Intersexuality

[Zoe_Brain]

Also you stated that you identify yourself as male? If you would like to share, why? Or why does someone with an indeterminate sexual difference identify with either male or female at all?"

Actually, no, I identify as female. I picked the name “Zoe” at age 10, despite having been put in with the boys, because I thought I’d have a normal female puberty. It was obvious to me that a mistake had been made.

I did, eventually, have a female puberty. Nothing normal about it though, and it was about 35 years late. Before then, I thought I was just a transsexual woman with a mildly intersexed male body. Quite common, nothing unusual. As it turned out. biologically speaking I was more properly classed as a severely intersexed female.

Psychologically, I fit on a strict binary model of gender very well. Biologically, I don’t fit a strict binary model of sex well at all. More female than male, but definitely not normally so. I don’t particularly like that, but it’s not something I can do anything about. I’m neither proud nor ashamed - just embarrassed. Yes, I’d like to look more like Gabrielle than Xena, but that’s just feminine vanity.

All the best,
Zoe

 

[NoWhereMan]

Here is a true story, I once knew a person who was born with both sex organs, they let him grow, till he reached the age of fourteen, & decided the male genes dominated, even tho he was growing breasts, which they removed also, they closed his feminine part & left his member which was small. He married a woman, was a sucessful business man, but had a boyfriend on the side. His words to me were everyman should have a husband & a wife. How could he be held responsible for what he believed or the way he lived

 

[ifigoup]

I am not a member of this forum (well, I just registered) so I hope you don’t mind me contributing. I found this discussion in a Google search. I recently heard a lecture in Glasgow by a theologian called Susannah Cornwall discussing the response to intersex and transgender in Church documents (Catholic and Anglican). Her main argument was that these terms are not well understood by the bishops and are therefore caricatured. She argued that if people understood what intersex really was then there would be a better theological response to it.

She has a book coming out soon on intersex and theology! I don’t think she’s a Catholic though but it might be interesting to check out: Sex and Uncertainty in the Body of Christ.

As I said, I am a new member so I’m sorry if we’re not supposed to link to sites outside the forum. I hope a moderator would edit my post if so.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

She has a book coming out soon on intersex and theology! I don’t think she’s a Catholic though but it might be interesting to check out: Sex and Uncertainty in the Body of Christ.

Worry not, true Catholics aren’t afraid of their beliefs being challenged by those of goodwill. Only the Pope when speaking ex Cathedra is infallible, and only on matters of doctrine, as I understand it.

I’m not even Christian, let alone Catholic, but my welcome here has been warm and humane. I’ve criticised the Church in some areas, and I hope given praise where it’s due in many others. In neither case have I noticed any change in the way I’ve been treated.

In my criticisms, I better have a whole host of external URLs to back them up! Informative, relevant ones are welcomed.

The Church usually gets things right in the end. It may take a little while though, sometimes centuries, but they get there eventually. Much of the Bad Press (as in the case of the Galileo affair) is based on distortion by their doctrinal opponents. Some is not of course. Any organisation the size of the Catholic Church has its share of idiots in high places.

Thanks for the link - I’ll see if I can get the ANU library to get a copy.

The only Bishop I know of who has a firm grasp of such issues is the (Anglican) Bishop of Gloucester, the Rt Rev Michael Perham.

All the best,
Zoe

 

[ezinflinn]

Um, the Catholic Church does recognize intersex people… usually, they are allowed to marry people opposite the active organs in them.

 

[Joseph]

Even though someone may be born with both sets of genitals, she or he may identify as one gender or the other (as male or female). I don’t know what canon law says with regard to an intersex individual attempting sacramental marriage, but if she or he doesn’t marry, then the Church’s teaching on sexual abstinence is the same for this person as it is for any unmarried individual.

 

[wendygayledisch]

Galations 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” --Apostle of Jesus, Paul, Holy Bible

There is neither male nor female.

See the trajectory, here?

Spirit is spirit.

Matthew 22:30, “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” --Jesus, Holy Bible

And again,

Mark 12:25, “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” --Jesus, Holy Bible

And again,

Luke 20:34, 35, 36 “And Jesus answering said unto them, ‘The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.’”

God forms us in the womb.

Isaiah 44:2, “Thus saith JEHOVAH that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.” --Jehovah through the prophet, Isaiah, Holy Bible

And again,

Isaiah 44:24, “Thus saith the JEHOVAH, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;…”

And again,

Isaiah 49:5, “And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of JEHOVAH, and my God shall be my strength.” --JEHOVAH through the prophet, Isaiah, Holy Bible

Again,

Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. --JEHOVAH through the prophet, Jeremiah , Holy Bible

God allows what He allows. Satan intervenes in God’s creation–starting in Genesis, throughout the Bible. Illness and deformities occur, for different Reasons–see the Gospels and Job–, for God’s glory and for our salvation, for the good of all he has chosen–see the Apostles…

If people were not allowed to be married without having sex, Mary would not have been allowed to marry Joseph without having sex. Which was it? And what of the “virgin queen” in history? There have been some lauded for their chastity, even married.

