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cheezey
Guest
Thank you!!:thankyou:
Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons
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cheezey
Guest
Not all non-Catholics believe it to be symbolic only. Wherever I were to partake, I, for one, would believe it is truly the blood and body of Christ. What if this is not the doctrinal consensus of my ‘Club’? And I’d really like to receive Him, at least once before I die, and I probably will die before completing the Catholic requirements to join. I am hard pressed to believe that Jesus would say, under any circumstances, “sorry, you are not a member.” I am not being harsh to you, by the way; I really want to know what to do. I am truly stuck in the middle. So much so that I cannot think how to explain to you how I feel. I cannot help but go back to the words of Christ that I cannot quote exactly right now. “Love”
…“Give me the supreme confidence of Love, this is my prayer - the confidence that belongs to life in death, to victory in defeat, to the power hidden in the frailest beauty, to that dignity in pain which accepts hurt but disdains to return it.”
~R Tagore
…“Give me the supreme confidence of Love, this is my prayer - the confidence that belongs to life in death, to victory in defeat, to the power hidden in the frailest beauty, to that dignity in pain which accepts hurt but disdains to return it.”
~R Tagore
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Incomplete
Guest
Rather than saying Eucharist is open to all, Scripture says not to receive unworthily. I don’t know a single Catholic who thinks “Ha ha, we can, you can’t.” In fact, it isn’t an exclusive club. Anybody is free to accept Church teachings and join us. We rejoice when you do. However, not even all Catholics should receive Eucharist. The Church tells us we must be in a state of grace and believe in transubstantiation, for example.
The intent is not necessarily the same among Christian churches. While we all do it in remembrance, it is so much more than that in Catholicism, as I’m sure you know.
Here’s a tract that explains it in more detail. The specific part you questioned is further in the article, but it might all be worthwhile to you.
catholic.com/tracts/who-can-receive-communion
Edit: You were responding to others as I was typing this. Do look at that article. It will explain that it is more than just believing that you are truly receiving Christ.
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St_Francis
Guest
How many services do the Episcopalians have? In my diocese, each parish has at least 4: one Saturday evening, one early in the morning, one later, and a Spanish Mass.
And Catholics Go the Mass to worship God, not to socialize with each other. They spread out because they are more recollected towards God that way.
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St_Francis
Guest
Calilobo,
You say you are intrigued by the Catholic Church. Why?
You say you are intrigued by the Catholic Church. Why?
J
jmcrae
Guest
Holy Communion, for Catholics, is not a “fellowship meal” in the same way that it is for Protestants. To be “excluded” from receiving Holy Communion does not mean that we don’t like you or that you are not our friend - far from it. Everyone is welcome to attend our fellowship suppers, which usually don’t take place in Church.
For Catholics, Holy Communion is a living encounter with Jesus Christ, which requires a great deal of preparation (for adults coming into the Church, this means RCIA).
It also requires that we be in a state of grace, so for Catholics that means an Examination of Conscience, and a visit to the Confessional if necessary. Since Protestants can’t go to Confession, it is therefore not possible for them to receive Holy Communion.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Are you going to die before Easter this year?
If so, then you can invite a priest to your death bed, convince him that you are sincere in your desire to die as a Catholic, and you can receive the Sacraments of Initiation at that time.
But if you will survive until Easter, then you need to join an RCIA, be properly prepared and instructed, and do it that way, just like everyone else.
C
CaliLobo
Guest
Actually I’m not fully aware of the response. Could you please answer this question if you can?
BTW that’s another common argument, 1 Catholic church versus 26,000 Protestant churches. But as I’ve said before, there’s always another liberal parish that disagrees. Doesn’t this mean the Catholic Church is highly divided??
St Francis:
Its intellectual edge. Protestants couldn’t have come up with Humanae Vitae for example.
Also, as a Protestant you grow up learning that venerating Mary and the saints is idolatry, having the crucifix is idolatry, how the papacy is unbiblical, and how its teachings on contraception, the Real Presence, papal infallibility, mortal and venial sin, confession, purgatory, prayers for the dead, and lots of other things are UNBIBLICAL. Add to that the historical wrongs of the Catholic Church (which Benedict has gone on an apology tour for), and why would anyone be Catholic?
Go to any Protestant church and you’ll find the people there are convinced that Catholics are unbiblical, and may even cite Bible verses in support of their position. Careful, they may even convert you!
