Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons

[jmcrae]

• The Vatican says we should vote against gay marriage and abortion rights. The Vatican says one cannot be pro-choice and Catholic. But I can always find another liberal parish that disagrees.

When Jesus was alive, there were Disciples who disagreed with Him on certain issues - ultimately, they either left or betrayed Him. Don’t discount Jesus because of Judas.

• Why should the Church continue to hold such positions, then?

Because they are the only responsible positions to hold, from the moral point of view. it is always wrong to kill people, no matter how small they are, and it is always wrong to misuse the gift of sexuality, no matter how decadent or hedonistic the society around us has become.

Even when so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican?

Jesus is not a democracy - He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He commands us to protect life and prevent murder, from conception to natural death. We didn’t just come up with this to annoy the liberals - it is the teaching of Christ, and we, His Church, must remain faithful to Him, regardless of what the majority thinks.

• Since so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican, doesn’t that make the Church less effective?

How effective would we be if we just abandoned the Gospel and went with the current trends? Our mission is to spread the Gospel; not to be popular with the trendy people.

Why are abortion, gay marriage, cloning, euthanasia, and (I forgot the other) such immutable issues for Catholics? Yes I’ve heard natural law and moral issues. But aren’t civil rights important?

Civil rights mean absolutely nothing, if we have no right to life. If it’s okay for your family to kill you when you start to annoy them with your illness, then what good is your right to vote, or your right to be educated, or to work? If your wife or your husband or your child can kill you, and say, “I had to put him (her) out of such misery” and it’s legal, then what rights do we really have at all?

• But then again, if the Catholic church were to liberalize politically or tolerate political dissent, what would it then offer that I can’t find in a Protestant church?? Protestant churches are okay with political diversity because they know it’s secondary to the main mission of preaching the Gospel. Politics doesn’t save us after all, right?

Politics is how we live the Gospel in public life. If we don’t live the Gospel according to Christ’s teachings in public life, then the Gospel isn’t changing our lives; it’s just another form of entertainment.

• For every worship-related reason why the Catholic Church is so great I can always find a reason to counter that. For example, some love the liturgy, but others cannot get anything out of the old liturgical style of worship, because it’s just empty rituals to them.

And for every child who loves Math, there are ten who think it’s boring. That doesn’t make Math any less important to a fulfilling career and a happy life in this world.

And why should communion be reserved to only Catholics, isn’t that offensive?

Better to offend unbelievers than to offend God, if so - but most people, once they understand what Holy Communion means - that it is the affirmation that all that the Church teaches is true and is required to be obeyed - then they willingly refrain from receiving it.

And if confession is so important why do most people not do it, and live a life of “Catholic guilt”?

For the same reason that so many people don’t go to the dentist when they know they should - which doesn’t mean that the dentist isn’t important.

• In general, why are Catholic churches so dead and boring?

“Dead and boring” is in the mind of the beholder. If you fully understand what is taking place - that the Angels and the Saints are surrounding the Altar, and that Jesus is coming to the people alive, in HIs Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, then even the quietest Masses are very exciting indeed.

• In general I just don’t see Catholics practicing their faith, the way Protestants do. The Catholic Church does have the edge intellectually, but why doesn’t that translate into a growing, vibrant church? All I see is a moribund, boring church with inconsistency in the beliefs among members. In fact, Catholics who convert to Protestantism complain that the Catholic Church is just a bunch of rote rituals with no meaning. Maybe they need to stop sticking to tradition just to stick to it, adopt more contemporary worship, be more welcoming, and not be so politically involved, so they can convert the younger generation??

You are only required to obey the commandments that God is giving to you. If other people are doing something wrong, He will deal with them - they are not your problem - and their failures will not excuse your failures. “But everyone else was doing it” only works when you’re three years old - after that, not so much.

 

[St_Francis]

Its intellectual edge. Protestants couldn’t have come up with Humanae Vitae for example.
…

Hey Calilobo,
Your questions have answers, but the briefest set I could write were too long, and were inadequate. I really want to answer them, but it will take a while as I have people coming in from out of town. So I will just do it a bit at a time.

Now I will just address your overall problem of what appears to you to be a great Church, but the members seem less than enthusiastic, from the point of view of the principle.

Suppose a really great speaker were coming into town to speak on your very favorite interest. For race car fans, Mario Andretti, for computer geeks, Bill Gates, whatever. So you go, filled with enthusiasm, thinking you’re going to see a great speaker in your favorite subject, and meet people who are also fans, and wow! This is gonna be great, right?

