C
cheezey
Guest
No. Not that that needed to be said… thanks.
Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons
- Status
Stephen168
New member
No it’s not.
In fact the Vatican was obeying canon law, which is what the Irish government is whining about.
Canon 983:
So back to the topic of Authority and how is is only found in Apostolic Succession.
C
cheezey
Guest
That’s what I’d like to understand. How does Apostolic Succession deal with accountability in general?
J
jmcrae
Guest
The whole point of Christianity, which is centred in Christ’s death on the Cross for our sins, is forgiveness and mercy; not punishment.
We are all accountable to God for our sins, and our goal in life is to become Saints, but most of us are still just Saints in training - and some aren’t even trying very hard, which is sad, but it is not the role of the Church to track them down and punish them - rather, the role of the Church is to forgive them in Christ’s name, teach them, and encourage them to do better.
C
cheezey
Guest
Understood and agreed. There are those who say that ALL of us need to do better. Including those who forgive.
J
joe370
Guest
Are you asking: who are those leaders (successors of the apostles) accountable to, when an injustice has been wrought by the hands of one of them?
L
lynnvinc
Guest
This is an interesting issue. I remember reading in my classical sociology course about some idea of Simmel – I think the book was Conflict or maybe something about groups – in which he talked about the Catholic Church could be so large because it allows for a wide variety of views, it is sort of elastic, while other groups that are too strict and straight-line tend to be small, because they turn off or kick out people who disagree with the straight and narrow.
There may be another point as to why there is such diversity, and that is the principles are “non-negotiable” – such as protection of human life and dignity for all people. But how we enact those principles and the best way to accomplish them can vary widely. Some may argue abortion should be illegal, and others might also be concerned about the dignity and life of the woman, as well as the unborn baby, and others might be against abortion, but concerned about making it illegal and pushing women out into the back alleys to get illegal abortions, sometimes resulting in the death of both the baby and the mother, others might want instead to address the root causes of abortion and employ a carrot rather than a stick approach.
Or the gay issue. The Church is against civil marriages altogether and considers them a serious sin, whether between straight or gay people. There is also the issue of gay people being able to get health care, insurance, tax breaks, and hospital visits that married heterosexual people have (the practical issues that would pretty much vanish, if our society really cared for everyone at the level they should). Some Catholics may not relish denying gay people various advantages that other people have, and may be aware of the violence & hatred against gays (which is surely not Christian), and may not understand how gay marriages threaten heterosexual marriages or the society. Others will point out how gay marriage allows and even celebrates the sin of homosexuality, which would be made into a double sin if gays were to be married civily or even in some other non-Catholic church – the sins of homosexuality and of non-Catholic marriage.
Then there may be another point. The idea might be that the Church should be as inclusive as possible and include and welcome both front-pew ethusiasts as well as back-pew uninterested snoozers and various levels of sinners. It happens in many people’s lives that they may go thru periods of more and period of less religiosity, more and less sin, and it is good to keep them there in the hopes that religiosity will awaken sooner than later.
Since I am totally pro-life – against abortion, the death penalty, civilians having (non-hunting) guns, rampant and brutal laissez-faire capitalism (as well as constrictive, coercive totalitarianism), and killing people thru environmental harms – I just love the Catholic Church to no end. I love JPII and BXVI and all they have said and written. I don’t disagree with them one iota. But it seems many Catholic disagree with them on one issue or another.
One might be demoralized by dealing with Catholics who disagree with themselves, but perhaps we are better off looking for the ideas that bind us together, than separate us. I love my Carmelite group, bec even tho I know there are climate change denialists there with whom I could get into an argument, we only talk about Carmelite saints and spirituality, and not about politics or other issues.
If a person is dabbling in Catholicism, I would suggesting looking to the saints and religious orders for inspiration. There will be at least one saint and one religious order that really clicks with such a person. That is where the true life is. One feels the works of the saints are alive; and nearly everything else they read is dead. However, one needs to search – others in the Church are not very helpful (the front-pewers are absorbed in prayer and the back-pewers are snoozing).
