Intersex Surgeries

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Elf01 said:
I would wait until the child could decide unless there was a compelling reason it was needed ASAP.
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I don’t think that parents should allow male children to be circumsised at birth, either. I think that it’s wrong for irreversibe surgeries which are mostly cosmetic to be performed on children unless absolutely necessary.
 
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“Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is when a person who is genetically male (who has one X and one Y chromosome) is resistant to male hormones (called androgens). As a result, the person has some or all of the physical traits of a woman, but the genetic makeup of a man.”
 
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Cruciferi said:
There’s the answer, Genetically Male.
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Ah! OK. You’re going with a chromosomal (note: not genetic) definition of sex. Very well. Now how do you know that, ontologically speaking, these “males” with AIS are metaphysically men? Were they created male by God?

How do you know that these women are “men”?
 
Since I am not a physician, I cannot answer that question, and neither can any other non-physician. The answer must be, however, a legitimate medical one and not one influenced by the fads of thoughts of our time.
 
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She also has breasts, widened hips, a vaginal opening, no beard, no Adam’s apple, no penis or testes. She does not have the muscular physique of a man.

She LOOKS like a woman, and if you were to throw her into the men’s room, she’d get treated like a woman.

Genetics is the build plan. Hormones are the engineers. Female is the default of every mammal. If the engineers either don’t show up for the job, or are blocked/ ignored, then the body follows the default and develops female secondary sex characteristics.
 
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Cruciferi said:
“Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is when a person who is genetically male (who has one X and one Y chromosome) is resistant to male hormones (called androgens). As a result, the person has some or all of the physical traits of a woman, but the genetic makeup of a man. ”
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No. AIS occurs when a person who is chromosomally male is resistant to androgens. The variant AR-gene on the X-chromosome that gives rise to AIS in karyotypic 46-XY individuals is just as much genetic as the SRY gene on the Y-chromosome. You no biological basis on which to defer to the SRY gene over the AR gene in determining the “real” sex.
 
AlbertDerGrosse said:
Now how do you know that, ontologically speaking, these “males” with AIS are metaphysically men? Were they created male by God?

How do you know that these women are “men”?
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A man is a man and a woman is a woman regardless of how they look. Science has proven that their development was impeded due to a resistance to male hormones. Regardless, I don’t think any intervention should be performed unless medically necessary.
 
So you’re just gonna throw them in a gray area and say it’s impossible to figure out?
 
So if I have a build plan for a log cabin, and the shipping company actually gives me the build kit for a cape cod, and that’s what I build, it’s still a log cabin no matter what?
 
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I’ve met intersex people who identify as such and don’t feel like they are in some sort of negative gray area.
 
Nope, not me. You’ll notice that I’ve consistently referred to women with AIS in this thread as “women”, because the preponderance of traits tells me so. I’m not the one here trying to reduce sex to a single molecular characteristic. I’ll tell you something else, for the vast majority of human history women with AIS were treated as 100% female because it was entirely impossible to run their karyotype and see what their chromosomes looked like or to do an assay on their blood for sex steroids.
 
The two houses cannot be the same. They are distinct, separate, and different. A house nonetheless.
 
Cruciferi said:
So you’re just gonna throw them in a gray area and say it’s impossible to figure out?
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Believe it or not, we can’t figure everything out. None of us can say with complete confidence that having a Y chromosome is what makes someone ontologically “male” from a theological standpoint. Scripture has nothing about chromosomes in it.
 
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The point being that the body developed as female because it did not receive the hormonal building blocks (androgens) it needed.
 
The existence of intersex doesn’t disprove that we are a sexually dimorphic species. It also doesn’t mean that we have to surgical alter, in some kind of ‘best guess’ way, people who are intersex. It is appropriate to treat them with respect for their autonomy, and inappropriate to insist they must be boxed into a specific sex which it is entirely unclear they belong.
 
She’s actually correct, and that fact/myth link isn’t a very good explanation.

If only the X is expressing, technically speaking, that is indeed female. Individuals with a karyotype that ends with XO are phenotypically female (Turner’s syndrome) and sterile.
Cruciferi said:
The two houses cannot be the same. They are distinct, separate, and different. A house nonetheless.
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Then explain the translocation disorder XX male syndrome, where the SRY gene (which is actually key for making one male and is generally tied to the Y chromosome) is mistakenly transferred during spermatogenesis to an X and not a Y chromosome (very, very rare, but a real thing), resulting in a person with some degree of phenotypical maleness and the potential to be a hermaphrodite, but with a karyotype ending in XX.

These things have occurred throughout the history of man - it’s just now we know what causes them as our knowledge of the human genome continues to expand.

For all the things that can go horribly wrong, it’s amazing any of us conform to anything resembling a “normal” standard.
 
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OK, then who is responsible for these conditions? I’m epileptic and solidly disabled if my medication does not work. If God made me perfect, then am I damaged goods? I think not and I do not need pity, I simply need a world that can work in some favor to me. The want of sprawling suburbs means it can take me 2-3 hours each direction to get a professional job when I cannot drive. The “suffering” here is a societal choice to spend many factors more on road building than public transport.

I agree with you that there are two sexes, that’s obvious. Gender means how you fit into the social context. How hair is grown, garments chosen, manliness, and the like are social constructs alone. We do not normally condemn people who have plastic surgery. We do not vilify people who in some form “mutilate” the genitalia so as to prevent fertility. If we are using Biblical context to define gender roles, then we already have rejected most of it.
 
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