God tells us not to join male and male, female and female–Old Testament and New–. Intersex People exist; I know some personally. God allows that. God CREATES INTERSEX CREATURES, at least insofar as science tells us, or something like that, oysters, for instance. THESE PEOPLE EXIST. God says NOT to present oneself as the OPPOSITE OF WHAT ONE IS–in the Old Testament–; that is do not present MALE as FEMALE or FEMALE as MALE. The answer? PRESENT YOURSELF AS YOURSELF. If you have male AND female in there, and you must be male to marry a female, YOU QUALIFY to NOT go against the Word of God. REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE.

In terms of the Catholic Church, I understand that the teaching is for unmarriageability, but I am checking that out not to surmise. My understanding also is that it is based on information received from a scientist or medical person and that person’s summary of the situation. I am checking that out, also; nevertheless, the above is all from the Word of God, and I would need more room to list ALL THE REFERENCES. There are studies in cats–I have the chart/s–that mention the different variations of chromosomes and also the different scenarios like chimeras [sp], combined fetuses and not, as well.

DO NOT GO AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD. WHATEVER YOU DO, TRUST GOD’S WORD, WORK WITH IT, DEVOTE YOURSELF TO HIM, AND HE WILL TELL YOU THE TRUTH. TRUST HIM–GO TO HIM DIRECTLY–; JESUS’ PROMISE IS THAT THOSE WHO ASK HIM FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL RECEIVE IT–NEW TESTAMENT–AND THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL BRING ALL OF HIS TEACHING TO MIND. ASK HIM DIRECTLY; GO TO GOD, AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS FOUNDED TO INVITE YOU TO DO… <3+WENDY

 

[wendygayledisch]

I might add that historically determination of sex has been by sight. What appears to be male is male, what appears to be female is female, and sometimes one appears to be neither… Chromosomes exist on either side of the spectrum of visual recognition; that is, xy combinations appear on female-appearing children and male-appearing children, and xx combinations appear on female-appearing children and male-appearing children. These are present despite appearances, but appearances have always been used to judge male and female throughout history; god first creates male and female from the beginning–as jesus says–and genesis identifies the female as mother, which further clarifies sexuality. Some folks contain both bits of reproductive matter, ovaries and testes, for example, vagina and penis. Which is true? Both. Appearance says both. And a person born without fingers is still a human being, and a person with an invisible penis who is part male inside is still part male inside. The only person who might know is that person; regardless, the parts are there, deformed or not, god allowed it, they contain both, and if they contain male, they are eligible for a female, and if they contain female, they are eligible for a male… Folks are either mistaken, or they are intersex. Intersex qualifies you. Being mistaken makes you in sin, female with female or male with male…so be careful not to jump to conclusions when you might just be mentally unstable. <3+wendy

 

[wendygayledisch]

ezinflinn, may I ask where that information is regarding Catholic allowing intersex to marry opposite active, etcetera, that you mention? the expert in question, by the way, appears to be paul mchue, who is reported to have advised the vatican in 2000 or thereabouts… i was thinking harry benjamin, m.d., at first, who is, rather, the medical-doctor who wrote about gender dysphoria, etcetera… <3+

 

[Zoe_Brain]

IAnd a person born without fingers is still a human being, and a person with an invisible penis who is part male inside is still part male inside.

It’s even more complex than that - for there are those born with brains set up for male genitalia, who aren’t physically equipped. Or those set up for female genitalia, who are so equipped.

Experts at the University of California in San Diego, USA, found that 60 per cent of interviewed heterosexual men who had their genitals surgically removed following cancer claimed to continue to experience the sensation of having a penis.

Intriguingly, the same study showed that only 30 per cent of originally male transsexuals, whose genitals had been removed as part of gender reassignment, reported the same phenomenon.

See **Occurrence of phantom genitalia after gender reassignment surgery **V.S. Ramachandran, Paul D. McGeoch - Medical Hypotheses (2007) 69, 1001–1003

The body reflects the soul - but does so imperfectly. It’s possible to have male neuro-anatomy, that is, a partly male body, and still look female externally. One’s sense of gender identity, whether one is male or female, depends not on externals, but on the lymbic nucleus of the brain. One can even call that the seat of sex.

It’s more complex than that: for the brain is not so much one organ, as a complexity of organs, some of which may correspond to a masculine or feminine stereotype to a greater or lesser degree. Usually if one part is affected by hormonal interaction in the womb, other parts are as well. Hence most people conform pretty well to a male or female stereotype when it comes to “gendered behaviour”. Boys tend to play with trucks, girls tend to play with dolls. We see the same pattern in all primates.