C
CaliLobo
Guest
eddie too:
eddie too:
eddie too:
About where we access the Truth, although the church might be the pillar of Truth in 1 Timothy 3, where does the church get the Truth that it teaches from?
I think it’s from the Holy Spirit (Jesus directly), if you consider passages like these:
1 Cor 2:
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Galatians 5:
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
eddie too:
I think Jesus’ prayer is answered yes, when we are one with Him in heaven.
It doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers. Just because we are 30000 denominations, it doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers. Denominations naturally arise because of the need to evangelize and relate the Gospel to a wide variety of people.
eddie too:
Yes, it’s important for Protestants to gather in church. Christianity isn’t a lone ranger religion. The disciples met as a group. Iron sharpens iron in Proverbs 27. “Let us not give up meeting together,” writes Paul in Hebrews 10.
eddie too:
Once again, just because we are many denominations, it doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers.
About where we access the Truth, although the church might be the pillar of Truth in 1 Timothy 3, where does the church get the Truth that it teaches from?
I think it’s from the Holy Spirit (Jesus directly), if you consider passages like these:
1 Cor 2:
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Galatians 5:
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
eddie too:
Once again, multitude of denominations doesn’t mean we are not one. Denominations will naturally arise because humans are all different. There were from the start many “denominations”; that’s why Paul wrote so many different letters to different churches.
I think Jesus’ prayer is answered yes, when we are one with Him in heaven.
C
CaliLobo
Guest
St Francis:
That’s quite easy. As Christians we have discerning minds.
From 1 Corinthians I cited earlier:
“The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”
So it means that true Christians are transformed (a “new creation”) and the Holy Spirit has entered in them, and therefore a sixth sense that naturally gives us a hint as to what is good and evil. You just know.
It’s like the age-old question, how do you know she’s the one? Answer: You just know.
Or how about John 15?
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
As you can see, true believers are those that abide in Him and bear fruit. Now what is the fruit?
Galatians 5:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.
**Notice I used my own Biblical research and not any Catechism or priestly guidance? Notice how I only cited the Bible?
That’s the knowledge you can get with Protestantism.** We don’t need a system of priests, traditions, and sacraments to know all this and gain a discerning mind.
We only need the Bible and the Holy Spirit to lead us to Truth, and just because Jesus may have passed on duties to a few priests, it does not confirm the validity of Apostolic Succession all the way up to 2013 AD, especially when Hebrews says that Jesus continues to hold the office of High Priest forever, and is the fulfillment of the Law.
Sorry to once again bring up evangelism. But as a Protestant that is a priority to me. Because Protestants who have gone on missions (including me) will tell you that thanks to the Catholic system of priests, traditions, and sacraments, people see Christianity as a series of meaningless, empty rituals and dogma, instead of the Spirit-led life that is taught in the Bible.
That is why Europe is so fallen, because people no longer care for the rituals and dogma. People there see Christian religion as meaningless dogmatic routine, rather than an individual relationship with God. And further, the continued trust in the Catholic Matrix, to continue following these rituals, has led to so many abuses I described in post #383.
Protestants, by reemphasizing Spirit-led guidance and an individual relationship with God (which is a Biblical concept), are the only hope to reevangelize today’s Europe. Protestants are growing by leaps and bounds in China and Africa. Protestants are even boldly going into the Middle East.
Kal2012:
Ask your local Hispanic American (if you live in America) and he or she will tell you that many Hispanics have fallen away from Catholicism because they have wisened up and realized how the CC has enslaved Native Americans and contributed to poverty by opposing reproductive rights, not to mention the empty rituals and lack of personal relationship with God described earlier. Notice the economic gap between Protestant America and Catholic Latin America (partly a function of birthrates).
