Iota Unum by Romano Amerio

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Phillip_Rolfes said:
Such as…?
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Dude the objections are well known. I’ve read about the issues and while I feel an American (I believe?) priest named Brian Harrison settled the religious liberty question satisfactorily, I’m perplexed that if the Holy Spirit spoke through the Council such long winded explanations are needed.
 
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Phillip_Rolfes said:
Wasn’t his work vindicated by Pope St. John Paul II, or was that just von Balthasar?
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Both. DeLubac was made a Cardinal. His work was not vindicated as such - he had to correct it and republish. But I do not think he changed his theology. It’s a tactic that Pope St. Pius X described. Errors are concealed, not brought to light.
But to restate - yes, he found favor with Pope St. John Paul II. But that does not mean that his work is free from error as I see it.
 
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StudentMI said:
I’m perplexed that if the Holy Spirit spoke through the Council such long winded explanations are needed.
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That’s a key issue that Abp Vigano addresses.
Why should it take convoluted documents to try to reconcile the document with tradition? The anti-traditionalist view is permitted also. So Abp Vigano says that the anti-tradition was designed by Vatican II itself. The hermeneutic of continuity is a proposal that has not been successful. Instead, the (modernist) Spirit of Vatican II, is in fact what Vatican II desired as an outcome. If not, then why has it been tolerated for 60 years?
 
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If you want my honest opinion, the sooner the Council is forgotten about the better.
 
Bill_B_NY said:
The anti-traditionalist view is permitted also
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Actually, within the hermeneutic of continuity, it’s not permitted. The only reason the so-called “spirit of Vatican II” has persisted for so long is because of old-fashioned human sinfulness and disobedience. But Pope St. Paul VI, Pope St. John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI did what they could from a top-level position to quell that “spirit.” But true reform within the Church has only ever really come from a grass-roots level.
 
*Dignitatis humanae

“So the state, whose proper purpose it is to provide for the temporal common good, should certainly recognize and promote the religious life of its citizens. With equal certainty it exceeds the limits of its authority, if it takes upon itself to direct or to prevent religious activity.”[59]
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This is one of the biggest challenges.
The state is not permitted to direct or prevent religious activity, but that conflicts with many actual Catholic practices approved by the Holy See in the past.
 
And what about the comment from Schillebeeckx I believe who said certain things were inserted in the documents and it was merely a matter of drawing them out after the Council?
 
StudentMI said:
I’m perplexed that if the Holy Spirit spoke through the Council such long winded explanations are needed.
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I suggest that one reason the documents of the Council were so long-winded is because the Council itself was heavily influence by the Catholic East. Eastern Christians love being long-winded, explaining things in roundabout ways using imagery and poetry. We’re rarely to-the-point. This just doesn’t jive well with the Roman scholastic mentality.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
Actually, within the hermeneutic of continuity, it’s not permitted. The only reason the so-called “spirit of Vatican II” has persisted for so long is because of old-fashioned human sinfulness and disobedience. But Pope St. Paul VI, Pope St. John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI did what they could from a top-level position to quell that “spirit.” But true reform within the Church has only ever really come from a grass-roots level.
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Yes, it is not permitted in that hermenuetic. But in practical terms, the Popes have permitted it. Abp Vigano cites Pope Francis’ statement on how “God wills the diversity of religion” - also the placing of pagan statues on Catholic altars and allowing pagan worship. The destruction of Catholic missionary activity with commands not to evangelize.
The Pope has told the Jewish Community that Catholics are not permitted to organize efforts at evangelizing them.
Pope St John Paul II was annointed in a pagan ceremony.
These all flow from the Spirit of Vatican II - permitted by Popes.
Some are thinking now, that these are mistaken ideas - flowing from mistakes in the Council itself.
The Council did not propose infallible dogmas so it can be reformed.
 
I’m not familiar with the comment from Schillebeeckx. But that doesn’t negate the hermeneutic of continuity called for by the popes.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
I suggest that one reason the documents of the Council were so long-winded is because the Council itself was heavily influence by the Catholic East. Eastern Christians love being long-winded, explaining things in roundabout ways using imagery and poetry. We’re rarely to-the-point. This just doesn’t jive well with the Roman scholastic mentality.
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Before I go on too far, I will say that I admire anyone who attempts the hermenuetic of continuity. It is a difficult task. I have tried it myself for many years. It’s really only with Pope Francis and Abp Vigano that I have given up on that.
But I will be glad if someone can actually reconcile Vatican II with the true teachings of the Church. I just have not seen it.
 
Abp Vigano also wonders why Vatican II has virtually destroyed all of the teaching of the past so that encyclicals of prior Popes are ignored. Almost everything in the Church has been changed by Vatican II, and there is no good reason for that.
 
Bill_B_NY said:
It’s really only with Pope Francis… that I have given up on that.
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I can empathize with that. I had to stopped paying attention to Vatican news during Lent because it was robbing me of my peace of soul
 
My friends, I must bow out of this conversation, as much as I’ve enjoyed it and truly appreciate your perspectives. I have another engagement I must get ready for.

Thank you for sharing your insights. Pray for me. And if you’re ever in my area, reach out and let me know. I like face-to-face discussions much more than online discussions. 😉
 
Thanks Phillip! Yes, prayers for you. I appreciate your insights.
 
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