Intersex Surgeries

[AlbertDerGrosse]

I 100% agree with this.

H. sapiens is indeed a sexually dimorphic species.
As a Catholic I agree that every single one of us is ontologically male or female.
As a molecular biologist I recognize that biology is messy and we cannot just use a single characteristic to define biological sex.

 

[QContinuum]

The existence of intersex doesn’t disprove that we are a sexually dimorphic species.

You’re right, it doesn’t change that fact at all! It does mean that the species, as a whole, is not 100% dimorphic. Not every single person is completely male or completely female.

 

[Thorolfr]

Since I am not a physician, I cannot answer that question, and neither can any other non-physician. The answer must be, however, a legitimate medical one and not one influenced by the fads of thoughts of our time.

So, are you saying that doctors and the medical profession in general aren’t influenced by “the fads of thought of our time”?

 

[Cruciferi]

Not every single person is completely male or completely female.

Even if we cannot decide, God knows for sure. It’s one or the other.

 

[QContinuum]

God knows who and what a every single person is. I don’t know how you presume to know how He regards them, or calls them. Perhaps they are an even closer image of God, since God is neither male nor female.

 

[Cruciferi]

Perhaps they are an even closer image of God, since God is neither male not female.

That’s a bit much. No, it’s a result of our fallen state.

 

[QContinuum]

I’m sorry, I didn’t realize CAF posters here had powers of ex cathredra.

 

[jtavington]

In these kinds of cases, I think “let the kid decide” is entirely appropriate. The markers are sometimes at odds with each other.

 

[Cruciferi]

Where’d I proclaim that? I could say the same about you “Oh knower of All”

 

[Usagi]

See, that sounds as much like a “fad of our time” as anything, albeit in response to a different trend of our time

Sexual dimorphism is a biological adaptation for reproduction. Why are we so sure that it is an ontological or theological reality as well, such that to God even a person who doesn’t fit into the most common categories must “really” be one or the other? God isn’t biologically male or female, after all, though we usually speak of Him in the masculine.

Of course, if you’re right and there’s a sense in which even souls are inherently male or female even if their bodies are atypical and don’t show it, then the transgender folks have a pretty good theological argument. After all, they tend to be absolutely certain of their sex, even in defiance of the biological markers that typically go with it. If a soul has a sex, that sounds to me like the defect in a transgender person is in the body, as they say, rather than in the mind as some of us cis folks like to insist. If the fallen world can produce for someone a body of indeterminate sex (or missing limbs or whatever) without that being God’s fault, why can’t it saddle a male soul with a typically-female body or vice versa?

On the intersex issue, I don’t have an intersex condition per se, but an extensive digestive birth defect meant that both my internal and external sex organs were either absent or barely developed. My parents were advised that I was “most likely” a girl and treated me as such. I ended up entirely comfortable with that, so in the current terminology I’m a cis woman — but like a trans woman I took hormones from adolescence on and eventually had surgery to (re?)construct the appropriate parts. As far as I and everyone else is concerned, I’m a woman, married to a man and trying to be a good Catholic. However, since I have never bothered to check, there is a small but nonzero chance that I am chromosomally XY. Would you insist that I upend my entire life, leave my husband, and start living as a man at nearly 50 if that turned out to be the case? This is why I have a lot of sympathy for the trans people who are increasingly making themselves known; while I’m cis because my doctors and parents effectively guessed right, none of my lady parts are factory equipment and I’m quite happy being a woman even though it might happen that I have a Y chromosome tucked away somewhere.

 

[QContinuum]

I’m not the one making absolutist statements, which is why I say “maybe” and “perhaps” intersex reflect God more closely.

You flatly pronounced all intersex AIS as male because of genetics. I’m unaware of any encyclical or papal bull that declares genetics as sexual identity destiny.

 

[Cruciferi]

On the intersex issue, I don’t have an intersex condition per se, but an extensive digestive birth defect meant that both my internal and external sex organs were either absent or barely developed.

Is there a name for your condition?