I don’t hear about the CC being big in Africa; all I hear is the activity that Protestants are doing there, such as Saddleback’s (Rick Warren’s) ministry in Rwanda. Can you enlighten me?
St Francis, I take it that you want to now explore “How do we know that someone is a true believer?”
That’s quite easy. As Christians we have discerning minds.
From 1 Corinthians I cited earlier:
“The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”
So it means that true Christians are transformed (a “new creation”) and the Holy Spirit has entered in them, and therefore a sixth sense that naturally gives us a hint as to what is good and evil. You just know.
It’s like the age-old question, how do you know she’s the one? Answer: You just know.
Or how about John 15?
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
As you can see, true believers are those that abide in Him and bear fruit. Now what is the fruit?
Galatians 5:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.
**Notice I used my own Biblical research and not any Catechism or priestly guidance? Notice how I only cited the Bible?
That’s the knowledge you can get with Protestantism.** We don’t need a system of priests, traditions, and sacraments to know all this and gain a discerning mind.
We only need the Bible and the Holy Spirit to lead us to Truth, and just because Jesus may have passed on duties to a few priests, it does not confirm the validity of Apostolic Succession all the way up to 2013 AD, especially when Hebrews says that Jesus continues to hold the office of High Priest forever, and is the fulfillment of the Law.
Sorry to once again bring up evangelism. But as a Protestant that is a priority to me. Because Protestants who have gone on missions (including me) will tell you that thanks to the Catholic system of priests, traditions, and sacraments, people see Christianity as a series of meaningless, empty rituals and dogma, instead of the Spirit-led life that is taught in the Bible.
That is why Europe is so fallen, because people no longer care for the rituals and dogma. People there see Christian religion as meaningless dogmatic routine, rather than an individual relationship with God. And further, the continued trust in the Catholic Matrix, to continue following these rituals, has led to so many abuses I described in post #383.
Protestants, by reemphasizing Spirit-led guidance and an individual relationship with God (which is a Biblical concept), are the only hope to reevangelize today’s Europe. Protestants are growing by leaps and bounds in China and Africa. Protestants are even boldly going into the Middle East.
I don’t think so; news articles show that many in Latin America are either falling away from the CC or converting to Protestantism. Pentecostalism is big in Latin America.
Ask your local Hispanic American (if you live in America) and he or she will tell you that many Hispanics have fallen away from Catholicism because they have wisened up and realized how the CC has enslaved Native Americans and contributed to poverty by opposing reproductive rights, not to mention the empty rituals and lack of personal relationship with God described earlier. Notice the economic gap between Protestant America and Catholic Latin America (partly a function of birthrates).
I don’t hear about the CC being big in Africa; all I hear is the activity that Protestants are doing there, such as Saddleback’s (Rick Warren’s) ministry in Rwanda. Can you enlighten me?
Stephen168
New member
Where do you get your authority?
Stephen168
New member
Maybe you could actually respond to his post #389.
S
St_Francis
Guest
Well, Cali, I may be wrong, but it seems by these responses to my comments that you are not here to explore or learn about the Catholic Church. Your response reads like a complete promotion of the man-made Protestant “system.” If you have been proselytizing in Latin America where the field has already been plowed and sown for you by the promoters of the so-called Enlightenment thinking, I guess you thought you could come in here and use the same methods on us, but we actually know the Faith.
Cali**lobo, **I guess I should have guessed earlied you’d be a **wolf **–in sheep’s clothing. All that’s left is to pray for you.
Cali**lobo, **I guess I should have guessed earlied you’d be a **wolf **–in sheep’s clothing. All that’s left is to pray for you.
E
eddie_too
Guest
calilobo,
you repeat several times that having over 30,000 protestant churches is a fulfillment of Jesus prayer that His followers be one as He and His father are one. as i pointed out in that same reply to you, Jesus and His Father are One in every way. They share every facet of being equally and perfectly with each other and with the Holy Spirit.