Boys and girls behave in different ways and one of the stereotypical behavioral differences between them, that has often been said to be forced upon them by upbringing and social environment, is their behavior in play. Boys prefer to play with cars and balls, whereas girls prefer dolls. This sex difference in toy preference is present very early in life (3–8 months of age). The idea that it is not society that forces these choices upon children but a sex difference in the early development of their brains and behavior is also supported by monkey behavioral studies. Alexander and Hines, who offered dolls, toy cars and balls to green Vervet monkeys found the female monkeys consistently chose the dolls and examined these ano-genitally, whereas the male monkeys were more interested in playing with the toy cars and with the ball…
Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35

Note though that 46XX people with the Intersex condition CAH tend to show male-pattern behaviour when young, even though 9 in 10 identify as women. Different parts of the brain are involved. By examining the timing of the hormonal glitches in such conditions, one can deduce when the development of different parts of the brain occur in foetu. Degree of masculinisation - or otherwise - of their genitalia appears irrelevant.

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

• Ibid

 

[Zoe_Brain]

the expert in question, by the way, appears to be paul mchue, who is reported to have advised the vatican in 2000 or thereabouts… i was thinking harry benjamin, m.d., at first, who is, rather, the medical-doctor who wrote about gender dysphoria, etcetera… <3+

Dr Paul McHugh is the person you’re thinking of. He’s a psychiatrist who specialises in addiction, and has no knowledge of neuro-anatomy. As Harry Benjamin, back in 1966, wrote:

Many psychologists, particularly analysts, have little biological background and training. Some seem actually contemptuous of biological facts and persistently overstate psychological data, so much so that a distorted, one-sided picture of the problem under consideration results.
Psychiatrists with biological orientation strongly disagree and even decry the exclusive psychoanalytic interpretations. But their voice is heard too rarely."

Dr McHugh is now not exactly popular in the Vatican, due to his advice to them regarding priestly paedophilia.

"McHugh…is the man whose report to the court in one case stated that a defendant’s harassing phone calls were not obscene - including the call that detailed a fantasy of a 4-year-old sex slave locked in a dog cage and fed human waste. At least eight men have been convicted of sexually abusing Maryland children while under treatment at the “sex disorders” clinic McHugh runs at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine - abuse the doctors did not report, citing client confidentiality. When Maryland law was changed to require that doctors report child molestation, the clinic fought it and advised patients on how to get around the law. The memo to patients suggested that molesters report their pedophilic activities to their lawyers, who could in turn tell staff; attorney-client privilege would then protect the molesters from being reported. This memo was fully approved by the boss - Dr. Paul McHugh…”

In short - he’s a crackpot, whose advise on sexual issues to the Vatican, be it on Transsexuality of Paedophilia, has been nothing short of disastrous.

He admitted in his book “Psychiatric Misadventures” that he came to his conclusions about Transsexuality on political and philosophical grounds, then went looking for evidence to back that up.

If it depends on child rearing, then let’s hear about its inner dynamics so that parents can be taught to guide their children properly. If it is an aspect of confusion tied to homosexuality, we need to understand its nature and exactly how to manage it as a manifestation of serious mental disorder among homosexual individuals. But instead of attempting to learn enough to accomplish these worthy goals, psychiatrists collaborated in a exercise of folly with distressed people during a time when “do your own thing” had something akin to the force of a command.

He’s ignored the biological evidence. The autopsy reports. The MRI scans. The genetic data. He’s still convinced that after 60 years of research on tens of thousands of individuals, after every weapon in the arsenal of psychiatry has been tried, even lobotomy and applying cattle-prods to patents genitalia, that there must be some way of turning lead into gold, if they just try hard enough. As late as 2003, he wrote in the conservative Catholic religious journal “First Things”:

I concluded that Hopkins was fundamentally cooperating with a mental illness. We psychiatrists, I thought, would do better to concentrate on trying to fix their minds and not their genitalia.

His attitude towards Intersexed people though is completely inconsistent with that view. For them, he believes that sex is set at birth, and may differ from their apparent sex. He’s thus against surgical intervention on Intersexed children (as am I, strongly).

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I might add that historically determination of sex has been by sight. What appears to be male is male, what appears to be female is female, and sometimes one appears to be neither…

Hi Wendy! And even more theologically perplexing, there are dichogamous pseudohermaphrodites. Those who appear to be female at birth, but who masculinise later (or very rarely, the reverse). As in the Guevedoces of the Dominican Republic, the Turnim-men of the Sambia in New Gunea, etc.

Male pseudohermaphrodites outnumber female pseudohermaphrodites by about 100:1.

The existence of such people causes severe problems for Theologians adhering to the dogma of the Theology of the Body. They prefer to ignore them. Some, sadly, prefer to deny them legal rights, as they see any such legal recognition as an attack on the natural order of the division between male and female. His Holiness’s recent speeches to the Curia at Christmas, and the Diplomatic Corps at the New Year, have been most unfortunate in this regard.