Iraq a Just War?

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gilliam:
This answer doesn’t tell me anything. Where are you getting that a just war, according to Catholic teaching, is, among other things, “one which avoids producing evils disproportionate to the cause” is a prerequisit for entering in upon a war?

How can anyone know ahead of time what a war will produce? A country can hope not to produce any evils, but they can’t guarantee it. If this was, indeed a prerequisite (which it isn’t), no war could be initiated. That is not the intent of the just war doctrine. There will always be cases where a war is the only way to stop the innocent from being hurt. That is Catholic theology, not this phrase that you quote from a liberal political writer.

You are inventing Catholic theology that is not there.
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**2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. **

Althougth this phrase ( “one which avoids producing evils disproportionate to the cause” ) is not exactly the same as the above phrase in the Catholic Catechism it is very close. I guess the Vatican is “inventing Catholic theology” according to you. I would rather say that they define Catholic theology.
 
There is a great article about Just War Theory in First Things ( firstthings.com/menus/ft0501.html ) but you either need to subscribe or wait until next month when it is released on the web. I recommend that you subscribe if you are interested in these things.
 
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SHEMP:
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

**These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. **

Althougth this phrase ( “one which avoids producing evils disproportionate to the cause” ) is not exactly the same as the above phrase in the Catholic Catechism it is very close. I guess the Vatican is “inventing Catholic theology” according to you. I would rather say that they define Catholic theology.
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Thank you. That is a reference to methods of making war, i.e., bombing cities or indiscriminate and brutal warfare, not what he was referring to. I don’t think. If so, than I understand now. We have seen in this war one of the most humain armies ever to occupy another country and a war that was executed in such a way as to avoid human casulties more than at any other time in history. There is no way one can say we violated this precept.

But I don’t know if that is what the author was referring to. Was it?
 
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gilliam:
How can anyone know ahead of time what a war will produce?
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Are you suggesting that the US military is unaware of what effects it’s planned strategy of a major bombing campaign of a large population center, Baghdad, would be likely to have?

Any reasonable person can project that many civilians would be injured and killed, have their property destroyed, and be left without basic human necessities, just as it happened.
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gilliam:
A country can hope not to produce any evils, but they can’t guarantee it.
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All the more reason that war should not be made based on precautionary principle.
 
St. James:
All the more reason that war should not be made based on precautionary principle.
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The intent of the Just War doctrine is that you can have certain wars when all else fails. Catholicism is not a pacifist religion. That is why St. Augustine and St. Thomas came up with the Just War Doctrine to begin with.
 
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gilliam:
The intent of the Just War doctrine is that you can have certain wars when all else fails.
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Just war doctrine does not allow for preemptive war.
 
St. James:
Objection to unjust war does not make one a pacifist.
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You said that war should not be made based on precautionary principle yet that could be one of the reasons for a just war. To bring it down to the family level. If you know someone is about to cause harm to your child, if you don’t do something about it, you would be a bad parent under Catholic theology. Same for someone who has the responsibility to protect a nation.

The Just War Doctrine attempts to put some prerequisites in place before the responsible party starts that war.

*three necessary conditions for a just war:

authorized authority: no question there. *For the US the rightful authority is the president and congress as granted to them by the people in the Constitution of the United States.

just cause: no question there. The cause was the protection of the United States

rightful intention: no question there. The president and congress truely believed they were protecting America from attack from a nutty dictator.
 
T
Look…War and Abortion are not comparable and to even suggest they are is a grave error on your part.

St. James said:
Joseph Sobran

…If only some of our conservative Catholic hawks, who doggedly insist that this “preventive” slaughter meets their Church’s standards of just warfare, could be brought to see war as a form of abortion. Would that change their minds? Or would they say that abortion is permissible in cases of rape, incest, and the need to topple Arab dictators?

