reaffirm this.

I have never read or even heard of “Unbound” that I recall (perhaps someone mentioned this book on this thread already but it did not stick with me if they did), but I will take both of your advice on it and NOT consider this book.

Thanks for the heads up.

My advice for dealing with the effects of intergenerational sin is pretty much what you outlined Trust33. I would probably also recommend having a Mass for this intention and perhaps recommending cultivating a devotion to the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ. Here Pope John XXIII writes about this devotion.

Admittedly, the Pope does not recommend nor dissuade it for these purposes, but none of the other things mentioned here are specifically for those purposes either.

Here is the Litany in honor of Jesus in His Most Precious Blood was drawn up by the Sacred Congregation of Rites and promulgated by Pope John XXIII on February 24, 1960.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Cathoholic]

I mentioned below in post 59:

Here is the Litany in honor of Jesus in His Most Precious Blood was drawn up by the Sacred Congregation of Rites and promulgated by Pope John XXIII on February 24, 1960.

I noticed there is a typo in the prayer translation from the link.

. . . Blood of Christ, Incarnate Word or God, . . .

Should be

. . . Blood of Christ, Incarnate Word of God, . . .

If that sort of thing irritates you, here is a link without the typo and has the English AND Latin translations of the prayer promulgated by Pope John XXIII (and written by the Sacred Congregation of Rites).