Intrigued by Catholicism, but just can't convert for many reasons

[joe370]

CaliLobo;10291734]It doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers. Just because we are 30000 denominations, it doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers. Denominations naturally arise because of the need to evangelize and relate the Gospel to a wide variety of people.

Question I could not answer as a former protestant:

Jesus said: “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and** if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
**
In other words, they are to be set outside the fellowship of the community aka the church. If the 30,000 denominations comprise the one Body of believers, then how could the following command of Jesus be implemented: if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector?

If you are right then all one has to do, upon being set outside the church, is select another church; after all there are 30,000 to choose from - right?

Paul cites a similar example regarding fellowship: “It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?”

 

[jmcrae]

It doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers. Just because we are 30000 denominations, it doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers. Denominations naturally arise because of the need to evangelize and relate the Gospel to a wide variety of people.

Actually, the most common reason for division is dissension and disagreement within the denomination. I have actually never heard of a new denomination coming into existence for the purpose of evangelizing a new kind of people. The only divisions I’ve ever heard of were the result of members of a congregation forming their own separate community because of something they disagreed with in the original community out of which they split.

It was the same in the beginning of Protestantism - Simons Mennos split from Martin Luther, because he disagreed to the point of physical violence with Luther on the Sacraments; not because there were some kind of special Germans who needed his style of leadership. Thus, within a decade of the Reformation, there were two forms of Protestantism - and they’ve been dividing like that ever since, just like bacteria in a petri dish.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

None of these fruits are found in the divisions of Protestantism - instead, it is a never-ending cycle of arguing, violence, and bitter tears.

Once again, multitude of denominations doesn’t mean we are not one. Denominations will naturally arise because humans are all different. There were from the start many “denominations”; that’s why Paul wrote so many different letters to different churches.

St. Paul wrote so many letters to so many different Churches because he had authority from the Apostles to tell all of them what to do and how to behave - none of them were independent organizations with separate leadership.

Furthermore, he did not give different kinds of Christianity to each; he gave them all the same Gospel message, and corrected their particular errors.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Once again, multitude of denominations doesn’t mean we are not one. Denominations will naturally arise because humans are all different. There were from the start many “denominations”; that’s why Paul wrote so many different letters to different churches.

The reason Paul wrote the letters was to correct them, to correct abuses–to keep them all unified in one belief as passed on by the apostles. These were not different denominations with their own set of beliefs–they were part of a single unified church and Paul was making sure they didn’t become a separate denomination.

Peace,
Mark

 

[vsedriver]

So it means that true Christians are transformed (a “new creation”) and the Holy Spirit has entered in them, and therefore a sixth sense that naturally gives us a hint as to what is good and evil. You just know.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you saying that Christians can know what is a sin and what isn’t by inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

We only need the Bible and the Holy Spirit to lead us to Truth,

if that were so then why do some churches believe the Lord’s supper is a symbol and some believe it is his body and blood? Both can’t be right. Some Christians say abortion is a sin, some do not. Some say Gay marriage is OK, some do not. There is only one Truth and then there are those who would like the Truth to suit them instead of them suiting the Truth.

Sorry to once again bring up evangelism. But as a Protestant that is a priority to me. Because Protestants who have gone on missions (including me) will tell you that thanks to the Catholic system of priests, traditions, and sacraments, people see Christianity as a series of meaningless, empty rituals and dogma, instead of the Spirit-led life that is taught in the Bible.

Some will always go for what’s new and unusual, especially if they lack a good education in their faith. Others who have honestly explored the CC find a richness in the rituals and dogma.

That is why Europe is so fallen, because people no longer care for the rituals and dogma. People there see Christian religion as meaningless dogmatic routine, rather than an individual relationship with God. And further, the continued trust in the Catholic Matrix, to continue following these rituals, has led to so many abuses I described in post #383.

Europe fell when society changed from a focus on God to a focus on self. That change is happening in the USA too.

Protestants, by reemphasizing Spirit-led guidance and an individual relationship with God (which is a Biblical concept), are the only hope to reevangelize today’s Europe. Protestants are growing by leaps and bounds in China and Africa. Protestants are even boldly going into the Middle East.

The Catholic Church is also growing by leaps and bounds in Asia and Africa.