Certainly for we human beings this type of union with God and with each other is completely achieved only in heaven.
however, knowing that does not mean we should not pursue such perfect union here on earth. it does not mean we should despair of uniting with each other in an ever better way on the continuum between no union and perfect union.
i cannot believe Jesus created His Church, with its hierarchy, with the intent of creating a flock that shared His life in only the most minimalist sense.
it defies my understanding to believe that Theresa of Calcutta understood Jesus no better than your average Catholic. or, to believe that St. Thomas Aquinas understood Jesus any better than the guy down the street whose total commitment to Jesus is only to acknowldege His existence and Him as Savior.
i wrote this before but perhaps you missed it. anyone who truly accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior cannot stop wanting to know more about Jesus. the more a person knows and believes about Jesus, the more that person becomes one with Jesus. the more people share the more united they are.
the idea that human beings can not be certain about who Jesus is, what Jesus did and what Jesus means is the OPPOSITE of what Jesus wants for His children.
the idea that all of the division in christianity is a result of the teachings and intentions of Jesus Christ is UNSUPPORTABLE and unbelievable.
i realize that you believe the divisions are a sign that the people creating them are doing what Jesus wanted for His people.
but, i do not find your simply rejecting all of history since the time of Jesus, all of the religious writing since the time of Jesus, the lives of all of the saints since the time of Jesus and all of the logic involved in the RCC’s understanding of Jesus and His teaching as irrelevant to be in the least bit persuasive.
if a person is going to reject everything that occurrred since the time of Jesus as possessing any intellectual significance in understanding who Jesus is and what His becoming man means, that same man should have an array of more persuasive information, logic and writings to provide those he is seeking to influence then what they already possess.
to point out that Jesus’ followers do not live up to His teachings perfectly is to stand on a platform that because all are sinners there is no reason to worry about what Jesus brought to us.
you appear to be stuck on the concept that when the believer says i believe in Jesus as my Savior the believer has no further obligation to grow in grace and understanding.
i reject that premise in its totalitly and challenge you to intellectually defend such a belief.
admittedly it makes life very easy for the person who holds that belief. especially since it means that no one can criticize or teach or oppose anything such a person does or says.
to Roman Catholics, when they say they believe in Jesus as their Savior, they are not saying therefore i am free to do whatever i like. they are saying as a consequence of my belief, i will make a sincere attempt to model my life after the teachings of Jesus using all of the instruments of support that Jesus provided to me.
it is impossible to model your life after the teachings of Jesus if no one knows for certain what those teachings are.
you repeat several times that having over 30,000 protestant churches is a fulfillment of Jesus prayer that His followers be one as He and His father are one. as i pointed out in that same reply to you, Jesus and His Father are One in every way. They share every facet of being equally and perfectly with each other and with the Holy Spirit.
Certainly for we human beings this type of union with God and with each other is completely achieved only in heaven.
however, knowing that does not mean we should not pursue such perfect union here on earth. it does not mean we should despair of uniting with each other in an ever better way on the continuum between no union and perfect union.
i cannot believe Jesus created His Church, with its hierarchy, with the intent of creating a flock that shared His life in only the most minimalist sense.
it defies my understanding to believe that Theresa of Calcutta understood Jesus no better than your average Catholic. or, to believe that St. Thomas Aquinas understood Jesus any better than the guy down the street whose total commitment to Jesus is only to acknowldege His existence and Him as Savior.
i wrote this before but perhaps you missed it. anyone who truly accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior cannot stop wanting to know more about Jesus. the more a person knows and believes about Jesus, the more that person becomes one with Jesus. the more people share the more united they are.
the idea that human beings can not be certain about who Jesus is, what Jesus did and what Jesus means is the OPPOSITE of what Jesus wants for His children.
the idea that all of the division in christianity is a result of the teachings and intentions of Jesus Christ is UNSUPPORTABLE and unbelievable.