Then you arrive, and half the people seem to hate the topic, and the rest to be ignorant of the topic, and you don’t see anyone in the stadium crowd who seems happy to be there. What a disappointment, what’s wrong with these people?

Wouldn’t you still, when this wonderful speaker started talking, sit still and listen for all you were worth? Wouldn’t you ignore the odd attitudes of those around you and just focus on the speaker, getting everything you could out of the talk?

Sure you would! You wouldn’t let the passivity and lack of interest on the part of the other people keep you from drinking in all this info from an expert on your favorite topic, would you?

In the same way, consider the situation when Christ was here on Earth. At the end of His ministry, He had only a handful of followers, one of whom betrayed Him, several of whom deserted Him in His hour of need.

And today, well, the situation is not much better! There are many who do not want to accept the hard teachings, aren’t there? There are many who ignore Him, like those from His hometown! And then there are His enemies…

So we all stay in the Church for what the Church has: the fullness of Faith. We do not go for the attention when people greet us warmly, we do not go for wondrous signs like people falling over when they are struck on the forehead, we don’t go because everyone there is so pure…

We go for Christ Himself and His truths.

So overall, I would suggest that you focus on what the Church offers us rather than on the attitudes of those who are not really into what the Church offers. Dig into what the Church has always taught: against abortion and contraception and any form of sex outside of marriage; and for loving one’s neighbor as oneself for the love of Christ Himself, Who gave His life for each one of us.

All that being said, I may not get back with any more answers til the beginning of the week, but poco a poco, ¿no?

 

[etomaria]

None of the rest matters. I know it seems so very important to you, but it’s all irrelevant.

The only important thing is this: since the original Pentecost, the Church has retained, protected and taught the True Deposit of Faith.

You will live forever. What you do here matters in terms of how you spend your Eternity. We are never alone for we are surrounded by the constant presence of Saints and angels, of Jesus and His Mother, and we are in constant dialogue with these persons and actual help is exchanged between us and them.

And every day in every Catholic church around the world a miracle happens. Time/space and Eternity meet on the altar and simple elements of bread and wine become the actual Body and Blood, the Soul and Divinity of my Lord and my God Jesus Christ. For you. He comes for you and has been calling you, apparently.

And that’s all that matters. All else is just the nattering of humans who keep missing the point: love one another.

I love this, all of it!

 

[CaliLobo]

None of the rest matters. I know it seems so very important to you, but it’s all irrelevant.

The only important thing is this: since the original Pentecost, the Church has retained, protected and taught the True Deposit of Faith.

You will live forever. What you do here matters in terms of how you spend your Eternity. We are never alone for we are surrounded by the constant presence of Saints and angels, of Jesus and His Mother, and we are in constant dialogue with these persons and actual help is exchanged between us and them.

And every day in every Catholic church around the world a miracle happens. Time/space and Eternity meet on the altar and simple elements of bread and wine become the actual Body and Blood, the Soul and Divinity of my Lord and my God Jesus Christ. For you. He comes for you and has been calling you, apparently.

And that’s all that matters. All else is just the nattering of humans who keep missing the point: love one another.

So since you concede it doesn’t matter, let’s change the Magisterium to truly reflect loving one another by supporting the civil rights of everyone??

Also St Francis, I look forward to the rest of your thoughtful responses.

 

[eddie_too]

before evaluating, critiquing and challenging the decisions of the “successors to the apostles” i.e. the roman catholic bishops as they make responses to the challenges presented by the “prince of this world” i.e. lucifer, ponder what it means to conclude that the organization Jesus created, the roman catholic church, was unable to remain faithful to His mission and His teachings.

to conclude that the church Jesus founded ultimately failed to remain faithful to Him, begs the question i asked in an earlier post, to whom do i go?

have you read and meditated on the Gospel of John, Chapter 6?

were you not struck by the humility of the apostles in their question?

also, an important element of ecclesiology is to recognize that the Bible does NOT contain all of the teachings of Jesus. the Bible itself tells us this.

to receive the totality of the faith given us by the only begotten Son of God, the Incarnate Word, it is absolutely necessary to have access to both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, neither can be correctly understood without the other.

your constant resistance to accepting the teachings of the “successors to the apostles” must be assessed in light of the results of your pondering of the answer to the question, if the Church founded by Jesus did not remain faithful to Him, to whom can the sinners of this generation turn?

perhaps you can address this question and the results of your considerations of this question, because until you address it, you are allowing details and apperance to interfere with substance.

 

[eddie_too]

on the one hand, you object to some of the guidance and responses to modern life that the magisterium provides to the faithful and use your objections as justifications for not accepting the authority of the magisterium.

on the other hand, you appear to want to tell the magisterium the details you would find acceptable to preach.

