IRA 'changed radically', says IMC

[GarryOwen]

No. Bloody Sunday did that.

As other posters have said, The British did more to brings in recruits and inspire the IRA than any Irish nationist patriot.

Internment, Bloody Sunday, checkpoints with stripsearches of females, a thousand other things…basically treating people like animals.

Yes you are correct upto a point. But bear in mind the IRA were the main enemy of the British at the time, the loyalists were seen as a side issue even though they waged a secterian murder campaign against catholics . It was the IRA who was killing members of the security forces at the time, that is why the British concentrated their efforts on the IRA and perceived members of that group.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes you are correct upto a point. But bear in mind the IRA were the main enemy of the British at the time, the loyalists were seen as a side issue even though they waged a secterian murder campaign against catholics . It was the IRA who was killing members of the security forces at the time, that is why the British concentrated their efforts on the IRA and perceived members of that group.

The IRA were the main enemy only because the British perceived them as the enemy.

The IRA disarmed in 1964, and when the Troubles started five years later, there was no one to protect the Catholics.
The RUC worked hand-in-glove with the Loyalist paramilitaries. The Catholics naturally needed some protection – young man like John Stevens (Sean MacStiofain) joined the IRA hoping to be armed – when they found out the truth, they broke away and formed Provisional IRA.

At the same time, the British – with no real threat facing them at all on the Catholic side decided to bulldoze the barricades, which were the only defense the Catholic ghettos had. They sent tanks (albeit with their turrets reversed) to knock down the barricades. To Catholics, who had seen RUC armored cars with machineguns supporting Loyalist mobs, this was a shocking thing.

The British could have ended the Troubles in a few weeks – but they chose to see the Catholics as the “real” enemy.

 

[GarryOwen]

No Vern the IRA never completely disarmed and the British never sent tanks (with or without turrets) to Nortern Ireland however they have armoured vehicles. Vern you`re making very generalised statements. The RUC were used and abused by the unionist government at the time. As much as you may not want to admit it there were some good officers in the RUC and thety were painted with the same brush as the bad ones were.

Would the US Goverment allow any sort of barricades to be built by any of its citizens in any part of the America and not go unremoved. ??? I think not

John Stevens (Sean MacStiofain the great republican hero…not. John Stevens was an Englishman who had previously served in the Royal Air Force, dont you think its a bit ironic.

What book did get you information from ???

 

[vern_humphrey]

No Vern the IRA never completely disarmed

yes, they did.

and the British never sent tanks (with or without turrets) to Nortern Ireland

serve.com/pfc/motorman/DannyHegarty.html

On 30/31 July 1972 units of the British Army began a major military operation designed to restore to state control a number of ‘No-go’ areas controlled by the IRA throughout the north of Ireland. ‘Operation Motorman,’ involving thousands of soldiers and armoured units, was aimed at saturating working class nationalist areas with troops, in particular the Bogside, Brandywell and Creggan areas of Derry, ‘Free Derry’ as it had become known. Media reports in the hours before the operation began suggested that unprecedented levels of troops and armoured vehicles, including Centurion tanks and bulldozers, would be involved.

The RUC were used and abused by the unionist government at the time. As much as you may not want to admit it there were some good officers in the RUC and thety were painted with the same brush as the bad ones were.

When the bad ones join the mob in attacking Catholics, or support a mob entering a catholic neighborhood with an armored car, the bad outweighs the good – by a wide margin.

Would the US Goverment allow any sort of barricades to be built by any of its citizens in any part of the America and not go unremoved. ??? I think not

We have them all over the country, varying from “gaited communities” to small communes and religious grouops.

John Stevens (Sean MacStiofain the great republican hero…not. John Stevens was an Englishman who had previously served in the Royal Air Force, dont you think its a bit ironic.

Some of the key leaders in the Tan War on the Irish side were Englishmen – Erskine Childers is an example. (Another example of a man with a non-Irish name serving would be the man who dragged James Connoly to safety in the GPO after he was shot.)

What book did get you information from ???

I’ve already given you a link to Operation Motorman. In '64, the IRA sold or gage most of their arms to Welsh nationalists. While they re-armed later and competed with the Provos, that organization is now the “Stickey” Workers Party

 

[GarryOwen]

No Vern, as I said earlier tanks were never used in Northern Ireland irrespective of what your link says.

Op Motorman, do you know anything about it other than what you`ve heard from Irish republican sympathisers.

Given the same same situation, what would the US army do.???

 

[vern_humphrey]

No Vern, as I said earlier tanks were never used in Northern Ireland irrespective of what your link says.

Wrong.

Op Motorman, do you know anything about it other than what you`ve heard from Irish republican sympathisers.

I know about it from many sources, including US Army sources. Among other things I have had to study terrorism, and have worked as a terrorist at the US Joint Readiness Training Center.

Given the same same situation, what would the US army do.???

Not that. The Posse Comitatus Act forbids the Army from acting in a law enforcement role that way.

 

[Eireann]

It appears to be Fr Edward Daly administering last rights to somene on the bloody sunday. And your point is…

I notice that you have soursed the blanket not even handed in their opinion regarding Irish politics. In fact your sourse is extremely biased and not a reliable reference point.