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/spacer.gifThese Catholics clear their consciences adroitly. If the war can be justified abstractly, they don’t worry unduly about the actual victims. You might think they’d at least feel the necessity of killing innocent people for geopolitical reasons as posing a painful dilemma.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/spacer.gifYet I haven’t heard a single one of the Catholic hawks express moral anguish, or even suggest praying for the victims. After all, they seem to reason, it’s all Saddam Hussein’s fault. In the words of the legendary Crusader, “Kill them all! God will know his own.”

"One death is a tragedy,” Joseph Stalin observed. “A million deaths is a statistic.” There’s perspective for you. If we could get rid of Saddam Hussein by killing one child in Baghdad — a child whose name and face were broadcast like Elizabeth Smart’s — who would want to do the honors? But killing countless nameless, faceless children by remote control is easy.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/spacer.gifThe Pope, who has warned against the modern “Culture of Death,” has condemned this war. But again, Stalin speaks for the Catholic hawk: “The Pope? How many divisions does the Pope have?” One Catholic to whom I put the question sidestepped it by pointing out that the Pope hasn’t spoken ex cathedra (with full papal authority) against the war, and anyway, “We are not a theocracy.” Ergo, President Bush is entitled to kill, and good Catholics are entitled to support him.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/spacer.gifWell, the Pope never speaks ex cathedra on current events. He can’t make his opposition to this war a dogma of the Catholic faith, right up there with the Trinity and the Resurrection. That is no excuse for ignoring a clear application of the moral principle that killing the innocent is wrong.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/spacer.gifOf course Bush won’t intend the deaths of the victims. If he could depose Hussein without “collateral damage,” no doubt he would. But does he let the prospect of that indeterminate “collateral damage” interfere with his plans? Evidently not. Do his supporters even ask for an approximation of the number of innocent victims he foresees and is willing to accept? Evidently not. In the words of Madeleine Albright in answer to a similar question some years ago, “We think the price is worth it.” To whom? Isn’t anyone curious? We ask about how much money the war will cost, but not how many innocent lives.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/spacer.gifA just war, according to Catholic teaching, is, among other things, one which avoids producing evils disproportionate to the cause. Since Iraq hasn’t even threatened to harm the United States, let alone done so, even the “collateral damage” is criminal. It can’t honestly be called unavoidably incidental to the “common defense of the United States.”

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/spacer.gifThis is a war driven entirely by disingenuous propaganda. The idea didn’t bubble up to the government from Americans who were personally afraid of Iraq and pleaded with their government to protect them. Nor is it so urgent that the United States would fight on equal terms, risking defeat and devastation at home. Even after all the propaganda, Americans aren’t afraid of Iraq; they’re afraid of al-Qaeda. It’s Osama bin Laden, not Saddam Hussein, who has been a boon to the duct-tape industry.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/spacer.gifAs usual, the American people have been drawn passively into war. Even after such farces as the war on another “threat,” Panama’s Manuel Noriega, they trust their presidents to decide who their enemies are for them. I’m mortified to see my fellow Catholics supplying excuses for the perpetual war racket.

sobran.com/columns/2003/030320.shtml
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Well…in your infinite wisdom, please tell me how to conduct a war in which no innocent people are killed. Please do that for me.

We do our best to avoid civilian casualties, but they happen…it is a sad reality of war…but when there is no intent to maliciously kill these people, we should not be demonized. It is like a mortal sin…in order for it to be a mortal sin, intent and knowledge must be present…if not, your culpability diminishes.

And finally…I am going to say it one last time…At this point in time, it doesn’t matter if the Iraq war was just (even though I believe it is)…It simply does not matter…we are engaged in a conflict that we must win…PERIOD. No amount of trash talking the president, our country, or our troops is going to change that…so quit bickering and extend your hand to help instead of slapping us in the face.
St. James:
Are you suggesting that the US military is unaware of what effects it’s planned strategy of a major bombing campaign of a large population center, Baghdad, would be likely to have?

