Intersex Surgeries

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Alex337

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Hello there!

I’ve been away for a while (work has been hectic) and I thought I’d pop back to chat again. This time I was wondering about peoples thoughts on surgeries performed on intersex children.

This is a big topic, especially as there are many varieties of intersex. Essentially since the 1950s intersex children have often received surgeries well before they could consent to alter their genitals, remove gonads, even going so far as clitorectomies. Often the parents of the child aren’t told the exact truth of the matter, with many being told that leaving gonads in place will result in cancer (not entirely true) and sometimes neglecting to mention that the child will then have to receive hormone replacement therapy for the rest of their life.

Do people think these surgeries should be performed on children? While the cancer risk is low (about 5% apparently), is it enough to perform invasive surgery and leave a person requiring HRT? Is it better to wait until the child can make an informed decision?

There’s an interesting video series on the types of surgeries intersex children are given here, the host is a woman with androgen insensitivity disorder (an intersex condition where she has XY chromosomes and internal testes but as her body cannot process androgens she developed as a woman);
 
I would wait until the child could decide unless there was a compelling reason it was needed ASAP.
 
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Doubt there’s one definitive answer. It depends on the condition, the risks, and the benefits. I would err on the side of preserving the child’s autonomy to make decisions later, but there are plenty of situations where the parents would be acting properly in getting the child surgery ASAP.
 
You really have to wait for the child to get older to tell you what gender they are unless there is some emergency issue. If you don’t wait you have a 50/50 chance of getting it wrong, and by the time you realize it, there may not be much you can do.
 
Alex337 said:
I’ve been away for a while (work has been hectic) and I thought I’d pop back to chat again. This time I was wondering about peoples thoughts on surgeries performed on intersex children
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What’s with the obsession with rare medical conditions?

How is this conducive to the building up of the Body of Christ?
 
Usually these intersex conditions show that there is an actual sex but something happened along the way. (forgive me I’m so tired to be articulate).

If it’s such a condition, I guess a surgery would be fine. I feel like not having a surgery maaay lead to gender confusion? I am not knowledgeable on the topic, though. Just remembered bits and pieces from a traumatizing class.

I think it depends on the context. There’s no clear answer from me.
 
There are other ways, besides genitals to determine sex. It is not by a flip of a coin, nor is it a decision the child makes, especially in these perverted days of so-called “gender fluidity”. Chromosomes are the first indicator. Hormones is another. These sorts of analysis can determine what the sex of the child is and any needed surgery.
 
So what about the actual example the OP provided? Women with AIS. They have a Y chromosome. Their body makes plenty of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone. They’re externally phenotypically female (they have breasts, vaginas, and in some cases almost no body hair). On what basis would you determine this person’s sex?
 
Spyridon said:
What’s with the obsession with rare medical conditions?

How is this conducive to the building up of the Body of Christ?
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BroIgnatius said:
Chromosomes are the first indicator. Hormones is another. These sorts of analysis can determine what the sex of the child is and any needed surgery.
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If you believe God does not make mistakes, then this is a test case for your understanding of what gender is and what it isn’t.

As an aside, chromosomes are most likely co-responsible. There is a condition call androgen insensitivity. People with this condition can develop in a way that essentially is entirely female except lacking a womb and ovaries. I believe they do have testes in some way or another.

Also, if this topic is about being able to have children, why not the concern for vasectomies (which in themselves are genital mutilation)? We are dealing with Biblical social standards that basically viewed women as property and completely subservient to her husband. Society has basically rejected this, why not let people live in the social context they would like to; especially if they are open to procreation?
 
God makes no mistakes. And God is not responsible for birth defects, anomalies in chromosomes, or any other aberration of physical, mental, or psychological conditions, nor is He the author of suffering and evil.
.

Also, “gender” is a term in grammar and is misused in any other contexts. The word has been stolen, in good Orwellian style, to mean something that it is not.

As to sex, there is only male and female.
 
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OK. You still didn’t answer my question. On what basis would you determine the sex a person with AIS?
 
Well, quite clearly in an anomalous situation like that, you don’t need to rush to pigeonhole the person’s sex. That is precisely why we have the term ‘intersex’. I agree with other posters that unless there is a compelling health reason for surgery, it should not be performed on young children. If they choose to undergo something when they are an adult, that is a matter for the individual patient and their doctor
 
There have been a few threads on this general topic. The intersex condition has touched my extended family twice. I’ve mentioned this on other threads.
Back when my (half) sis was just a baby, doctors thought they could control development. Her parents “chose” for her. She was “sewn up”, and at the age of 8 was given testosterone to enhance development. Nevertheless, she could not attend hi school gym class… the developed external glands would have been a bit much for the other boy students. She attempted to live in the improper guess.

The attempt failed later in life as her body could not handle it. She came to within hours of death. Correct things or die. The same, less dramatically happened to the other family member.

Nope, it’s improper for the parents to guess and do surgery very early. Nope, it’s improper to wait until the body rebels, because that WILL happen. Declaring otherwise just don’t fly from direct experience. There are or WILL BE compelling health reasons for that choice.

Please, please, please do not consign these people to YOUR will. THEY will know,. Respect that. It is their cross to bear, and their decision how to best serve God.

AIS can and will kill if incorrectly handled. So will other intersex conditions.
 
Cruciferi said:
Do they produce sperm or ovum?
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Neither. Oogenesis (egg production) is impossible since the Y-chromosome (more specifically the SRY gene on the Y-chromosome) causes the primordial ovaries to develop into testes. These testes never mature (and never descend) because the androgen receptor gene is mutated and the resulting androgen receptors are completely insensitive to androgens (testosterone & dihydrotestosterone) and so spermatogenesis (sperm production) is likewise impossible.

So here we are with a dilemma. Neither a chromosomal, hormonal, nor gonadic definition of sex will suffice and so we’re left pigeon-holing people with AIS into one of two dichotomous sexes.
 
AlbertDerGrosse said:
So here we are with a dilemma. Neither a chromosomal, hormonal, nor gonadic definition of sex will suffice and so we’re left pigeon-holing people with AIS into one of two dichotomous sexes.
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You’re one or the other. Male or female. As much as people want this to be impossible it’s not. Just leave everything alone until adulthood. Not every case can be treated the same way.
 
Cruciferi said:
Do they produce sperm or ovum?
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I don’t think that someone who is genetically male (XY) and has complete AIS would produce sperm but they would look female externally. No one might even suspect that they aren’t genetically female until they fail to have a period during puberty. Their testes would be in their abdomen and not be visible externally and would probably not produce sperm.
 
While I agree with you ontologically speaking, this is incorrect biologically for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. If you insist on a biological dichotomy then you should be able to point to a specific biological component that defines sex. We’ve already seen that it cannot be reduced to “penis vs. vagina” (morphology) otherwise women with AIS are indeed women, it cannot be reduced to “testosterone vs. estrogen” (endocrinology) otherwise women with AIS are actually men, it cannot be reduced to “eggs vs. sperm” (gametogenesis) otherwise they’re neither women nor men. Any other characteristics you’d like to take a stab at?
 
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