CC has enslaved Native Americans and contributed to poverty by opposing reproductive rights,

so it’s babies that causes poverty and not a lack of jobs, education, or opportunity?

not to mention the empty rituals and lack of personal relationship with God described earlier.

the rituals are not empty, they are rich in theology. You can’t get any more personal with God than partaking of the Eucharist.

Notice the economic gap between Protestant America and Catholic Latin America (partly a function of birthrates).

way off the mark. How about oppressive governments, lack of education, lack of economic development, all of which prevent people from bettering themselves. I know families of 10, 12, and 14 kids who worked their way out of poverty. so it isn’t babies who keep you poor.

I don’t hear about the CC being big in Africa; all I hear is the activity that Protestants are doing there, such as Saddleback’s (Rick Warren’s) ministry in Rwanda. Can you enlighten me?

The Catholic Church doesn’t really blow her own horn, she’s too busy saving souls.

 

[Kal2012]

Here’s an article I found on ritual and its benefits.

emergingchurch.info/reflection/jeremyfletcher/index.htm

For instance, I’m going through RCIA. At the beginning, I was very resistant to the idea of having to take a months long class to be a Catholic. I came into the class knowing a lot, so I didn’t think I’d get much out of it.

For me, it’s been the process of fulfilling the rites really brings it home that becoming a Catholic isn’t like becoming a Baptist.

Going through the Rite of Welcome was awe-inspiring for me because when you knock on the sanctuary doors, you realize that for thousands of years, other seekers have done the same thing in other churches throughout the world. My husband was there and he had gone through the same ritual when he converted. It’s hard to describe how amazing it was to know that I was following the path of converts throughout the ages, since the death of Christ. You just don’t get that kind of thing in contemporary American culture.

Getting the car keys at 16 just wasn’t as great as what I’m doing now.

Sometimes fighting with the ritual and doing it anyway actually helps people develop their faith more. Getting rid of rituals takes away a huge part of the community “us”-ness. This is what we do because we are…there’s connection and fulfillment in that.

I don’t get how Protestants feel connected to other Protestants given that you don’t share the same Bible readings each week. Lately, it’s been about the “message series that you just don’t want to miss.” If I really shouldn’t miss it, then why is it only being taught at this one church??? You don’t share the same ideas about communion or the even the same ‘brand’’ name or theology. That’s why being a Protestant just turns me off. I crave the ritual and community and connection. Sadly, people born into the faith don’t realize that what they have is unusual for a lot of people.

 

[eddie_too]

i have found the comments written in response to calilobo by lifetime catholics, catholic converts and those undergoing conversion in RCIA to be inspiring and motivating. i thank all of you for what you have given me.

the converts in particular have given me insights in to my faith that i could not find anywhere else.

i guess it just goes to prove that almighty God can use anything, even apparent anti-catholic bigotry such as calilobo’s to advance His plan aqnd share His grace.

thank you all again from the bottom of my heart.

 

[meme1961]

One more thing, I have to reply to this:

Sorry, but that’s a horrible, ignorant stereotype! There are many gays that are in committed relationships. Why did so many gays get married in the states where it’s legal?

Not at all. In actuality, very few got “married” (leaving aside the simple fact that they can’t GET married), compared to the number of people claimed to “be gay”.

The average length of a so called “committed, homosexual relationship” is about 2 and one half years. Whether legal changes lengthen this remains to be seen, but one thing is for sure:

The lawyers are going to have more divorce business now, thanks to this legal mistake.

 

[meme1961]

**Notice I used my own Biblical research and not any Catechism or priestly guidance? Notice how I only cited the Bible?

That’s the knowledge you can get with Protestantism.** We don’t need a system of priests, traditions, and sacraments to know all this and gain a discerning mind.

We only need the Bible and the Holy Spirit to lead us to Truth, and just because Jesus may have passed on duties to a few priests, it does not confirm the validity of Apostolic Succession all the way up to 2013 AD, especially when Hebrews says that Jesus continues to hold the office of High Priest forever, and is the fulfillment of the Law.

Actually, your entire response was founded in Tradition, the Authority of Mother Church, and priestly guidance. That is what parts of the New Testament are: Records of Priestly Guidance, and Apostolic Tradition. Even the Bible you claim as your ultimate authority tells you you are wrong.