Any reasonable person can project that many civilians would be injured and killed, have their property destroyed, and be left without basic human necessities, just as it happened.

All the more reason that war should not be made based on precautionary principle.
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dumspirospero:
War and Abortion are not comparable and to even suggest they are is a grave error on your part.
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AMEN Thank you. Finally someone else to say this. To say we can’t fight one evil because of abortion is not a good comparison. Especially since we have a non-violent solution to abortion–we can vote against those who support it.

This is just a guess, not fact, but I’d be willing to wager that the very people who compare abortion and war make up a good portion of the near 50% of catholics who voted pro-abortion.

Thanks again.
 
Greetings:

The “war” in Iraq, is not really a war, but rather, another battle, yet a large one, in the war on terror. Let’s not forget September 11th. Our foe are Islamic militants, who have no nation, flag, or uniforms of their own, only a desire to bring their way of life upon the world.

Iraq is just the current “hot” battleground (as Afghan was). I say better we fight them there than in our streets. Let them flock to Baghdad where our courageous, compassionate, and well trained troops, can arrange their appearance before Allah.

May our Father’s hand be over them to help them accomplish their task and bring them home safely.
 
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Jay74:
AMEN Thank you. Finally someone else to say this. To say we can’t fight one evil because of abortion is not a good comparison. Especially since we have a non-violent solution to abortion–we can vote against those who support it.

This is just a guess, not fact, but I’d be willing to wager that the very people who compare abortion and war make up a good portion of the near 50% of catholics who voted pro-abortion.

Thanks again.
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How’s the food in the cafeteria?
 
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gilliam:
The Just War Doctrine attempts to put some prerequisites in place before the responsible party starts that war.

*three necessary conditions for a just war: *

*authorized authority: no question there. *For the US the rightful authority is the president and congress as granted to them by the people in the Constitution of the United States.

just cause: no question there. The cause was the protection of the United States

rightful intention: no question there. The president and congress truely believed they were protecting America from attack from a nutty dictator.
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That sounds great except for a minor detail. That’s not the Church’s doctrine on just war.

There actually are four conditions to the Church’s doctrine on just war.

Just War (2307-17)
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…In this regard Just War doctrine gives certain conditions for the legitimate exercise of force, all of which must be met:"1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  1. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  2. there must be serious prospects of success;
  3. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" CCC 2309].
 
St. James:
That sounds great except for a minor detail. That’s not the Church’s doctrine on just war.

There actually are four conditions to the Church’s doctrine on just war. In the case of the war in Iraq, the first condition has clearly not been met.
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The 4 requirements you listed are the discription of the for the legitimate exercise of force’ method inside the Just war doctrine.

And we were certain he intended to inflict us with lasting and grave agression. So it did meet the requirement.
 
St. James:
That sounds great except for a minor detail. That’s not the Church’s doctrine on just war.

There actually are four conditions to the Church’s doctrine on just war.
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Those 4 conditions are conditions defining the classic ‘just cause’ criteria for a Just War that I listed. What I listed is what St. Augustin and St. Thomas listed. What is in the Catechism has the 3 points in the different paragraphs, and enumerates details in the ‘just cause’ criteria.

In the case of Saddam, we were certain he had all intentions and means to inflict substantial and lasting damage (e.g., death, destruction, economic hardship) upon US possessions abroad and in the US. What’s more with terrorists hitting us over the last 20 years, we knew he could do it too.
 
I really suggest you spend some time reviewing this video on the new rule sets in this world and the threats the US faces now and how to wage peace.

[To view the 12/26 C-SPAN brief + call-in segments, click here for online streamed video from C-SPAN](http://switchboard.real.com/player/email.html?PV=6.0.12&&title=Thomas Barnett&link=rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/ter/ter122004_barnett.rm?mode=compact)

Or if you would rather read a transcript, go here:
thomaspmbarnett.com/media/transcripts.htm
 
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