i realize that you believe the divisions are a sign that the people creating them are doing what Jesus wanted for His people.
but, i do not find your simply rejecting all of history since the time of Jesus, all of the religious writing since the time of Jesus, the lives of all of the saints since the time of Jesus and all of the logic involved in the RCC’s understanding of Jesus and His teaching as irrelevant to be in the least bit persuasive.
if a person is going to reject everything that occurrred since the time of Jesus as possessing any intellectual significance in understanding who Jesus is and what His becoming man means, that same man should have an array of more persuasive information, logic and writings to provide those he is seeking to influence then what they already possess.
to point out that Jesus’ followers do not live up to His teachings perfectly is to stand on a platform that because all are sinners there is no reason to worry about what Jesus brought to us.
you appear to be stuck on the concept that when the believer says i believe in Jesus as my Savior the believer has no further obligation to grow in grace and understanding.
i reject that premise in its totalitly and challenge you to intellectually defend such a belief.
admittedly it makes life very easy for the person who holds that belief. especially since it means that no one can criticize or teach or oppose anything such a person does or says.
to Roman Catholics, when they say they believe in Jesus as their Savior, they are not saying therefore i am free to do whatever i like. they are saying as a consequence of my belief, i will make a sincere attempt to model my life after the teachings of Jesus using all of the instruments of support that Jesus provided to me.
it is impossible to model your life after the teachings of Jesus if no one knows for certain what those teachings are.
E
eddie_too
Guest
calilobo,
does it matter to a person’s eternal fate whether or not they are baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?
does it matter to a person’s eternal fate if they live a life of sexual license?
does it matter to a person’s eternal fate if they go around teaching people that their sexual behaviors will not impact the state of their souls?
can a person have life within in them if they do not eat the Body of Christ and drink the Blood of Christ?
if you choose to answer these questions, it would be helpful if you would support your answers with some source of authority if only your use of logic and reason. a source outside of yourself would be my preference.
you see, i place great importance upon the whole argument people provide to me in support of their intellectual positions. the arguments i find most persuasive use historical fact, the words of people who have been exemplary followers of the positions they espouse and an inherent consistency throughout their arguments.
you know of course that their are groups of people who believe they are following Jesus while they simultaneously say that Jesus teaches us that it is moral to deliberatley act to end thelives of human beings that have not yet been born.
there are groups of people who believe they are following Jesus while they simultaneously say that Jesus teaches us that moral sexual activity does not need to be confined to marriage.
there are groups (many, many groups) of people who believe they are following Jesus while they simultaneously say that Jesus teaches us that moral sexual activity may be pursued solely for self-pleasure.
there are groups of people who believe they are following Jesus while they simultaneously say that Jesus teaches us that it is moral for those who possess superior physical force to take the material goods and possessions of the weaker.
according to my definition of the word moral, for me it means human actions that will not be judged by God to merit punishment. immoral is the opposite of moral.
so, there are many groups and many individuals who are going around telling the world that Jesus made fornication, adultery, murder and theft moral. and, these many of these same people have formed various groups to tell the world that they possess the true teachings of Jesus Christ.
or do i have it wrong? are you in reality saying that neither the 30,000 protestant churchs nor the RCC know the true teachings of Jesus.
in fact, it is impossible to truly know what Jesus taught and what His life means beyond knowing that Jesus is the Savior of mankind. and, consequently, professing that belief and being saved means nothing beyond mouthing the words, creates no responsibilty or obligations on those who profess that belief and provides no guidance for how such a person should lead their lives?
does it matter to a person’s eternal fate whether or not they are baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?
does it matter to a person’s eternal fate if they live a life of sexual license?
does it matter to a person’s eternal fate if they go around teaching people that their sexual behaviors will not impact the state of their souls?
can a person have life within in them if they do not eat the Body of Christ and drink the Blood of Christ?