Jesus’ filled His teachings with details.

for example, He taught us that evil is what comes out of the mouth of man, not what goes in to the mouth of a man.

He taught us that marriage is between one man and one woman, not between one man or two women, or multiple men and multiple women.

He taught us that if we could not accept that there is no remarriage while your marriage partner is living, we should remain celibate.

He taught us that evils like adultery, fornication, murder and thievery come from the heart of man.

He taught us that unless we ate of His Body and drank of His Blood, we could not have Life within us.

His teachings are filled with details. if your brother asks you to walk with him a mile, walk two miles. if your brother asks for your coat, give him your shirt as well.

virtually all actions we humans take in this life have a moral component, some moral components are more significant (serious) than others. we rely on the magisterium to help us to understand where we should direct our energy in advancing our spiritual lives. what some people may consider insignificant, the magisterium may teach us is very significant for spiritual development.

voting has a moral component. as with all moral components of human action, voting irresponsibly could result in the loss of both actual and sanctifying grace. the loss of either is a serious problem for a human being and is always detrimental to their spiritual development.

the magisterium would be very irresponsible if it did not attempt to teach its flock the responsibilties that accompany voting in a democracy.

 

[eddie_too]

the term “civil rights” can be interpreted in multiple ways.

can you mean by term when you use it?

i know of no instances where the magisterium of the roman catholic church does not support and promote civil rights for all human beings.

it may be that you and i have different interpretations of the term?

 

[St_Francis]

Hi Calilobo,
Thanks for your mind words!

…BTW that’s another common argument, 1 Catholic church versus 26,000 Protestant churches. *But as I’ve said before, there’s always another liberal parish that disagrees. *Doesn’t this mean the Catholic Church is highly divided??

A quick answer: The Church Herself is not divided. There are the truths which the Church teaches. And sad to say, there are Catholics who do not believe all the truths, and some who then advocate for their personal point of view rather than for the Church’s.

In a Protestant church, if a member disagrees with what the pastor says, what is the result? A split, a new church in town or a transfer to another Protestant church.*

There is no authority in the thousands of Protestant churches, and so there are many different teachings. Just take baptism. The teachings range from full immersion to sprinkling, from infant to adult-only, from nice thing to do to sacrament. That’s a wide range of ideas on something which is a foundational entry point to Christianity, no?

For Catholics, The Church has spoken: sprinkling, infant, sacrament. When someone espouses a different idea of baptism, there is someone to say, No, that is wrong.

Once we were strongly against heretics and took action against them. Now is not the first time the Church has had internal problems like this: during the Arian heresy, it is said that 80% of the bishops subscibed to the heresy. Sometimes I think the main difference between then and now is that we were willing to call a heretic a heretic and now we back off at the first sign of bad feeling (which relates to another problem I’ll discuss later).

 

[MarkInOregon]

Actually I’m not fully aware of the response. Could you please answer this question if you can?

BTW that’s another common argument, 1 Catholic church versus 26,000 Protestant churches. But as I’ve said before, there’s always another liberal parish that disagrees. Doesn’t this mean the Catholic Church is highly divided??

Its intellectual edge. Protestants couldn’t have come up with Humanae Vitae for example.

Also, as a Protestant you grow up learning that venerating Mary and the saints is idolatry, having the crucifix is idolatry, how the papacy is unbiblical, and how its teachings on contraception, the Real Presence, papal infallibility, mortal and venial sin, confession, purgatory, prayers for the dead, and lots of other things are UNBIBLICAL. Add to that the historical wrongs of the Catholic Church (which Benedict has gone on an apology tour for), and why would anyone be Catholic?

Go to any Protestant church and you’ll find the people there are convinced that Catholics are unbiblical, and may even cite Bible verses in support of their position. Careful, they may even convert you!

But, a few years ago I met a friend that intelligently argued back about how all of those Catholic teachings are Biblical. Even Sola Scriptura, which I took for granted (as a Protestant, it sounds so elegant it HAS to be true), was called in question.

So, if it’s biblical, and it’s really the original church Christ founded (plus a little friendly pressure “It’s a good fit for intellectuals like you”…lol), I felt the need to explore.

But unfortunately, I explore Catholic parishes and find them to be moribund. I don’t find the same devotion to Gospel preaching, evangelism, missions, Bible reading and study, or even the social scene I can find in a Protestant church. Even Catholics I know come to Protestant churches because the Bible study and “fellowship” is better. Even in RCIA, where is the sense that the instructors truly care about me? It seems they leave me alone to explore for myself. And if I ask questions I get nothing but platitudes as answers.

