Invincible Ignorance in the Bible?

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Luke Chapter 12
The servant who knew his master’s will, but did not maker preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly.

Is this a case for the Catholic Doctrine of Inivincible Ignorance? Or not?
 
Not really, as the difference between the servants punishment is only in degree. Hell is a different kind of punishment – permanent.
The text cited is more of a proportionality of purgatory type of argument.

Hell of punishment “Peona Damni” is also proportional to the crime,
but the verse cited would only weakly support it.

There are OT readings about how “everyone did as they thought best” – which was a punishment of sorts in and of itself due to ignorance through loss of the Law. God’s dealing with them was different at this time.

Consider – Sarai was Abram’s half sister, but the final Law of God including prohibitions against such a marriage did not yet exist.
Abraham, the forefather in faith, is not punished for the marriage – but to the contrary is blessed in that marriage and commanded to bring forth Isaac in promise.
 
Not really, as the difference between the servants punishment is only in degree. Hell is a different kind of punishment – permanent.
The text cited is more of a proportionality of purgatory type of argument.

Hell of punishment “Peona Damni” is also proportional to the crime,
but the verse cited would only weakly support it.

There are OT readings about how “everyone did as they thought best” – which was a punishment of sorts in and of itself due to ignorance through loss of the Law. God’s dealing with them was different at this time.

Consider – Sarai was Abram’s half sister, but the final Law of God including prohibitions against such a marriage did not yet exist.
Abraham, the forefather in faith, is not punished for the marriage – but to the contrary is blessed in that marriage and commanded to bring forth Isaac in promise.
Thank you for answering, I forgot that I made this thread.🙂 I was thinking that it applied to Purgatory, but then hesistated to apply it to that because in that case, the “victim” was ignorant of the master’s will. People are not ignorant of the master’s will in Purgatory are they?
 
I don’t see why not. The lighter beating, is for less culpability. The heavier is for more. The purpose of purgatory isn’t punishment in the sense of revenge or malice, nor is it a second ‘chance’ bur rather – as the scriptures assert:

1Cori 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cori 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cori 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Cori 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cori 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1

Yet no man can build rightly without knowledge of Jesus Christ – so it would follow that ignorance itself would be an opportunity to add quite a bit of hay or stubble…
 
I don’t see why not. The lighter beating, is for less culpability. The heavier is for more. The purpose of purgatory isn’t punishment in the sense of revenge or malice, nor is it a second ‘chance’ bur rather – as the scriptures assert:

1Cori 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cori 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cori 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Cori 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cori 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1

Yet no man can build rightly without knowledge of Jesus Christ – so it would follow that ignorance itself would be an opportunity to add quite a bit of hay or stubble…
I absolutely submit to the truth you have revealed to me. Thank you for reproving my errors.
 
If you finish Luke 12:48 “Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more” Luke 12:35-48 has to do with Lukes understanding of the end of times, and emphasizes the importance of being faithful to Jesus’s instructions.
 
Not really, as the difference between the servants punishment is only in degree. Hell is a different kind of punishment – permanent.
The text cited is more of a proportionality of purgatory type of argument.

Hell of punishment “Peona Damni” is also proportional to the crime,
but the verse cited would only weakly support it.

There are OT readings about how “everyone did as they thought best” – which was a punishment of sorts in and of itself due to ignorance through loss of the Law. God’s dealing with them was different at this time.

Consider – Sarai was Abram’s half sister, but the final Law of God including prohibitions against such a marriage did not yet exist.
Abraham, the forefather in faith, is not punished for the marriage – but to the contrary is blessed in that marriage and commanded to bring forth Isaac in promise.
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Is there a reason to think this passage refers to purgatory rather than degrees of punishment in hell?