if you choose to answer these questions, it would be helpful if you would support your answers with some source of authority if only your use of logic and reason. a source outside of yourself would be my preference.
you see, i place great importance upon the whole argument people provide to me in support of their intellectual positions. the arguments i find most persuasive use historical fact, the words of people who have been exemplary followers of the positions they espouse and an inherent consistency throughout their arguments.
you know of course that their are groups of people who believe they are following Jesus while they simultaneously say that Jesus teaches us that it is moral to deliberatley act to end thelives of human beings that have not yet been born.
there are groups of people who believe they are following Jesus while they simultaneously say that Jesus teaches us that moral sexual activity does not need to be confined to marriage.
there are groups (many, many groups) of people who believe they are following Jesus while they simultaneously say that Jesus teaches us that moral sexual activity may be pursued solely for self-pleasure.
there are groups of people who believe they are following Jesus while they simultaneously say that Jesus teaches us that it is moral for those who possess superior physical force to take the material goods and possessions of the weaker.
according to my definition of the word moral, for me it means human actions that will not be judged by God to merit punishment. immoral is the opposite of moral.
so, there are many groups and many individuals who are going around telling the world that Jesus made fornication, adultery, murder and theft moral. and, these many of these same people have formed various groups to tell the world that they possess the true teachings of Jesus Christ.
or do i have it wrong? are you in reality saying that neither the 30,000 protestant churchs nor the RCC know the true teachings of Jesus.
in fact, it is impossible to truly know what Jesus taught and what His life means beyond knowing that Jesus is the Savior of mankind. and, consequently, professing that belief and being saved means nothing beyond mouthing the words, creates no responsibilty or obligations on those who profess that belief and provides no guidance for how such a person should lead their lives?
K
Kal2012
Guest
usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-04-27-catholic-numbers_N.htm
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=7022
The Catholic church is on the rise in Africa and Asia (oops on my part).
ucanews.com/news/check-asia-has-fastest-growing-catholic-population/44926
(Regardless, my parish supports a mission in Guatemala. That’s probably why I had Latin America on the brain. My RCIA leader talks about the mission all the time.)
As discussed before, Catholics don’t tend to issue press releases about everything they do. It’s about the mission, not the individual parish or priest. Catholics just don’t go “look at me! look at what I’m doing!” Hence, I’m very thankful for communities like this and google.
I get that people may find the mass and rituals “boring”, but if you (as an individual) don’t put any effort into having a relationship with Jesus, then how can you expect to find one at any church…let alone the Catholic church? Changing your church doesn’t always equate having a (better) relationship with Christ. A priest is there to guide and teach the parish. A priest can’t make people believe. Individuals have to do that for themselves.
One of the Catholic churches in town sings the contemporary Christian rock songs off the screen just like the protestant churches. Which is why I don’t go there! If I was interested in a Protestant worship experience, then I’d stay a Protestant.
E
eddie_too
Guest
calilobo,
if a person is closed to the idea that being saved requires more from the one being saved than affirming Jesus as his or her Savior, that person is not ready to become a Roman Catholic.
until people open themselves to the idea that faith in Jesus as their Savior brings a whole new life to them and that this new life is a gradual transformation away from sin and into a world of light and grace, they are not ready to become a Roman Catholic.
if a person is closed to the idea that being saved requires more from the one being saved than affirming Jesus as his or her Savior, that person is not ready to become a Roman Catholic.
until people open themselves to the idea that faith in Jesus as their Savior brings a whole new life to them and that this new life is a gradual transformation away from sin and into a world of light and grace, they are not ready to become a Roman Catholic.
E
eddie_too
Guest
calilobo,
within the true Church there lies a consistency of definition and meaning.