But, a few years ago I met a friend that intelligently argued back about how all of those Catholic teachings are Biblical. Even Sola Scriptura, which I took for granted (as a Protestant, it sounds so elegant it HAS to be true), was called in question.
So, if it’s biblical, and it’s really the original church Christ founded (plus a little friendly pressure “It’s a good fit for intellectuals like you”…lol), I felt the need to explore.
But unfortunately, I explore Catholic parishes and find them to be moribund. I don’t find the same devotion to Gospel preaching, evangelism, missions, Bible reading and study, or even the social scene I can find in a Protestant church. Even Catholics I know come to Protestant churches because the Bible study and “fellowship” is better. Even in RCIA, where is the sense that the instructors truly care about me? It seems they leave me alone to explore for myself. And if I ask questions I get nothing but platitudes as answers.
If you wish to be baptized at a Protestant church you will get invites to baptism or “Alpha” classes. Many people will want to be your friend and show that they care about you. If you visit a Protestant church for the first time, you will get people inviting you to their social events. You will get people wanting you to fill out a contact card so they can be in touch. Annoying? Yeah even I’ve found it annoying. But at least they CARE to be annoying!
I started RCIA at St. Monica’s in Santa Monica, CA before moving to New Mexico. The first meeting was about social justice. But the guy was reluctant to even mention abortion, until I asked him “Hey we need to talk about abortion, right?” And then he said to vote our conscience, that the Church would never reject someone from RCIA for how he votes, that there are many types of “pro-choice” (for example, some are pro-choice when it’s the life or health of the mother), and that there are people in the parish that are struggling with the decision to have an abortion, and that every situation is different.
Hardly sounds like the position of the Vatican.
But if Catholicism is so true, why isn’t it more alive in the West? Why is it so moribund, confused, and divided? I’ve read the article that Saintalphonsus sent me privately, but all Gary Hoge is doing is finding excuses.
Why am I disappointed at what I found? And once again, where is the desire for revival, evangelism, missions, Bible reading and preaching, and even people wanting to reach out and show love by befriending you??
Is it really true that under Benedict, such stuff isn’t a priority, and that his primary goal is to write down the whole of Catholic teaching for a future generation to read? After all, he did once say the Catholic Church may have to shrink before it grows again.
This sounds offensive, but when even gays are friendlier than Catholics, how can I see Jesus in Catholics?
P.S. And I know drinking and smoking aren’t taboo in Catholic circles, but shouldn’t there be limits placed on that? After all, shouldn’t Catholics show they are different (salt and light) when it comes to the choice to smoke or drink?? Protestants show they are different. For example, all the dry weddings I’ve gone to are Protestant weddings.
C
cheezey
Guest
I do not believe in Whatever. If I believe as I do, which is as the Catholic Church needs me to as a member, how is that whatever?
1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
If I believe as I do and as the Catholic Church needs me to as a member, how is this unworthy?
“Faith was required.” Got that.
jmcrae asks if I will make to Easter. !!!
“If so, then you can invite a priest to your death bed, convince him that you are sincere in your desire to die as a Catholic, and you can receive the Sacraments of Initiation at that time.” And then what, hope and pray for the best? Can I not know some comfort before leaving?
“But if you will survive until Easter, then you need to join an RCIA, be properly prepared and instructed, and do it that way, just like everyone else” Ouch…What happens if I survive til after Easter but before completion?
"Holy Communion, for Catholics, is not a “fellowship meal” This I know. Well.
“To be “excluded” from receiving Holy Communion does not mean that we don’t like you or that you are not our friend - far from it.” Didn’t say that.
By the way, where is the origin of RCIA?
“For Catholics, Holy Communion is a living encounter with Jesus Christ, which requires a great deal of preparation” Understandable for the full appreciation of it all. But what of those who do not have the time to do this first? Unfortunately, sad timing for that question.
“For Catholics, Holy Communion is a living encounter with Jesus Christ.”
“For Catholics, AND ME, a Catholic hopeful, Holy Communion is a living encounter with Jesus Christ.”
“If we allowed those who did not believe this to receive we would be doing them a disfavour as those who receive unworthily drink and eat damnation.” From the above, am I THAT unworthy? That I want to take in that Living Encounter? Am I unworthy because I have precious little time left?