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
Is there a reason to think this passage refers to purgatory rather than degrees of punishment in hell?
Spiritus Sapientiae tecum.
Simili modo:

Hell (peona damni) is different kind of punishment, permanent.
A servant, the object of this passage – in a parable – is not normally beaten forever, nor does Jesus say he is thrown outside bound hand and foot to wail and grind his teeth. The passages which are unambiguously (apologetically) about hell use signs of an eternal, or permanent dismissal. For example, those who “killed the son” in the vineyard pronounce the sentence “put to death” on themselves when confronted with the parable.

Here are some themes along the general line:

On your belly you shall crawl, eating the dust.
++ Remember man you are dust and to dust you shall return.

Or again, into a lake of eternal fire where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

And again, “I never knew you … depart from me you who work iniquity”

Notice also, it is just those who “Begin” to eat and drink, and …
who are the object of the parable.

I will repeat myself in the positive: It supports the levels of hell weakly. (By which it is obvious that I think it can be applied to hell although not as a proof text – by itself --).

Pax tecum.
 
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

It would be a serious thing to mistake a warning of hell for an assurance of purgatory. I have always been lead to read the passage in Luke 12 as warning of damnation, disclosing that there are levels of punishment in hell.

Several arguments tend against reading this passage as a warning of purgation:

First, the situation described is the Second Coming (or at least personal judgment at one’s death). It seems unlikely that a chastisement designed to ‘change the servant’s mind about what he is doing or failing to do’ would be appropriate on the day of judgment. In fact, the time to repent will have lapsed. It seems that reading the beatings, sever or light, as “corrections” would be to misconstrue the time.

Second, the sins described in the parable seem to indicate that the servants described are not trying to accomplish what the Master wills, but are pursuing their own ends. This is an apt description of mortal sin.

Third, salvation requires a free assent of the servant of the Lord to the will of God. If the “beatings” are understood as mere corrections, then the image becomes one of a Master subduing an unwilling servant. This is not a worthy image, if the Master is Christ.

Finally, if one compares the three servants described in Luke 12:35-48 to others who are clearly damned, they are equally or more culpable.

Consider the foolish virgins, who fail to plan sufficiently and come late, with their oil, which they have obtained after waiting all night for the Bridegroom: “. . . and the door was shut. But at last come also the other virgins, saying: Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answering said: Amen I say to you, I know you not.” (Mt 25:10-12). Significantly this judgment of exclusion is followed by the same warning as in the passage in Luke: “Watch ye therefore, because you know not the day nor the hour.” (Mt 25:13).

Consider the unprofitable servant, who feared the Master’s return and so kept his entrusted talent safe, but did not work for its increase or entrust it to others who would have used it to obtain interest: “And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25:30).

Even the servant who “shall be beaten with few stripes” is specifically said to have done “things worthy of stripes” (Lk 12: 48). Compare this to those who “work iniquity” (Mt 13:41) who “shall [be] cast . . . into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mt 13:41-42); and to those “workers of iniquity” to whom it is said, ““There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.” (Lk 13:27-28).

Consider the guest who responded to the invitation and came to the wedding feast, but did not wear the wedding garment as expected, but was silent when asked why: “Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Mt 22:13-14).

Given these comparisons, and the context of decisive judgment at the coming of the Lord, it is imprudent to consider the Lord’s warning as a promise of purgation and paradise. Rather, the beatings should be taken as symbols of the gradations of punishment in hell, warning those who choose against Christ that even after this choice is made, there will be consequences for the degrees of their sins. This is a necessary warning, lest a man be tempted to see a decision to oppose Christ as a form of emancipation from restraint – thinking that all damnation is equal.

A side issue: it is interesting to note that this is one of the true senses of the saying “only faith saves”; one will not be allowed to change one’s mind once the consequences of sin become manifest at death or at the Second Coming – once faith is replaced by vision – rather, one must repent voluntarily, relying on faith in Christ’s word and directions:

“But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are. Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.” (Lk 13:24-28).

It is much more prudent to make every effort to avoid all “beatings,” than to assume that even a “light beating” will be followed by heaven.