If you wish to be baptized at a Protestant church you will get invites to baptism or “Alpha” classes. Many people will want to be your friend and show that they care about you. If you visit a Protestant church for the first time, you will get people inviting you to their social events. You will get people wanting you to fill out a contact card so they can be in touch. Annoying? Yeah even I’ve found it annoying. But at least they CARE to be annoying!

I started RCIA at St. Monica’s in Santa Monica, CA before moving to New Mexico. The first meeting was about social justice. But the guy was reluctant to even mention abortion, until I asked him “Hey we need to talk about abortion, right?” And then he said to vote our conscience, that the Church would never reject someone from RCIA for how he votes, that there are many types of “pro-choice” (for example, some are pro-choice when it’s the life or health of the mother), and that there are people in the parish that are struggling with the decision to have an abortion, and that every situation is different.

Hardly sounds like the position of the Vatican.

But if Catholicism is so true, why isn’t it more alive in the West? Why is it so moribund, confused, and divided? I’ve read the article that Saintalphonsus sent me privately, but all Gary Hoge is doing is finding excuses.

Why am I disappointed at what I found? And once again, where is the desire for revival, evangelism, missions, Bible reading and preaching, and even people wanting to reach out and show love by befriending you??

Is it really true that under Benedict, such stuff isn’t a priority, and that his primary goal is to write down the whole of Catholic teaching for a future generation to read? After all, he did once say the Catholic Church may have to shrink before it grows again.

This sounds offensive, but when even gays are friendlier than Catholics, how can I see Jesus in Catholics?

P.S. And I know drinking and smoking aren’t taboo in Catholic circles, but shouldn’t there be limits placed on that? After all, shouldn’t Catholics show they are different (salt and light) when it comes to the choice to smoke or drink?? Protestants show they are different. For example, all the dry weddings I’ve gone to are Protestant weddings.

You are comparing a fractured protestant church with the Catholic parish. In the next block from my house is a small church of largely like minded socio economically similar members. They are an offshoot of another church–i.e. they followed one pastor and started a new church. They seem very devoted to their faith and close knit. But they are a small faithful group that was once a part of a larger group. My Catholci parish is much larger–we have everyone. If you look you can find the group of Catholics who are as devout and faithful as those Christians in the church near my house. We have a food closet, weekly Bible study and much much more. We also have a lot of marginal Catholics–but rather than kick them out of our parish–or leave them to start our own more “faithful” parish–we pray for them, try to set a good example and over time invite them to participate in this or that and hope that they grow in their faith. I suggest you will find what you are looking for – if you are looking for the truth and for faithful Catholics struggling to live out their faith–you will find them. If you are looking for lack luster Catholics, those who attend mass sporadically, seem more secular than Catholic–you will find them also. I guess it all depends on what you are seaching for. But you are attempting to compare apples to oranges.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Sarcelle]

So since you concede it doesn’t matter, let’s change the Magisterium to truly reflect loving one another by supporting the civil rights of everyone??

Also St Francis, I look forward to the rest of your thoughtful responses.

How do you propose the Magisterium should be changed?

 

[Sarcelle]

This sounds offensive, but when even gays are friendlier than Catholics, how can I see Jesus in Catholics?

There are about 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. Have you met all of them?

There are unfriendly gays and friendly gays and there are unfriendly Catholics and friendly Catholics.

I am a convert from the Church of Christ and there are friendly and unfriendly members there too.

 

[eddie_too]

and, whose civil rights is the magisterium not now supporting?

if you are sincere in your desire to understand, it is important that you add details, examples or explanations to your accusations.

this post is meant for caliloco.

 

[Sarcelle]

The Episcopalian problem is its hiring of gay clergy. I am in no way supporting that.

“Hip” is working just fine for the nondenominational megachurches, in terms of outreach, new converts, and being alive spiritually. And ironically, many of those megachurches are still conservative politically.

The problem with “Hip” is that it can go from “Hip” to “out of date” in no time flat. Why settle for hip when one can get timeless. I suggest attending the EF mass.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, CaliLobo,

The late Bishop Fulton Sheen was quite clear about the difference between the Truth and a lie. It really does not matter how few believe the Truth is the Truth - it remains the Truth. The converse equally applies - it does not matter how many people believe in a lie - it is still a lie. The number of people on either side of the argument does not change the basic reality.