The question that a Protestant can never answer without lapsing into utter Fideism is “Where does the Bible come from, what makes it an authority, and why is your interpretation correct, while mine is not?”

Answer: God’s Church. Truth has the ultimate authority. You wouldn’t have a Bible if not for Holy Mother Church, and you only know what it means because of her.

 

[Kal2012]

The lawyers are going to have more divorce business now, thanks to this legal mistake.

 

[meme1961]

Yeah that’s true with respect to church history, and even with whether there is a God, or whether religion is a good thing. Shall we start from the beginning and ask, how are we sure there is a God? And how are we sure religion is a good thing; isn’t it dangerous to “dive in” to quote Steven Curtis Chapman, and throw away your “reason” for faith, to quote the atheists?

Catholicism is a religion of both faith and reason, in equal measure and proper relationship. There can be no reason, absent faith, and faith absent reason is just self-delusion.

The proof of the existence of God is an act of reason, not faith. Consider the five ways.

As for Atheism: it is the most ignorant and irrational of all the minor religions. Your average atheist knows absolutely zip about theology or philosophy, and doesn’t even know the limits of the one philosophical system they do admit to.

 

[aragonjohn1]

Hello… I’m a Protestant from New Mexico.

Sorry this is long and unfocused, but my mind is in such conflict about all areas of Catholicism.

For the past few years I’ve been more and more intrigued by the Catholic Church. I like the intellectual edge it has, and its claim to be the original that Jesus founded. But the more I look into it and ask around, the more I get confused. And because of this confusion, it just makes it impossible to pull the trigger and convert. Here’s some reasons why:

• The Vatican says we should vote against gay marriage and abortion rights. The Vatican says one cannot be pro-choice and Catholic. But I can always find another liberal parish that disagrees.
• Why should the Church continue to hold such positions, then? Even when so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican? Even when social conservatism is dead now with the reelection of Obama, and gay marriage winning by popular vote in three US states? Isn’t the Church least effective when it meddles with politics the most? Doesn’t the fact that Jesus said “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword,” while also being called Prince of Peace, mean that Jesus never came for social and political peace, that he was never a political reformer?
• Since so many Catholics disagree with the Vatican, doesn’t that make the Church less effective? Shouldn’t the Catholic Church just tolerate political dissent like the Protestant churches, and not advocate any political position in particular? Why are abortion, gay marriage, cloning, euthanasia, and (I forgot the other) such immutable issues for Catholics? Yes I’ve heard natural law and moral issues. But aren’t civil rights important?
• But then again, if the Catholic church were to liberalize politically or tolerate political dissent, what would it then offer that I can’t find in a Protestant church?? Protestant churches are okay with political diversity because they know it’s secondary to the main mission of preaching the Gospel. Politics doesn’t save us after all, right?
• For every worship-related reason why the Catholic Church is so great I can always find a reason to counter that. For example, some love the liturgy, but others cannot get anything out of the old liturgical style of worship, because it’s just empty rituals to them. And why should communion be reserved to only Catholics, isn’t that offensive? And if confession is so important why do most people not do it, and live a life of “Catholic guilt”?
• In general, why are Catholic churches so dead and boring? Isn’t the faith “more alive” in a Protestant church? I appreciate that Protestant churches have more entertaining music, are more welcoming, will say hi to you if you’re new, and will ask you to fill out a welcome card so they can get back to you! Even if it’s annoying and in your face, it at least shows they care! Where are the people that care in a Catholic church, besides the nuns (many which give me platitudes of advice when I talk to them)? I just get the sense that the Catholic faith is so personal, but why can’t Catholics get involved with the lives of others, form small groups, and talk about faith with each other? I get the sense that there’s a disconnect between priests and nuns and laypeople, because they live a life of cloistered study. Where are the laypeople that care and I can talk about faith with?
• In general I just don’t see Catholics practicing their faith, the way Protestants do. The Catholic Church does have the edge intellectually, but why doesn’t that translate into a growing, vibrant church? All I see is a moribund, boring church with inconsistency in the beliefs among members. In fact, Catholics who convert to Protestantism complain that the Catholic Church is just a bunch of rote rituals with no meaning. Maybe they need to stop sticking to tradition just to stick to it, adopt more contemporary worship, be more welcoming, and not be so politically involved, so they can convert the younger generation??