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
John,

“Imprudent” is a pretty strong word given that I have made no absolute assertions about the passage. I freely admit that the passage can be used to support graduations of hell – but It doesn’t have to be taken that way.

One of the servants did not know what the master’s will was.
The Catholic church does acknowledge a form of the doctrine of invincible ignorance (the subject of the thread?) – and at least one of the servants may* fit this category.

Citing other parables which have greater degrees of condemnation does not make this parable about eternal condemnation.
Both Purgatory AND Damnation are end times events, so bringing up the final judgment does nothing to make the argument exclusive to hell. One is either cleansed or damned at the final moment(s).

Since there are plenty of OTHER parables which address the issue of peona damni explicity, there is nothing imprudent in being cautious about one which is less clear for the purpose of apologetics.

The level of the sin bears some merit in the argument, But:

What is the Lord’s intention, and how is it proved?
Certanly the prodigal son committed worse crimes than not wearing a white garment at the wedding – yet the Father welcomes him back (no beatings.).
That’s another parable.

In this parable (not the others), it isn’t clear exactly what the Master is like – Some father’s undoubtedly beat their children.
(It’s a parable, not a condemnation of God. The standard here is human with a lesson in mind.). As an aside, there is mention of steward and slave – two seemingly different kinds of people.
A steward is one in whom trust is placed, more of a friend.
A slave is typically untrustworthy, running away, and other such problems.

A bad slave was typically beaten correctively, and sold if too much trouble. Killing them or permanently maiming them decreased the Master’s wealth – and would not be a very wise master, and unworthy of the parable.

However, if a friend wasted one’s goods – it is not inconceivable that they would be reduced to a slave (sold into it to pay back the master), and kept in the household.

Notice also: St. Peter himself (the apostle) asks the question – is the parable for us or everyone? – St. Peter is not thinking of himself as a slave in the sense typical of the day – he is a steward.

There are two things I get from this parable: Consequenses are proportional to wrong-doing, and knowledge intensifies crime.
Both of these things apply to the doctrine of purgatory, and hell.

Pax tecum.
 
John,

“Imprudent” is a pretty strong word . . .

There are two things I get from this parable: Consequenses are proportional to wrong-doing, and knowledge intensifies crime.
Both of these things apply to the doctrine of purgatory, and hell.

Pax tecum.
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear Huiou Theou:

I agree that parables can be used in different contexts to draw focused lessons – St. Augustine does this with this very parable when he uses it to explain why the world before Christ seemed less convulsed with trouble than the world since. He argued, based on this passage in Luke, that, before the Gospel entered the world, light stripes were given for grave wrongs, but since the Gospel became available – even though it had not been heard by all – the world was punished more severely, as a servant who knows but fails to do the Master’s will. Clearly, this is an application of a principle from the parable and not the literal meaning of the parable itself. (See, Augustine, Sermon 22 on the New Testament, 7; and Augustine, Letter 111, 2.)

I think this use by St. Augustine is similar to the two principles that you draw from the parable, both of which seem correct and, as you say, both seem applicable through the analogy of faith and as principles of justice to both Hell and Purgatory.

However, when considering the literal meaning of the parable, what you call “the Lord’s intention,” the parable must be taken as a whole, in the context of the Chruch and all of the Scriptures, and in the analogy of Faith. (See, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 112-114; Vatican II, Dei Verbum, 12.) When St. Augustine undertakes to do this, to read the parable itself, rather than to use a principle that it manifests, this is what he says:

Observe how clearly He here shows that it is a graver matter for a man to sin with knowledge than in ignorance. And yet we must not on this account betake ourselves for refuge to the shades of ignorance, with the view of finding our excuse therein. It is one thing to be ignorant, and another thing to be unwilling to know. For the will is at fault in the case of the man of whom it is said, “He is not inclined to understand, so as to do good.” But even the ignorance, which is not theirs who refuse to know, but theirs who are, as it were, simply ignorant, does not so far excuse any one as to exempt him from the punishment of eternal fire, though his failure to believe has been the result of his not having at all heard what he should believe; but probably only so far as to mitigate his punishment. For it was not said without reason: “Pour out Your wrath upon the heathen that have not known You;” nor again according to what the apostle says: “When He shall come from heaven in a flame of fire to take vengeance on them that know not God.” But yet in order that we may have that knowledge that will prevent our saying, each one of us, “I did not know,” “I did not hear,” “I did not understand;” the human will is summoned, in such words as these: "Wish not to be as the horse or as the mule, which have no understanding . . .” (Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, (AD 426 or 427), Ch. 5.)(Emphasis added.)
The word “probably” in the above quotation is the point at which prudence in interpreting the text is at issue. On balance, when judging the passage in light of the entire Church and Gospel, the better view is that the parable of the servant of “few stripes” is a warning about hell. The matter of prudence at issue is similar to this: If one finds a downed high-power wire lying across the street and it is not obvious whether it is “live” or not, one has a problem. If it is “live,” touching it would be fatal. If it is not “live,” lifting it and moving it out of the way might be difficult and sweaty work, but one will succeed in clearing the road and moving past the spot. What does prudence suggest? When in doubt, treat the wire as “live.”

For these reasons, this parable raises interesting questions about the nature of and the distinctions between punishment and purgation, but it does not provide an incidence of “ignorance” leading to salvation.

The idea that sincere ignorance could save is helpfully discussed in this paper, which might help further this discussion: “Conscience and Truth,” by then Cardinal Ratzinger (1991).

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
John 15:22 If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

It bears pointing out that ignorance does not save. Only grace saves–and no one is saved apart from grace (and we are all born apart from grace). Likewise, we need supernatural faith. What ignorance can do is excuse one from sins that would have damned or for not expressly believing or doing things one should have done (a desire to do and believe these things would be implicit in supernatural faith)–but ignorance apart from supernatural faith does nothing.

We must completely surrender to divine love, repent for our sins, and place our faith completely in God. This may manifest itself differently depending on what information someone has or is responsible for, but it is necessary regardless.
 
Here’s another passage which commentary from the Douay Rheims specifically says deals with invincible ignorance:

John 9:41 Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you should not have sin: but now you say: We see. Your sin remaineth.

41 “If you were blind”… If you were invincibly ignorant, and had neither read the scriptures, nor seen my miracles, you would not be guilty of the sin of infidelity: but now, as you boast of your knowledge of the scriptures, you are inexcusable.
 
Laudatur Iesus Christus:

Dear Huiou Theou:

I do not want to give the impression either to you or to others who may be following this discussion that we are disagreeing on a fundamental level. Our differences seem to be concerned with the details of reading, not with the elements of the Faith involved. I do not deny that the sort of discussion which takes up principles from a parable and seeks to explore its implications is useful and engaging. Several of the ideas which you have suggested seem useful in the proper circumstances and important to remember when thinking about issues in the light of Faith.

Our disagreement, where it is most pronounced, is on the issue of whether there is doubt about the literal meaning of the parable about the servant of “few stripes” in Luke. Beyond the literal meaning, I do not think that we disagree about the utility of the principles which you have drawn from the parable as tools of thinking about other important ideas.

With this limited nature of our dispute in mind, I wanted to reply to three more of the points which you made in the post referenced blow.
Certanly the prodigal son committed worse crimes than not wearing a white garment at the wedding – yet the Father welcomes him back (no beatings.).
That’s another parable.
The distinction between the parable of the “prodigal son” and the “servant of few stripes” is the difference between repentance when there is still time and the failure to repent before the hour of judgment is come. Clarity about this distinction is the central reason for my objection to taking the “few stripes” as affording hope of cleaning things up after judgment day.
In this parable (not the others), it isn’t clear exactly what the Master is like – Some father’s undoubtedly beat their children.
(It’s a parable, not a condemnation of God. The standard here is human with a lesson in mind.).
I can understand the interest and utility of considering a parable on its own as a first stage in reading it. However, this cannot be accepted as a sufficient approach. The Scriptures must be read as a whole, in the context of the Church and the analogy of faith. (See, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 112-114; Vatican II, Dei Verbum, 12.) Given this, we cannot say that we do not know the Master, since we must bring to the parable all that we know about Him from the other parables and from the rest of the Tradition and life of the Church.