You’ll notice that Christ did not nominate Peter to get the Keys to the Kingdom - and He did not wait for a second - He did it, without consulting any of the 12. The real issues is that real Catholics are united with the Pope and believe what Christ’s Church teaches. It really isn’t a numbers game. And, considering that all of us have but one chance to get that idea right - before we face Christ as our Divine Judge - it is in everyone’s best truly long-term interest to get as well catechized as they can. While the person who attempted to catechize you may have done a miserable job - and will be held accountable - you, too, share in the responsibility for your knowledge and practice of the Faith. If you complain about not knowinng enough - then start out on a program to learn more. All of us will be asked how we used our time - if you dig a hole and put your time in it - you will be held accountable for this indifference and lazyness, The role model here are the industrious stewards who went out and used their time to further the Kingdom.

God bless

Actually they don’t. Polls show most Catholics use contraception, and most Catholics voted for Obama. And I read Catholics on this forum admitting that most Catholics are poorly catechized.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Actually they don’t. Polls show most Catholics use contraception, and most Catholics voted for Obama. And I read Catholics on this forum admitting that most Catholics are poorly catechized.

It depends on which Catholics you are looking at. If you look at people who are active and participating Catholics that attend mass on a weekly basis, then the numbers change. There are many people who self-identify as “Catholic” in surveys, but do not know or practice the faith of their parents and grandparents. Don’t judge the faith by those who do not practice it.

CaliLobo:

A common argument by Catholics, but how can Catholics claim 1.2 billion members when most of them don’t go to Mass, go to confession, have basic biblical knowledge, put too much devotion to Mary and the saints, or follow the teachings of the Vatican?

A good point. I think that at least within the USA, the number of “practicing” Catholics is much lower than the surveys suggest. Hence, there is no REAL “Catholic Vote” because the "Catholics that are counted include practicing and non-practicing persons who were baptized and/or confirmed as Catholics.

CaliLobo:

Speaking of Magisterium, isn’t the only reason why the Vatican politically opposes gay marriage rights, contraception, and abortion because of the Magisterium–simply because the pope and bishops say so?

Quite simply, the answer is “NO.” There are sound theological and moral reasons for opposing the redefinition of marriage, artificial contraception, and abortion. It’s not an arbitrary and capricious command, but the result of 2,000 years of contemplation of God’s natural and revealed truths.

CaliLobo:

And there’s nothing about holy tradition that can clue us in as to how to vote politically.

If you mean that there’s nothing in the bible or Tradition telling U.S. Catholics to vote for democrats or republicans, then you are correct. However, there are sound logical and reasonable teachings that underpin the moral concepts that should inform every Catholic’s vote. As Catholics, we’re obligated to vote responsibly by first informing our conscience and then looking at how particular candidates and laws square with the moral teachings.

CaliLobo:

So many books today by Protestants, like “Unchristian” by David Kinnaman, write about how young people are turned off by the Church’s meddling with politics, its anti-gay and anti-woman image, its behind-the-times image, and its judgmental image. These authors say that its imperative that the church rethink how it engages socially, politically, and ministerially, for it to win back the younger generation, who is turned off by organized religion in general.

So, what you are suggesting is that the Church turn away from what has been revealed by God as true. For what? To win a popularity contest? The Church does not exist to make people feel good about their personal choices. The Church exists to declare the truth. It cannot change this fundamental mission, even when the truths that it professes are unpopular. It did not do so when the Roman emperors persecuted the Church, and it will not do so when the pundits and the politicians ridicule it’s teachings as “backward” and “outdated.”

CaliLobo:

Isn’t the answer of the Catholic Church simple–just to change the Magisterium with respect to social issues to win back the younger generation, who want religion that can connect with their era and their culture?

At what cost? Souls will be lost if the Church changes it’s teaching to something other than the truth.

CaliLobo:

Isn’t Gospel preaching more important than politics??

Yes. So, it’s important to preach the true Gospel, even when it’s not popular. Your suggestion vaults “politically correct” preaching over the truth.

CaliLobo:

How would a Catholic parish welcome a woman who has had an abortion? How would a Catholic parish welcome someone who honestly believes he was born naturally gay?? How would a parish honestly be welcoming to these people if the Vatican politically opposes what they did in life??

Each of these people would be welcomed. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.

You seem to be confusing moral teaching with condemnation of persons. The Church is proscribing conduct in its teaching against abortion, artificial contraception, and same-sex marriage. It is not condemning people. Only God knows who is (and will be) in heaven and who is (or will be) in hell.

Peace,
Robert

 

[CaliLobo]

and, whose civil rights is the magisterium not now supporting?

if you are sincere in your desire to understand, it is important that you add details, examples or explanations to your accusations.

this post is meant for caliloco.