From Incomplete:
"Rather than saying Eucharist is open to all, Scripture says not to receive unworthily. I don’t know a single Catholic who thinks “Ha ha, we can, you can’t.” Admittedly, one said that to me, recently converted. Ouch. And again, how is believing the same way and genuinely with little time to spare unworthy?
I understood that tract, by the way, but I didn’t expect not to.
To St Francis
“And Catholics Go the Mass to worship God, not to socialize with each other. They spread out because they are more recollected towards God that way.” Didn’t think otherwise.
In short, I am not lost for genuinely loving God. I am not some heathen trying to make a mockery of the Eucharist; I just wanted fuller expression of my adoration of Christ before I leave. No one can convince me that that is wrong. And at this rate, it doesn’t sound feasible. What a shame. Being told no for saying YES to Him…
1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
If I believe as I do and as the Catholic Church needs me to as a member, how is this unworthy?
“Faith was required.” Got that.
jmcrae asks if I will make to Easter. !!!
“If so, then you can invite a priest to your death bed, convince him that you are sincere in your desire to die as a Catholic, and you can receive the Sacraments of Initiation at that time.” And then what, hope and pray for the best? Can I not know some comfort before leaving?
“But if you will survive until Easter, then you need to join an RCIA, be properly prepared and instructed, and do it that way, just like everyone else” Ouch…What happens if I survive til after Easter but before completion?
"Holy Communion, for Catholics, is not a “fellowship meal” This I know. Well.
“To be “excluded” from receiving Holy Communion does not mean that we don’t like you or that you are not our friend - far from it.” Didn’t say that.
By the way, where is the origin of RCIA?
“For Catholics, Holy Communion is a living encounter with Jesus Christ, which requires a great deal of preparation” Understandable for the full appreciation of it all. But what of those who do not have the time to do this first? Unfortunately, sad timing for that question.
“For Catholics, Holy Communion is a living encounter with Jesus Christ.”
“For Catholics, AND ME, a Catholic hopeful, Holy Communion is a living encounter with Jesus Christ.”
“If we allowed those who did not believe this to receive we would be doing them a disfavour as those who receive unworthily drink and eat damnation.” From the above, am I THAT unworthy? That I want to take in that Living Encounter? Am I unworthy because I have precious little time left?
From Incomplete:
"Rather than saying Eucharist is open to all, Scripture says not to receive unworthily. I don’t know a single Catholic who thinks “Ha ha, we can, you can’t.” Admittedly, one said that to me, recently converted. Ouch. And again, how is believing the same way and genuinely with little time to spare unworthy?
I understood that tract, by the way, but I didn’t expect not to.
To St Francis
“And Catholics Go the Mass to worship God, not to socialize with each other. They spread out because they are more recollected towards God that way.” Didn’t think otherwise.
In short, I am not lost for genuinely loving God. I am not some heathen trying to make a mockery of the Eucharist; I just wanted fuller expression of my adoration of Christ before I leave. No one can convince me that that is wrong. And at this rate, it doesn’t sound feasible. What a shame. Being told no for saying YES to Him…
C
cheezey
Guest
Thank you for all your comments.
S
St_Francis
Guest
Cheezey,
I am sorry, I don’t know your full circumstances, but it does sound like you might have a health problem, so I will answer as if that is the case.
I will be honest, there are some crazy priests around, so sometimes one has to persevere. If you have a health problem then call until you find a priest who will work with your circumstances so that you can be received into the Church apprpriately to your circumstances. One can be received at any time; it’s just that the usual way is RCIA and its schedule; however, there is no reason that a priest cannot make different arrangements if circumstances are such that that would work out better. Another example would be military personnel and the like.
However, the priest does want to assure himself of the sincerity and the understanding of a potential convert. It’s like getting married: we have a 6-month period of preparation for people getting married. Entering the Church is even more important to do with full understanding, because the consequences can be eternal, esp for those who have not been baptized.
However, as you say, God is not bound by the sacraments. He judges us each at our deaths, to see what we have done with what we have been given.
J
jmcrae
Guest
You make it sound like you are about to die.
My meaning was, If this is so, then contact a priest and tell him that you wish to become Catholic before you die - and mention to him that you only have a very short time to live, and you are residing at such and such hospital, in this room number.
He will do everything possible to make it happen, and he will give you Holy Communion, after receiving you into the Church with Profession of Faith, First Confession, and Confirmation, along with Anointing of the Sick.