 

[Usagi]

Cloacal exstrophy of the bowel and bladder. If you google it, there are actually pictures of infants with it. Basically their entire lower abdomens are laid open and their organs kind of look like a colorful salad on their tummies: For me it mostly meant that I needed surgical workarounds for my absent bladder and large intestine, but incidentally I also didn’t have any functional or recognizable reproductive organs.

 

[JoyToTheWhirled]

Can I just say that intersex is serious, anomalous situation, best dealt with on a case by case basis, and that early surgery is nearly always to be avoided.
It is not necessary to force intersex people into ‘one or the other’ sex, exceptions to every regularly naturally occuring situation exist and that’s really all there is to it.
This biological exception is not, however, anything to do with the current phenomena of transgenderism, and I think it is extremely unhelpful to conflate the two.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Correct. You will also find the majority of people with these conditions usually end up rejecting the LGBT movement.

 

[QContinuum]

I agree. I use the term intersex when talking about physical or genetic sexual ambiguity.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

As do many. Yet the ambiguity may not be at all obvious, as was noted earlier in the thread.

 

[guanophore]

I would wait until the child could decide unless there was a compelling reason it was needed ASAP.

The reason this is so problematic is that gender is learned so early in life- before one comes to the age of reason. So the child would continue to be confused during the most formative years.

If you don’t wait you have a 50/50 chance of getting it wrong, and by the time you realize it, there may not be much you can do.

Gender is a social role that is learned, where sex is biological. This rave of having children decide their gender, rather than raising them according to their biological sex, places children in a position to make critical life decisions when they are not equipped to do so.

What’s with the obsession with rare medical conditions?

How is this conducive to the building up of the Body of Christ?

As with all decisions about morality, looking at rare cases can help clarify the principles we use to make choices.

If you believe God does not make mistakes, then this is a test case for your understanding of what gender is and what it isn’t.

Are you saying that God created certain persons to have this condition?

Also, if this topic is about being able to have children,

Most intersex persons are sterile.

Well, quite clearly in an anomalous situation like that, you don’t need to rush to pigeonhole the person’s sex.

Indeed, it would be best to wait for such a person to participate in their own discernment process.

She attempted to live in the improper guess.

This must be so hard!

You’re one or the other. Male or female. As much as people want this to be impossible it’s not. Just leave everything alone until adulthood. Not every case can be treated the same way.

Obviously this is not true in some cases, as is shown in post 17.

There’s the answer, Genetically Male.

In some cases, that may be the best answer, but when the body appears to be female, and the hormones function closer to female, it creates a dilemma. Before we had genetics, people that had this condition were just assumed to be sterile females. They had no way of knowing they were XY, so just went on what they could see.

 

[guanophore]

A man is a man and a woman is a woman regardless of how they look.

If only it were that simple. This is about more than just appearance, it is about how the body functions as well. If the body cannot function according to the chromosomes, then having them is not a very useful determinant.

The two houses cannot be the same. They are distinct, separate, and different. A house nonetheless.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting the afflicted individual is not a human person.

OK, then who is responsible for these conditions?

We (human beings) are responsible for them. I mean that in the sense that, though we did not personally cause them, we are the ones who must take responsibility for dealing with the results.

If God made me perfect, then am I damaged goods?

God does not always miraculously intervene on the natural consequences of the Fall.

The “suffering” here is a societal choice to spend many factors more on road building than public transport.

That is certainly part of the suffering (I am sure there is more). I think this source of this is also the result of the Fall. Mankind suffers from concupiscence, which is a natural tendency to be oriented away from God, away from love, and centered around oneself instead of God and the good of others.

As a molecular biologist I recognize that biology is messy and we cannot just use a single characteristic to define biological sex.

I have appreciated reading your posts on the thread. Thank you for contributing your knowledge to us.

 

[StephieNorthCo]

Re: must be so hard…

Yeah. She tried suicide twice. Had a totally failed marriage. Her (internal) uterus went into violent continual contractions, almost killing her. She collapsed, and woke up coming out of an MRI machine to the technician exclaiming, “Oh my God, he’s a girl”.

She is now healthily living as the woman she is.

These conditions are not lightly dismissed with pat answers. Yes, they are rare, but they exist.