Sorry this is long and unfocused, but my mind is in such conflict about all areas of Catholicism. The Catholic Church has such potential, but right now Protestant churches have the edge in how “alive” their faith is. I just don’t see Catholics stepping up. Why don’t the bishops just excommunicate people left and right anymore? I do need to figure out where my faith is gonna turn next, so I appreciate your help.

1. Jesus is perfect you usually encounter sinners
2. NO

Hope this helps
Peace and God bless

 

[guanophore]

It doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers. Just because we are 30000 denominations, it doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers.

The Body of Christ of course, is One. He knows those who are His, and are united to Him, from among all the denominations. However, Jesus did not intend for there to be such divisions.

1 Cor 1:10-11
Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be **no divisions **among you, but that you be united in the **same mind **and the same purpose.

There is no room for “doctrinal distinctives”.

Gal 5:18-21
8 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Denominations naturally arise because of the need to evangelize and relate the Gospel to a wide variety of people.

Nonsense! The One Church spread the One Gospel all over the known world to every name and culture they could reach, and yet the Church was undivided.

Denominations are caused by changing doctrine, and departing from what the Apostles believed and taught, in favor of new innovations.

Once again, just because we are many denominations, it doesn’t mean we are not one body of believers.

It means there are serious wounds to unity, which are inappropriate, and disobedient to Jesus’ commands.

About where we access the Truth, although the church might be the pillar of Truth in 1 Timothy 3, where does the church get the Truth that it teaches from?

Jesus placed it there, and it is infallibly protected by the Holy Spirit.

John 16:12-15
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Jesus made this promise to the Truth, not those who have departed from her.

I think it’s from the Holy Spirit (Jesus directly), if you consider passages like these:

1 Cor 2:
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 **What we have received **is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But **we have **the mind of Christ.

The Apostle here is speaking of himself, and those in unity with the Apostles. That includes the Bishops appointed the Apostles, and their successors. It applies only to those who have the “same mind” as the Apostles.

Once again, multitude of denominations doesn't mean we are not one.

It does.

Unity is determined by adherance to the Truth. Those who depart from the Truth suffer wounds to unity. Denominations are factions that are created by differences of doctrine and practice. These differences are sometimes diametrically opposed, so that it is not possible to have unity in such a situation.

 

[guanophore]

Denominations will naturally arise because humans are all different. There were from the start many “denominations”; that’s why Paul wrote so many different letters to different churches.

This is false, Cali. Yes, humans are different, but we are made one by our unity of Spirit. When humans give in to the flesh, they no longer walk by the Spirit, and divisions occur. We have a choice. We do not need to serve the desires of the flesh.

Paul wrote to ONE CHURCH that existed in many geographic places.

1 Tim 1:3
I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine

But as for you, teach what is consistent with sound doctrine.15 Titus 2:1
Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authorityTitus 2:15

The Apostles entrusted the One Faith to their successors, the Bishops, and charged them sternly to teach nothing that departed from it.

Eph 4:5
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

One Church, one doctrine.

I think Jesus’ prayer is answered yes, when we are one with Him in heaven.

True that, but He intends for it to be answered yes NOW!

John 17:20-24

20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21** that they may all be one**. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

To denominate takes away from unity.

 

[joe370]

CaliLobo

Hey Cal. In your opinion, what should the correct criterion or criteria be for selecting a church to belong to in a world with so many autonomous churches?

 

[CaliLobo]

Well, Cali, I may be wrong, but it seems by these responses to my comments that you are not here to explore or learn about the Catholic Church. Your response reads like a complete promotion of the man-made Protestant “system.”…
Cali**lobo, **I guess I should have guessed earlied you’d be a **wolf **–in sheep’s clothing. All that’s left is to pray for you.

I honestly attempted to answer your question about how to determine if someone is a nonbeliever. Every time I make a meritable point, it seems like I get ad hominem attacks–this time as a “lobo” in sheep’s clothing.