My initial point still stands and your ascerttion that the civil rights movement asked the IRA for help is complete rubbish.The civil rights movement was based on passive resistance their role models being Martin Luther King and Ghandi. The IRA was the final nail in the coffin of the civil rights movement.

I could go on here and disprove you, but as Robert has asked us to get back on track, have a nice thread.

 

[Eireann]

No Vern, as I said earlier tanks were never used in Northern Ireland irrespective of what your link says.

Op Motorman, do you know anything about it other than what you`ve heard from Irish republican sympathisers.

Given the same same situation, what would the US army do.???

I sang this song as a child, I guess the songwriter got it wrong.

Chorus:
Armored cars and tanks and guns
Came to take away our sons!
But every man must stand
Behind the men behind the wire!
In the little streets of Belfast,
In the dark of early morn,
British soldiers came a-running,
Wrecking little homes with scorn.
Hear the sobs of crying children,
Dragging fathers from their beds;
Watch the scenes as helpless mothers
Watch the blood fall from their heads.
Chorus:
2. Not for them a judge or jury,
Nor for them a crime at all,
Being Irish means they’re guilty,
So they’re guilty one and all.
Around the world the truth will echo:
Cromwell’s men are here again!
England’s name again is sullied
In the eyes of honest men.
Chorus:
3. Proudly march behind our banner;
Proudly march behind our men!
We will have them free to help us
Build a nation once again!
Come the people, step together,
Proudly, firmly on your way;
Never fear and never falter,
Till the boys come home to stay!
Chorus:

At 4 am on the 31st July 1972 Free Derry came to an end. Thousands of British troops, supported by** tanks **and armoured cars, swept into the area and began dismantling the barricades with bulldozers. The IRA offered no resistance in the face of this overwhelming force, having been warned by the build up of military equipment and personnel that a major operation was being planned.

Source

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Where are you getting your information from ???

Yes, loyalist ( paramilitary gangs)did kill catholics and many of them but statistically the IRA killed / murdered more Catholics than lthe oyalists did…fact of life.

Pax tecum!

I asked you for a source. When someone does that, you don’t just turn it around on them without providing your source. You are claiming that the IRA killed more Catholics than groups like the UFF and UVF. Please prove that statement. I have seen the numbers, and in fact gave a presentation on them a couple years ago, and unless you are including the number of Catholics killed in the Irish civil war, then I haven’t seen anything that says the IRA killed more Catholics.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[GarryOwen]

Pax tecum!

I asked you for a source. When someone does that, you don’t just turn it around on them without providing your source. You are claiming that the IRA killed more Catholics than groups like the UFF and UVF. Please prove that statement. I have seen the numbers, and in fact gave a presentation on them a couple years ago, and unless you are including the number of Catholics killed in the Irish civil war, then I haven’t seen anything that says the IRA killed more Catholics.

In Christ,
Rand

Lost lives by Mc Kitterick et al.

 

[GarryOwen]

When is a tank, not a tank, when its an armoured fighting vehicle or an armoured bulldozer.

cain.ulst.ac.uk/melaugh/portfolio2/f2p37.htm.

 

[tigerlily]

This is a very good sign.

my friend at college had two uncles accidentally murdered by the ira. this is too little too late.

oh she was catholic by the way. let’s not forget the evil things they did in the past. like the holocaust, it should never be forgotten.

as for evil protestants making the whole situation worst? funny considering many irish catholics moved to ulster as there was free welfare there. if the irish govt had introduced it sooner, there’d have been less trouble.

the blame lies on BOTH sides and BOTH religions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When is a tank, not a tank, when its an armoured fighting vehicle or an armoured bulldozer.

cain.ulst.ac.uk/melaugh/portfolio2/f2p37.htm.

A British Army (BA) Centurion tank in the Creggan housing estate on the morning of ‘Operation Motorman’. The tank had its cannon removed and a ‘bulldozer’ blade attached to the front to help clear barricades in the ‘no-go’ area.

Go back and take a good look at the picture.

If the cannon was removed, you would see a hole in the turret where it was, dead center. But you don’t see any such hole in this picture, do you? In fact, you don’t see the matlet and frontal slope of the turret, either.

Now, why is that?

Because the turret is reversed. You’re looking at the front of the tank, but the back of the turret. Now, if you read my first comment, you will note I said the tanks had their turrets reversed. They still had the guns, but they’re point backward, and on this head-on shot you can’t see them.

 

[CWard34]

More uninformed people tossing around the terrorist label…

…

 

[GarryOwen]

Go back and take a good look at the picture.

If the cannon was removed, you would see a hole in the turret where it was, dead center. But you don’t see any such hole in this picture, do you? In fact, you don’t see the matlet and frontal slope of the turret, either.

Now, why is that?

Because the turret is reversed. You’re looking at the front of the tank, but the back of the turret. Now, if you read my first comment, you will note I said the tanks had their turrets reversed. They still had the guns, but they’re point backward, and on this head-on shot you can’t see them.