But you can’t receive Holy Communion without first becoming a Catholic.
Easter is completion. If you are a well-catechized Episcopalian, you will be able to complete your Catechesis by this Easter, if you start today. Don’t wait - get going.
It was the three-year process used by the Apostles to initiate new believers into the Church during the Apostolic Age (33-90 AD).
After their deaths, it was extended to a seven-year process. After the Nicaean Council, everyone was required to be Catholic from birth, so the RCIA was replaced with Catholic schools.
The RCIA was re-initialized by Vatican II Council as a 1-2 year process for the children of Catholics who had failed to baptize them, and for Protestants who wanted to convert to the Catholic faith.
As I mentioned above, death bed conversions can be arranged - talk to a priest.
It has nothing to do with being “worthy.” The question is, Are you, or are you not, in full communion with Christ’s own Church? If not, then you need to rectify that situation, by joining the Church through RCIA or through a death-bed conversion. Are you dying? Call a priest. Let him know that you are a non-Catholic who is dying, and that you would like to be initiated into the Church and receive Holy Communion upon your death bed.
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Incomplete
Guest
If I gave the impression that I expected you not to understand, I again miscommunicated.
If you have very little time, then you don’t have to go through an RCIA program. You can work things out with a priest in a different and quicker manner.
Your comments about being unworthy, that is not the only thing that keeps people from Eucharist. You read the tract, so you know that in your case that is not the part that applies.
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cheezey
Guest
Thank you for your help and suggestions. I do not know what to say any further.
Wait, yes I do
from the Catechism:
1401 When, in the Ordinary’s judgment, a grave necessity arises, Catholic ministers may give the sacraments of Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church, who ask for them of their own will, provided they give evidence of holding the Catholic faith regarding these sacraments and possess the required dispositions.241 (1483, 1385)
What would you suppose that evidence is? I do not know this catechism well, and even if I did, I’d still have questions about it, but absolutely no doubts about my faith. And I just recently had to tell my brother of something from the catechism of which he had no awareness. He is converted to the Catholic faith, RECENTLY having gone through the program so he can’t have forgotten it already. Whether he has or not, it was noteworthy that he said, ‘huh.’ as if he didn’t know this information at all, be it from the catechism or his priest. Is this in any way, shape or form telling evidence of my willingness?
I am devastated in many ways. please bear with me if I seem distraught. I am. And distraught for 30 lives as well as I am sure all of us are. Jesus, in His mercy, can do anything. I need expression of this. That’s it…
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cheezey
Guest
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cheezey
Guest
Not quite what I meant, but what do I know.
Thank you for the info.
I
Incomplete
Guest
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jmcrae
Guest
The only situation I can think of that fits that description would be, in a time of war, a Lutheran or an Anglican or a member of an Eastern Orthodox Church is cut off from his own people and gets stuck on the Catholic side of the line for an extended period of time; he can request the Sacraments of Penance and Holy Communion from a Catholic priest, and explain to him that although he has no intention of becoming Catholic, he cannot presently receive the Sacraments from his own people, and would like to receive them in a Catholic Church.
But if the person had access to his own community, there would be no reason for him to need the Sacraments from a Catholic priest, if he does not intend to become a Catholic.
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Incomplete
Guest
Some RCIA classes don’t prepare people well. Many don’t go through the catechism. One thing about Catholicism; it’s life-long learning.
If you are Catholic in your thinking, please go talk to a priest! Talking will give enough evidence. He may ask questions, he probably will, but he won’t likely quiz you on the catechism. He will talk to you about Catholic beliefs and about yours. My own mother-in-law only took a few months to be received (at age 85) and could have much sooner, but the priest gave her a book to read first and she was reading it slowly!
In your case, if you are at heart a Catholic, and in need of being received soon, it will not take much to show it to a priest.
C
cheezey
Guest
and this is why i am also on the ‘just can’t into the spirit this year’ thread despite that my faith is stronger than ever. Though I entered that thread prior, it is even more challenging as this nation and many families suffer the loss of so many innocents yesterday.
blessings to all and thank you
all who responded are the only people I felt were ‘listening’ to me. However much I tried to ‘get it.’ yu are the only ones.
Again, thank you
blessings to all and thank you
all who responded are the only people I felt were ‘listening’ to me. However much I tried to ‘get it.’ yu are the only ones.
Again, thank you
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