Rights of gays to marry and adopt children, rights of women to choose what to do with their bodies, rights of people to gain access to contraception through their employer (USA) or government (outside the USA), right to end life, etc.

Also I believe a poster asked who determines what civil rights are. Good question. Do rights really come from God, like US conservatives say? If so, then what gives us the right to deny rights to others? And if they don’t come from God, then why does it matter and why does the Catholic Church care so much?

Btw, the RCIA instructor told me that people confuse the Catholic Church with Catholic political organizations…

 

[meme1961]

Hello… I’m a Protestant from New Mexico.

Sorry this is long and unfocused, but my mind is in such conflict about all areas of Catholicism.

• The Vatican says we should vote against gay marriage and abortion rights. The Vatican says one cannot be pro-choice and Catholic. But I can always find another liberal parish that disagrees.

As with all large groups of people, some are there for no particular reason, some because it fits well with their true faith, some because of inertia or tradition, and some because they truly love it and believe in it.

The differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are many, but the most attractive part of being Catholic is that Catholicism is the truth. Not A truth, not one of many truths, not part of the truth; just the simple, whole and complete truth.

If a lay person, priest, or even the Holy Father himself disagrees with Church teaching (with the exception of the Pope speaking ex cathedra, of course) then they are wrong. Human beings being human beings, everybody gets tempted to interpret or rewrite Church teaching to suit themselves (God knows I have, many times!) but what the Church teaches has the authority of truth. Don’t get me wrong, the person in question may actually believe that what they are teaching is what the Church teaches, so don’t assume they are being malicious.

To choose a liberal parish that does not teach what the Church teaches is to, in effect, make up your own religion. This is one of the reasons I could no longer be Protestant: I wanted the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Years of “church shopping”, looking for the Protestant church that would be the best at catering to my sins, prejudices, flaws and my vision of what MY religion ought to be ended when I finally realized what I was doing: setting myself up as God and creating my own religion.

To answer a gay marriage bumper sticker that says “Did We Get to Vote on Your Marriage?!”, the Church answer boils down to: “No. You don’t vote on the Truth.”

• Why should the Church continue to hold such positions, then? Even when so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican? Even when social conservatism is dead now with the reelection of Obama, and gay marriage winning by popular vote in three US states? Isn’t the Church least effective when it meddles with politics the most? Doesn’t the fact that Jesus said “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword,” while also being called Prince of Peace, mean that Jesus never came for social and political peace, that he was never a political reformer?

If 99 percent of the people in the world believe that gravity doesn’t exist, should physicists change their position on it?

The Truth is the Truth. One could complain that the Church has not done as good a job catechizing its members as it should, but at the end of the day it doesn’t matter what the body thinks, the Truth is the Truth.

Politics in the United States has, unfortunately, grown all out of proportion to what it was designed to be. We were supposed to have a government of limited, specific powers. The idea that GOVERNMENT had the competency and the power to redefine marriage would have shocked the founding fathers to their very core.

So to answer your question: the Church has not intruded into politics. It is the other way around: politics has become the 9,000 pound gorilla that claims the power to do, control and define everything, and thus it is politics that has intruded on what is God’s.

• Since so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican, doesn’t that make the Church less effective? Shouldn’t the Catholic Church just tolerate political dissent like the Protestant churches, and not advocate any political position in particular? Why are abortion, gay marriage, cloning, euthanasia, and (I forgot the other) such immutable issues for Catholics? Yes I’ve heard natural law and moral issues. But aren’t civil rights important?

A “right” is a statement of moral philosophy. Unfortunately, far too many now use that word where they ought to properly use either entitlement, or the phrase “forced wealth redistribution.”

Used properly, rights are statements about the Truth, and the Truth is the province of the Church. That said, the Church should not be a temporal power the likes of a government. We’ve enough bad history with that to have learned better. So the Church teaches the truth, and a voter who cares about making a reasoned, moral choice; about passing laws that are just and right, will base their decision on the truth. Thus the Church influences voters who are involved in politics, as it should as the Teacher of Truth to Man.

Abortion, gay marriage, cloning and euthanasia are all non-negotiable items for Catholics because they violate the truth. Abortion and euthanasia are murder, and violate the truth of the sanctity of life, gay marriage is a logical impossibility (the phrase is analogous to describing the relationship you have with your children as “marriage”) and cloning is wrong in just so many ways I don’t have time to cover them all here. I recommend reading up on the Church’s arguments on these matters.

More after the break . . .

 

[meme1961]

continued:

• But then again, if the Catholic church were to liberalize politically or tolerate political dissent, what would it then offer that I can’t find in a Protestant church?? Protestant churches are okay with political diversity because they know it’s secondary to the main mission of preaching the Gospel. Politics doesn’t save us after all, right?