Yes I segued into evangelization. But even there I made a valid point about why Europe is so fallen, and now you think I’m proselytizing. I apologize if you felt uncomfortable but the Catholic-Protestant debate stirs up strong emotions among people (after all, there’s an open war in Ireland still). There are valid reasons why people remain Protestant. I can assure you I’m not knowingly proselytizing, since I know that none of you wish to convert.
eddie too:

i wrote this before but perhaps you missed it. anyone who truly accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior cannot stop wanting to know more about Jesus. the more a person knows and believes about Jesus, the more that person becomes one with Jesus. the more people share the more united they are.

the idea that human beings can not be certain about who Jesus is, what Jesus did and what Jesus means is the OPPOSITE of what Jesus wants for His children.

the idea that all of the division in christianity is a result of the teachings and intentions of Jesus Christ is UNSUPPORTABLE and unbelievable.

i realize that you believe the divisions are a sign that the people creating them are doing what Jesus wanted for His people.

but, i do not find your simply rejecting all of history since the time of Jesus, all of the religious writing since the time of Jesus, the lives of all of the saints since the time of Jesus and all of the logic involved in the RCC’s understanding of Jesus and His teaching as irrelevant to be in the least bit persuasive.

I agree that one wouldn’t want to stop knowing more about Jesus, but it’s not possible to know everything; the CC teaches that many things are mysteries.

Neither do Protestants reject ALL of the history. Protestants do cite some early saints; a common example is St Francis of Assisi (preach by words only when necessary). Luther and Calvin did not reject ALL of the history.

Sadly, I agree that denomination is also a result of sin. But that does not validate the Catholic claim.
eddie too:

so, there are many groups and many individuals who are going around telling the world that Jesus made fornication, adultery, murder and theft moral. and, these many of these same people have formed various groups to tell the world that they possess the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

or do i have it wrong? are you in reality saying that neither the 30,000 protestant churchs nor the RCC know the true teachings of Jesus.

Sadly, the Holy Spirit can tell both of us that some of these denominations are not following Christ. The problem is, I’m afraid Catholicism might be one of them, because of the problems with the Magisterium I described earlier. After all, all churches think they have the protection and guidance of God to not teach error…
eddie too:

if a person is closed to the idea that being saved requires more from the one being saved than affirming Jesus as his or her Savior, that person is not ready to become a Roman Catholic.

until people open themselves to the idea that faith in Jesus as their Savior brings a whole new life to them and that this new life is a gradual transformation away from sin and into a world of light and grace, they are not ready to become a Roman Catholic…

the first requirement of effective communication is to agree to a definition of terms.

the RCC recognizes this requirement and for the most part, through centuries of discussion about meanings and definitions have come to agreement. becoming a member of the RCC is not only about being saved but it is about among other things agreeing to what the definitons of words are.

Not disputing this. No Protestant church worth my tithe would say “faith only”, although they may dance around the issue for fear of teaching “works-based”. I agree we need consistent definitions.
eddie too:

name one thing, anything, that i can only get by being a protestant?

1. Assurance of salvation as long as one continues to repent. (HUGE reason)
2. A direct, personal relationship to God, without the ritualistic, dogmatic, guilt-mongering system of traditions and sacraments (which I believe has ruined religion for many worldwide, like I said earlier).
3. Flexibility of worship style. You can shout and dance, and be loud to express your joy
4. Flexibility of political belief (no intangible issues; you are not in scandal for disagreeing)
5. Flexibility on anything the Bible is not clear on (for example, contraception)
6. Universal sainthood and priesthood
7. Alcohol and tobacco are taboo. Emphasis on resisting drugs. Cursing is taboo.
8. Relevance, by updating its messages with the times.
9. Ministries catering to children, married, singles, college students
10. Small group Bible studies and discipleship groups
11. More teaching, and not just to kids. Sunday sermons that actually teach (instead of ten minute homilies). That’s why even Catholics visit Protestant churches.
12. Christian music and pop culture (if you choose to partake)
13. No purgatory (Biblical basis is spurious)
14. No prayers for the dead (Biblical basis is spurious)
15. No Marian or saintly devotion (it doesn’t save anyone; living Protestants pray for each other, which is a great expression of love)
16. Need I say more?

 

[joe370]

, because of the problems with the Magisterium I described earlier. After all, all churches think they have the protection and guidance of God to not teach error…

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that you are right. With that said, which church founded by Jesus in the 1st century, in the world today, do you believe is correctly following Christ, in terms of doctrinal truth?