RCCs have spent nearly two thousand years better defining and understanding the words they use in discussing Jesus, His life and His teachings. that is where the consistency of definition and meaning originates, in that nearly two thousand years of discussion and prayer.
without consistency in definition and meaning there can be no effective or efficacious communication between the people trying to communicate. such people (those who have not come to agreement on definiton and meaning) are using the same words but applying different meanings to those same words.
within the true Church there lies a consistency of definition and meaning.
RCCs have spent nearly two thousand years better defining and understanding the words they use in discussing Jesus, His life and His teachings. that is where the consistency of definition and meaning originates, in that nearly two thousand years of discussion and prayer.
without consistency in definition and meaning there can be no effective or efficacious communication between the people trying to communicate. such people (those who have not come to agreement on definiton and meaning) are using the same words but applying different meanings to those same words.
E
eddie_too
Guest
calilobo,
the first requirement of effective communication is to agree to a definition of terms.
the RCC recognizes this requirement and for the most part, through centuries of discussion about meanings and definitions have come to agreement. becoming a member of the RCC is not only about being saved but it is about among other things agreeing to what the definitons of words are.
it is not really fair or smart to criticize anyone until you have a clear understanding of the definitions of the terms they use in speaking and communicating.
while it is not humanly possible to have every definition and meaning clearly and completely understood by every member of the RCC, all mentally capable members of the RCC can know the accepted definitions of the most important words such as Salvation, Trinity, God, eternity, heaven, hell, apostle, Church, Sacrament, Incarnation, Immaculate Conception, Redemption, Resurrection, final judgment, sin, grace, soul, angel, saint, prayer, etc., etc.
the current state of the RCC is the result of hundreds of years of thousands of men and women of high intelligence, expansive knowledge and considerable holiness developing and advancing human understanding of what they received from Jesus.
it would be wrong to dismiss the results of their efforts without spending a tremendous amount of time to first learn and understand them.
considering that at the present time there are individuals within the RCC that have spent their entire lives acquiring an in-depth knowledge and understanding of only a few parts of the whole of the Church’s teachings, for example scripture scholars who have specialized in the writings of St. John the Apostle, it seems presumptuous for anyone to reject the RCC because they do not understand a particular teaching or how that particular teaching impacts the whole teaching.
what has happened to the teachings and understandings of christianity over the last two millenium is not unlike what has happened to science. what i mean is that where at one point in the history of science it was possible for one person to know all the accepted knowledge and understanding of then current science, now as a result of centuries of exploration and learning scientists are being forced to specialize. there is much that the most knowledgable physicist does not know or understand about biology and even within the field of biology there are branches such as microbiloogy, genetics, etc.
so, it should not seem offputting or strange that the body of Christ has grown in a manner similar to the manner that all knowledge and understanding sought by serious people who seek to better know and understand the world around them grows, i.e. science.
the first requirement of effective communication is to agree to a definition of terms.
the RCC recognizes this requirement and for the most part, through centuries of discussion about meanings and definitions have come to agreement. becoming a member of the RCC is not only about being saved but it is about among other things agreeing to what the definitons of words are.
it is not really fair or smart to criticize anyone until you have a clear understanding of the definitions of the terms they use in speaking and communicating.
while it is not humanly possible to have every definition and meaning clearly and completely understood by every member of the RCC, all mentally capable members of the RCC can know the accepted definitions of the most important words such as Salvation, Trinity, God, eternity, heaven, hell, apostle, Church, Sacrament, Incarnation, Immaculate Conception, Redemption, Resurrection, final judgment, sin, grace, soul, angel, saint, prayer, etc., etc.
the current state of the RCC is the result of hundreds of years of thousands of men and women of high intelligence, expansive knowledge and considerable holiness developing and advancing human understanding of what they received from Jesus.
it would be wrong to dismiss the results of their efforts without spending a tremendous amount of time to first learn and understand them.
considering that at the present time there are individuals within the RCC that have spent their entire lives acquiring an in-depth knowledge and understanding of only a few parts of the whole of the Church’s teachings, for example scripture scholars who have specialized in the writings of St. John the Apostle, it seems presumptuous for anyone to reject the RCC because they do not understand a particular teaching or how that particular teaching impacts the whole teaching.