Many Protestant Churches have little or no philosophical grounding. Many are nearly purely Fideistic in nature, and thus are not competent to offer much in the way of apologetics. Translation: it is impossible to be the Teacher of Truth when one can’t provide a reasoned argument for that truth, and even more difficult to teach anything that is whole and complete when what you are teaching is solely about the spirit.

Don’t get me wrong: many of those same Churches have a part of the truth, and the teach it to the best of their ability, with love and a sincere heart. But the truth is holisitic; it encompasses not just faith, but also reason; not just the spirit, but the mind and body as well. There is a reason that Catholicism is so much more “physical” than Protestantism: it is because it is the WHOLE truth of Christianity, not just a part of it, and the whole encompasses the temporal; the natural; the physical.

• For every worship-related reason why the Catholic Church is so great I can always find a reason to counter that. For example, some love the liturgy, but others cannot get anything out of the old liturgical style of worship, because it’s just empty rituals to them. And why should communion be reserved to only Catholics, isn’t that offensive? And if confession is so important why do most people not do it, and live a life of “Catholic guilt”?

One gets out what one opens oneself too, and is willing to invest in. One can look constantly for new, shiny, bright, noisy entertainment, or one can reaffirm the most important, unchanging, eternal truths. One can watch with boredom as yet another priest waves around yet another chunk of bread, or one can be in nearly mind-numbing awe at being present at an actual miracle. One can skim through the Lord’s prayer by rote, or one can put one’s entire heart, mind and soul into it.

It’s up to each individual. Thus it is with the sacraments. You can go through the motions, or you can be invested in them all the way up to full engagement with the Holy and Eternal.

I’ve done that. Waved my hand vaguely over my heart while spitting out the phrase while actually thinking about where I wanted to go to dinner. I’ve also invested my whole self in it, and with tears in my eyes, a heart so full of love it nearly spills out of my chest, I’ve made the sign and said those words: “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

You can ignore your wife, give her perfunctory pecks on the cheek and do the bare minimum in your marriage, too.

• In general, why are Catholic churches so dead and boring? Isn’t the faith “more alive” in a Protestant church?

See above. But to say it a different way: The most powerful, most memorable, very BEST experience I’ve ever had was during Easter Mass when my sister and her husband were joining the Church. I LOVED EVERY SECOND of that Mass. And the Priest did the full thing, the long version, and I DID NOT WANT TO LEAVE at the end. Best memory of my life to date.

My youngest fell asleep about five minutes in. Mass is neither boring nor interesting. It is the person who allows themselves to be bored, or alternatively, invested.

I appreciate that Protestant churches have more entertaining music, are more welcoming, will say hi to you if you’re new, and will ask you to fill out a welcome card so they can get back to you! Even if it’s annoying and in your face, it at least shows they care! Where are the people that care in a Catholic church, besides the nuns (many which give me platitudes of advice when I talk to them)? I just get the sense that the Catholic faith is so personal, but why can’t Catholics get involved with the lives of others, form small groups, and talk about faith with each other? I get the sense that there’s a disconnect between priests and nuns and laypeople, because they live a life of cloistered study. Where are the laypeople that care and I can talk about faith with?

Ummm . . . you mean, like me? Here? Now?

Your average Catholic church has so much community stuff going on that it will have your brothers or sisters in it doing something as a group that you are more than welcome to join every day of the week, and most evenings too.

Seriously, you are looking out, when you should be looking in. God gave us free will and scrupulously avoids violating it. Reach out the least little bit, and he will receive you with glad cries and open arms. If in the next instant you decide to retreat, to be bored or uninvolved, and he will respect that.

Your choice. Hey, that’s what free will is, right?

• In general I just don’t see Catholics practicing their faith, the way Protestants do. The Catholic Church does have the edge intellectually, but why doesn’t that translate into a growing, vibrant church?

A growing, vibrant Church like, say, the Episcopal Church?

OK, that was a bit snarky, and I apologize. But in truth, the Church is growing, and as a vibrant and very lively thing. You just gotta learn to speak Catholic; learn to navigate a new situation.

And it wouldn’t hurt to study those Catholic writers who started out Protestant, as you did, but converted, as you are drawn to do.

Tim Staples and Scott Hahn, for example. Read what they have to say about their journey, and then listen to what they have to say. Exciting stuff, to my mind.

 

[etomaria]

Hello… I’m a Protestant from New Mexico.

Sorry this is long and unfocused, but my mind is in such conflict about all areas of Catholicism.