I may not take your meaning correctly, but it seems to me that the parable is a lesson for humans that reveals a divine standard. To take it as presenting a human standard would be to miss its direct meaning. It is impossible for it to be a “condemnation of God.” We must respond to the divine standard and not reduce it to a human one. Human conduct responding to divine standards is the challenge of the Faith.
As an aside, there is mention of steward and slave – two seemingly different kinds of people.
A steward is one in whom trust is placed, more of a friend.
A slave is typically untrustworthy . . . St. Peter is not thinking of himself as a slave in the sense typical of the day – he is a steward.
As to the possibilities of distinguishing the “steward” from the “slave,” I think the Greek text makes this untenable as a literal reading of the parable – though as I said above, it might be an interesting line of thought in which one or more principles from the parable may be applied to related subjects though not to the literal reading of the parable itself. The Greek text does not seem to me to bear the suggested distinction between ‘steward” and “slave” because the word used in the text is “doulos” from beginning to end, both when the steward did his duty and when he abandoned it. The same word is used of the knowing and the unknowing “servants.” It is my impression that this Greek word is used specifically to distinguish a person born into service from a person who is reduced to slavery from a free condition. (See, Liddell & Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, “doulos.”) Given this, the relationship between the Master and the servants in the parable is an inherent relationship, so far as the parable presents it.

I hope these notes are helpful in pursuing and prudently weighing the various lines of thought spawned by this parable. After all, it is learning the Master’s business, and not merely listing possible interpretations, which gives us the hope of rising from born slavery to be friends of Christ. (Cf., John 15:15.)

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
Here’s another passage which commentary from the Douay Rheims specifically says deals with invincible ignorance:

John 9:41 Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you should not have sin: but now you say: We see. Your sin remaineth.

41 “If you were blind”… If you were invincibly ignorant, and had neither read the scriptures, nor seen my miracles, you would not be guilty of the sin of infidelity: but now, as you boast of your knowledge of the scriptures, you are inexcusable.
Yes that is a good instance. I can’t deny.
 
John,
I do not have time to respond in full, so I will focus narrowly.
However, when considering the literal meaning of the parable, what you call “the Lord’s intention,” the parable must be taken as a whole, in the context of the Chruch and all of the Scriptures, and in the analogy of Faith. (See, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 112-114; Vatican II, Dei Verbum, 12.)
Interesting, so when I take it in context of Purgatory, which is part of the Catechism of the catholic church – I am ‘irresponsible’ :rolleyes:

There are so many misguided people who may be going to hell because they “trip” over the doctrine of Purgatory and never enter the church because they don’t understand THAT DOCTRINE.

I agree with the statement of Dei Verbum – but the context of Dei Verbum is research which the church uses to increase her knowledge and interpretation of the scriptures. The very fact that the church does not claim to be already omniscient about every detail of scripture is encouragement to look at the context of each part of scripture freshly keeping in mind the guideposts of dogma.
Given this, we cannot say that we do not know the Master, since we must bring to the parable all that we know about Him from the other parables and from the rest of the Tradition and life of the Church.
God the almighty, potent, and beyond searching out is known but not always in a purely intellectual way.
I may not take your meaning correctly, but it seems to me that the parable is a lesson for humans that reveals a divine standard. To take it as presenting a human standard would be to miss its direct meaning. It is impossible for it to be a “condemnation of God.” We must respond to the divine standard and not reduce it to a human one. Human conduct responding to divine standards is the challenge of the Faith.
Well said!