what has happened to the teachings and understandings of christianity over the last two millenium is not unlike what has happened to science. what i mean is that where at one point in the history of science it was possible for one person to know all the accepted knowledge and understanding of then current science, now as a result of centuries of exploration and learning scientists are being forced to specialize. there is much that the most knowledgable physicist does not know or understand about biology and even within the field of biology there are branches such as microbiloogy, genetics, etc.
so, it should not seem offputting or strange that the body of Christ has grown in a manner similar to the manner that all knowledge and understanding sought by serious people who seek to better know and understand the world around them grows, i.e. science.
J
JuantheTuba
Guest
Even when these denominations have different beliefs that outright contradict each other?
Why would the Holy Spirit guide one group of people one way and another the other way?
I suppose Our Lord said “If you love me, keep my commadments… unless they conflict with the prevailing attitudes of the age, your cultural beliefs, personal understanding etc. Then you can tweak them!”
Doesn’t it mean anything to you, that throughout the ages the Catholic Church has been able to transcend many cultural boundaries without compromising the Faith? Middle East, India, Europe, Asia(Philippines, Japan), Africa and Latin America?
E
eddie_too
Guest
calilobo,
any of the negative observations you have made about the RCC can be applied with complete honesty and to a much greater degree in every application of protestantism.
if you can think of one negative you have stated about the RCC that cannot be equally applied to all of the protestant sects, now is the time to do so.
surely you can understand that this makes every single negative comment or obsevation you have made about the RCC meaningless when the discussion turns to what current group claiming to be evangelizing as Jesus wanted is most faithful to Jesus.
this fact renders all of your negative comments about the RCC completely pointless.
so, what do you have in your evangelization that i, as a RC, do not have?
we members here, have written thousands of words describing what the RCC has that none of the protestant sects have.
can you name even one thing that the protestants sects have that i am missing by reason of my being a RC?
even one thing? can you rise to this challenge? can you leave all of your negativism (than ironically you must believe is what Christ directs you to bring to the world, the negativism that is) behind and explain why anyone would want to be a protestant?
realize that anytime your response to this question incudes the word “more” or the word “better”, you are simultaneously acknowledging the RCC possesses that trait or gift and that it is not unique to protestantism.
name one thing, anything, that i can only get by being a protestant?
that is your challenge. if you cannot do it, then humbly admit you cannot and either become a member of the RCC or leave us alone because you are wasting your time with your fingerpointing, criticisms and accusations.
any of the negative observations you have made about the RCC can be applied with complete honesty and to a much greater degree in every application of protestantism.
if you can think of one negative you have stated about the RCC that cannot be equally applied to all of the protestant sects, now is the time to do so.
surely you can understand that this makes every single negative comment or obsevation you have made about the RCC meaningless when the discussion turns to what current group claiming to be evangelizing as Jesus wanted is most faithful to Jesus.
this fact renders all of your negative comments about the RCC completely pointless.
so, what do you have in your evangelization that i, as a RC, do not have?
we members here, have written thousands of words describing what the RCC has that none of the protestant sects have.
can you name even one thing that the protestants sects have that i am missing by reason of my being a RC?
even one thing? can you rise to this challenge? can you leave all of your negativism (than ironically you must believe is what Christ directs you to bring to the world, the negativism that is) behind and explain why anyone would want to be a protestant?
realize that anytime your response to this question incudes the word “more” or the word “better”, you are simultaneously acknowledging the RCC possesses that trait or gift and that it is not unique to protestantism.
name one thing, anything, that i can only get by being a protestant?
that is your challenge. if you cannot do it, then humbly admit you cannot and either become a member of the RCC or leave us alone because you are wasting your time with your fingerpointing, criticisms and accusations.
- Status