 

[CaliLobo]

Jesus said: “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and** if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.**

Exactly. Protestants aren’t afraid to say that those who do not follow aren’t true believers.

jmcrae:

It was the same in the beginning of Protestantism - Simons Mennos split from Martin Luther, because he disagreed to the point of physical violence with Luther on the Sacraments; not because there were some kind of special Germans who needed his style of leadership. Thus, within a decade of the Reformation, there were two forms of Protestantism - and they’ve been dividing like that ever since, just like bacteria in a petri dish…
None of these fruits are found in the divisions of Protestantism - instead, it is a never-ending cycle of arguing, violence, and bitter tears.

Yes, I agree that division is part of sin. But I think Catholics underestimate their own division. Look at how many people contracept and vote for pro-abortion Obama, for example. Look at the Eastern Orthodox schism. Look at the different rites. Look at the liberal parishes.

Or how about $$PX (I heard it’s a forbidden topic on this forum)?

vsedriver:

if that were so [that we only need the Bible and HS] then why do some churches believe the Lord’s supper is a symbol and some believe it is his body and blood? Both can’t be right. Some Christians say abortion is a sin, some do not. Some say Gay marriage is OK, some do not. There is only one Truth and then there are those who would like the Truth to suit them instead of them suiting the Truth.

Because the Bible doesn’t say anything about how to vote, and because Jesus never did anything politically on earth. Therefore the Truth is that there is flexibility on that issue.

vsedriver:

How about oppressive governments, lack of education, lack of economic development, all of which prevent people from bettering themselves. I know families of 10, 12, and 14 kids who worked their way out of poverty. so it isn’t babies who keep you poor.

It’s a fact that the birthrate is lower in richer nations. Oppressive governments and lack of development, I find more in Latin America than the USA. Unless you like the revolucion and Cuban healthcare. If Latin America is so culturally conservative, why do we find Carnaval and thong bikinis in Rio, risque soap operas on Univision, gay marriage in Mexico City and Uruguay, an atheist Chilean president, pura vida in Costa Rica, and racist attitudes in Argentina?

Kal2012:

I don’t get how Protestants feel connected to other Protestants given that you don’t share the same Bible readings each week.

No need to read the same passage. It’s like sharing a meal, sport or activity, or ethnicity together. Something in common, like having the Holy Spirit.

meme1961:

The average length of a so called “committed, homosexual relationship” is about 2 and one half years. Whether legal changes lengthen this remains to be seen, but one thing is for sure:

That’s about the average length of a committed heterosexual relationship. Half of the 8100 gay marriage licenses in Massachusetts were to couples that were together more than a decade:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Massachusetts

Despite your political opposition to gay rights, can you concede that Christian treatment of gays thus far has been woeful?

 

[CaliLobo]

Guanophore

Once again, I concede that division is the fruit of sin. But like in my previous post, I think Catholics underestimate their own division.

Either way, how do we know that Benedict have the same mind as the Apostles? Simply because of Apostolic Succession?

1 Tim 1:3
I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine

But as for you, teach what is consistent with sound doctrine.15 Titus 2:1
Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authorityTitus 2:15

The Apostles entrusted the One Faith to their successors, the Bishops, and charged them sternly to teach nothing that departed from it…

True that, but He intends for [His prayer] to be answered yes NOW!

**So how we know that Catholicism is that doctrine, when Apostolic Succession is questionable and the Magisterium has arguably lost its way?? No one has directly attacked my argument is Jesus is the High Priest forever.

Could it be true that the Truth about some issues is that there is flexibility? Eddie too, I am not saying the Church shouldn’t preach about morals, but regarding what to do in the political arena, there is definitely flexibility, as once again, Jesus never did anything politically.**

How do you know Jesus wants his prayer answered yes now?? As long as sin is on this earth and sin causes division, how could it possibly be answered yes now??

 

[CaliLobo]

joe370:

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that you are right. With that said, which church founded by Jesus in the 1st century, in the world today, do you believe is correctly following Christ, in terms of doctrinal truth?

Perhaps such a church was NOT founded in the 1st century. Perhaps the modern Evangelical church represents the future of Christianity…

 

[davidv]

Perhaps such a church was NOT founded in the 1st century. Perhaps the modern Evangelical church represents the future of Christianity…

“perhaps” is not very convincing, given ~2000 years of contiguous history of the Catholic Church.