Although I meant by the statement “it is not a condemnation of God” a variation on the notion you are speaking of.

Unfortunately, this is part of the disagreement – Parables are human standards which point to a divine standard.

Rewinding to CCC #110, on the sacred author’s intention:
the reader must take into account the conditions, culture, the literary genres in use at that time…
The very nature of the parable genre is to take an event which is close at hand – that is which all of the culture would be familiar with – and use it to teach a lesson. However, a parable could not be familiar if the Master was unfamiliar, and even alien to them.

Hence, the parable as the building block of teaching must start from the human and move toward the divine. This is why I have said the parable (itself) weakly supports the position of hell since a literal interpretation is less severe in the context of the times.

Again, I do not have time to read the Greek today – but St. Peter was undoubtedly a steward, as at the last supper (a wider context of the church) Jesus calls him a friend and no longer a slave.
And as to the thought of St. Peter at an earlier time, consider that St. Peter also asked Jesus on another occasion: “We have given up all to follow you…” and again, at still another time the promise of the twelve thrones given to the twelve apostles. etc.

(I am aware also of the slavery of the law – and the Exodus – and much wider birth considerations which would make for an alternate reading)

More when I get a chance to properly review my thoughts – as there is a distinctive wandering of topic from how scripture may be used to show a point – to how one who already is obedient to the church must interpret scripture. These are quite different things.
 
H and John, please try to simplify your posts. They are too big for my small brain to understand.😉 🙂
 
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Another thought occurred to me in reflecting on this Gospel.

Thinking about Huiou Theou’s comments about the familiarity of the audience with the elements used in the parable, I started thinking about “stripes” or “being flayed with a whip.”

I have some experience with “soft-tissue injuries” involved in automobile accidents at low speeds (3-10 mph). In such cases, permanent, chronic pain sometimes results from the spasmodic tensing of muscles or from the “whiplash” effect of the body being moved violently during the collision. (This “whiplash” pain is only sometimes responsive to treatment, and its cause is not well understood. I have seen speculation that it is caused by microscopic tears and the resultant scaring in the muscle tissue, but this theory is not proven as far as I am aware.)

It seems to me, in light of this, that even a “few” lashes with a whip would be likely to inflict a permanent injury on the victim. I note that the Greek word used in the parable is “deraw’ which means to “skin or flay.” This certainly suggests that at least a permanent scar would result. I submit that it would also result in permanent – though perhaps intermittent – pain for the remainder of the victim’s life.

Does anyone know of any first person accounts of persons who have been scourged and then later talked about the effects? These may be helpful in discerning whether this argument makes sense.

So far the only thing I have found online is an account of a man who died as a result of a military flogging – though the skin was not exceptionally damaged, there was a pulping of the soft tissue beneath the skin and an expert testified that the internal injuries caused by the flogging were the direct cause of death. (See, Fatal Case of Military Flogging at Hounslow, Edinburgh Medical and Surgical Journal (1846).)

If the effects of being whipped are as I am suggesting, and the audience of the parable was thought to be familiar these effects, this suggests that the “stripes” and even the “few stripes” would be understood by the original audience to be the imposition of different degrees of permanent pain and disability upon the two servants described.

What do y’all think of this argument?

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
Ezekiel 45:20
You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.

Acts 3:17
"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Ephesians 4:18
They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Hebrews 9:7
But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

1 Peter 1:14
As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in** ignorance**.

Romans 2:14-15 (King James Version)

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

1 Corinthians 4:4
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
 
What do y’all think of this argument?
Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.
The first part about the car isn’t very clear – but the permanent injury from lashings is. St. Paul, rest he in heaven, said:
2Cori 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Cori 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
I think you are probably right about permanent scars, risk of infection and the like. But they wouldn’t beat a slave to death:
Exodu 21:26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake.
Exodu 21:27 And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake.
Not that Rome allowed the enforcement of Hebrew law…
 
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