Yes, the turret is reversed, this is not conclusive proof that there is a gun on the reverse of this vehicle.

Read the caption under the photograph

Title: ‘Operation Motorman’ (6) [F2P37]
Description: A British Army (BA) Centurion tank in the Creggan housing estate on the morning of ‘Operation Motorman’. The tank had its cannon removed and a ‘bulldozer’ blade attached to the front to help clear barricades in the ‘no-go’ area.
Photographer: Eamon Melaugh
Date Taken: 31 July 1972
Location: Lislane Drive, Creggan, Derry
Copyright: © Eamon Melaugh

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes, the turret is reversed, this is not conclusive proof that there is a gun on the reverse of this vehicle.

Read the caption under the photograph

Title: ‘Operation Motorman’ (6) [F2P37]
Description: A British Army (BA) Centurion tank in the Creggan housing estate on the morning of ‘Operation Motorman’. The tank had its cannon removed and a ‘bulldozer’ blade attached to the front to help clear barricades in the ‘no-go’ area.
Photographer: Eamon Melaugh
Date Taken: 31 July 1972
Location: Lislane Drive, Creggan, Derry
Copyright: © Eamon Melaugh

M’lad, I already quoted that caption to you – and pointed out why it’s in error.

That turret is reversed for a reason. And the reason is not to make the vehicloe easier to handle. With the turret reversed, it is more difficult for the vehicle commander to control the vehicle – just the opposite of what you’d want if using the bulldozer blade in tight spaces.

That Centurion still has its gun – and that’s why the turret is reversed. In fact, if it were a CEV (Combat Engineer Vehicle) modification, the normal 105mm gun would be replaced with a shorter, 165mm demolition gun.

 

[GarryOwen]

M’lad, I already quoted that caption to you – and pointed out why it’s in error.

That turret is reversed for a reason. And the reason is not to make the vehicloe easier to handle. With the turret reversed, it is more difficult for the vehicle commander to control the vehicle – just the opposite of what you’d want if using the bulldozer blade in tight spaces.

That Centurion still has its gun – and that’s why the turret is reversed. In fact, if it were a CEV (Combat Engineer Vehicle) modification, the normal 105mm gun would be replaced with a shorter, 165mm demolition gun.

Vern please explain this if you may.
cain.ulst.ac.uk/melaugh/portfolio2/f2p39.htm

The vehicle commander is facing right to left, as is the inside of the lid of the turret. Although the turret can rotate 306 degrees the lid cant as it is fixed. If the turret is facing right to left then why is the gun not on view.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern please explain this if you may.
cain.ulst.ac.uk/melaugh/portfolio2/f2p39.htm

The vehicle commander is facing right to left, as is the inside of the lid of the turret. Although the turret can rotate 306 degrees the lid cant as it is fixed. If the turret is facing right to left then why is the gun not on view.

Geeze!

If we’re looking at the front of the turret and the gun has been removed, where is the hole where the gun used to be?!?!

Where is the glacis? Where is the linkage for the co-ax? Where is the sight? Why does the visible part of the turret have no slope?

That, me lad, is the **back **of the turret!

Now there were two flavors of Centurions with dozer blades:

The FV4003 Centurion Mk 5 AVRE 165 (1963) - AVRE (Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers) vehicle with 165 mm demolition gun and a hydraulically-operated dozer blade. Can carry a fascine bundle or a roll of metal Class 60 Trackway; and tow the Giant Viper mine-clearance equipment. The vehicle was used in the Gulf War (1991).

And the FV4019 Centurion Mk 5 Bulldozer (1961) - Centurion Mk V with a dozer blade identical to that of the Centurion AVRE. One such tank was usually given to every Centurion-equipped squadron.

Note that both have cannons – the FV4003, as I pointed out has a 165mm Demolition gun, and the FV4019 has the standard 105mm gun.

 

[system]

Vern please explain this if you may.

What are you trying to prove with one little photo and an argument over a tank? How important is that after thirty plus years?

Explain years of abusing Catholics. Explain how those non-lethal pastic bullets killed children. (they were never fired in protestant areas though.) Explain why my friends face got shattered by the butt of an RUC rifle.Explain how an RUC land Rover sat parked while a mob stomped a Catholic boy to death, but didn’t declare the area a crime scene for 2 more weeks. Explain how they desecrated bodies so the parents could not have an open casket wake, something very important to them.

Do you need photos and first-hand stories?
oistin.com/oistin/index.html
This book comes from 20 years of a man taking photos of what really happened.

The point is, no one can explain those and the 10 thousand other stories like that. You just have to grab on to the chance of peace whether you hate the politicians or not. And, considering what the so called police force has been in NI, it will be a downright miracle if Sinn Fein can get the IRA, and all republicans for that matter, to accept the PSNI. But I am betting it will happen. I’m also betting that Doctor NO (Ian Paisley) will find a way to say no.

PEACE

 

[DonProfondo]

Excellent. Dismantling terrorist groups intelligently is a slow but worthwhile process.

Indeed. Let us hope that “Her Majesty’s” Government will follow the example.