For the past few years I’ve been more and more intrigued by the Catholic Church. I like the intellectual edge it has, and its claim to be the original that Jesus founded. But the more I look into it and ask around, the more I get confused. And because of this confusion, it just makes it impossible to pull the trigger and convert. Here’s some reasons why:

• The Vatican says we should vote against gay marriage and abortion rights. The Vatican says one cannot be pro-choice and Catholic. But I can always find another liberal parish that disagrees.
• Why should the Church continue to hold such positions, then? Even when so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican? Even when social conservatism is dead now with the reelection of Obama, and gay marriage winning by popular vote in three US states? Isn’t the Church least effective when it meddles with politics the most? Doesn’t the fact that Jesus said “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword,” while also being called Prince of Peace, mean that Jesus never came for social and political peace, that he was never a political reformer?
• Since so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican, doesn’t that make the Church less effective? Shouldn’t the Catholic Church just tolerate political dissent like the Protestant churches, and not advocate any political position in particular? Why are abortion, gay marriage, cloning, euthanasia, and (I forgot the other) such immutable issues for Catholics? Yes I’ve heard natural law and moral issues. But aren’t civil rights important?
• But then again, if the Catholic church were to liberalize politically or tolerate political dissent, what would it then offer that I can’t find in a Protestant church?? Protestant churches are okay with political diversity because they know it’s secondary to the main mission of preaching the Gospel. Politics doesn’t save us after all, right?

Hi! I’m a Catholic from Alaska ;] (well, really, Michigan, the Bible Belt of the North, ha, but now Alaska!) ANYWAY! :] I think this part of your post has been adequately answered – the truth is the truth is the truth, and the Church’s job is to safeguard it, whether individuals choose to acknowledge it/live by it or not… And as far as your comparison of issues, I think the Church’s grouping for those five are “grave evils” and, as such, we are responsible for limiting (or eliminating) their spread and their damage… Only once those are in order (if that ever happens…) will other lesser issues come into play. This is why, much to the chagrin of my more-liberal-leaning friends, “vote solely abortion” when the economy seems so important… It comes down to which are more important in the big picture…

(continued…)

 

[etomaria]

• For every worship-related reason why the Catholic Church is so great I can always find a reason to counter that. For example, some love the liturgy, but others cannot get anything out of the old liturgical style of worship, because it’s just empty rituals to them. And why should communion be reserved to only Catholics, isn’t that offensive? And if confession is so important why do most people not do it, and live a life of “Catholic guilt”?

I don’t mean to marginalize, but these things seem like small potatoes to me. I’ve been through many, many phases (I was born into a Catholic family, baptized as a baby, and have grown up with it, been away from it, come back, wandered, and returned permanently, so that’s my background in very few words) – probably more of my time as a church-going Catholic has been spent not “getting much” out of mass, but I’ve come to realize that it’s not all about what I get out of it, it’s, at the very least, obeying what’s required of me by God, via the Church and precepts of Catholicism. So, even when the kids are distracting me throughout, atleast I’m there. Or that’s how I think of it. Nothing earth-shattering, I know, but I claim very little earth-shatteringness in my posts… I’m not the type for that. Anyway, point is, mass is not for the individuals present. It’s something commanded by Christ for the Body of Christ, the Church, ie us. As far as communion, I think that’s been addressed well, also. You have to not only recognize it as what it actually is, the real body and blood of Jesus, as well as be in a state of grace. A state of grace, for adults, is achieved only after receiving the sacrament of penance (I’m saying this all with two caveats: one – I’m talking for normal situations, no near-death things or any other bizarre circumstances where a priest isn’t available; two – if I’m wrong, I’ll gladly admit it if someone corrects me… I try and not post something as definitive unless I know, but it’s entirely possible that I’ve misinterpreted something…), which, in turn, is something available only to baptized Catholics, although THAT part’s available to anyone who is willing to commit themselves to the Truth taught by the Church… so, it’s exclusionary, but not really. There’s just a process.

As far as confession goes… eh. I went semi-regularly for a while, til I stopped, then didn’t go for several years, and then finally went back. I have all sorts of little reasons (didn’t want to, awful scheduling on the part of churches for open confession, forgetting, etc…), but it probably amounts to not making it a priority because I didn’t see it as the priority that it is. I’d guess many people are like this. That, and we tend to live too engrossed in our own lives, we don’t sit and ponder how we should be constantly ready should we die. Or we rationalize away the sin in our lives. Or we don’t see it, for lack of reflection. Or whatever else… Just one of those things, when we forget that our everyday life circumstances aren’t as important as they can easily become if unchecked.

(continued once more…)