Ireland public schools and the baptism requirement

[badnewsbarrett]

There are state funded Christian schools in most European countries, though the propyion varies widely from 90% in Ireland, 35% in the UK, and 10% in the Scandinavian countries. Stop trying to impose American norms on the rest of the world - we have a longer and more complex history than the US.

This isn’t about American norms, it’s about natural law. Something that was conceived of well outside America, I might add.

Thank you for supplying the percentages, and if I seek to impose American norms on the rest of the world, I will make that super clear.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

Agree with this totally.

Does the OP leave in Ireland?

Has the OP listened to all the radio/TV reports on this in Ireland? Or just done some research on the internet? (just curious)

I don’t live in Ireland. I don’t believe that matters though.

What would be better…to hang on to teaching the faith in schools? Or to totally throw God out of the school system?

Or perhaps a third option that doesn’t involve a false dichotomy. Are you open to that? I mean, I’m not even going to put the effort into articulating the actual idea if you’re just going to ignore it and look at straw men.

Yes, let’s turn our backs on God and push him out of our lives as much as possible It’s the politically correct thing to do, after all.

Straw men like this one. How do you not see that?

I’d recommend ending the prioritization of placement based on religion or religious observance, instead simply educating everyone in a whole district unless private enrollment is in play. And perhaps be flexible enough to allow non-Catholic and/or non-religious the ability to opt out of organized religion while at school.

Why do some people feel the need to make things up and then attribute them to people? I’ve never understood that. You need to stop it.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

Married to an Irishman.
Our parish in Ireland is celebrating its 800th year anniversary.
Yes,. 800 years of continuous Masses…through the priest hunting era, and through the famine.
Nothing has stopped the people form going to Mass.
I’m not terribly concerned about the land of his ancestors and where we still own a farm.

I’d recommend this for your personal reading.

tullamoreparish.ie/component/content/article/41-submitted-articles/2207-is-this-the-future-of-the-irish-catholic-church

It’s not really aimed at causing concern, but it does assert that “keeping the show on the road” is not the best approach and that the show is changing, as is the ground that it’s traveling on.

Are you familiar with the Most Rev. Diarmuid Martin? There is a whole lot going on with this particular link, and all of it is quite interesting. However, if you want to focus in on the portion that has to do with education in Ireland, begin with this paragraph.

“Let me look at some examples of the challenges of change that face the Irish Church. There is a growing debate in Ireland about schools and the patronage of schools. I am patron of about 470 primary schools – and patronage is not just an honorary title, it is one with practical consequences. I am responsible for the management of the ethos of those schools, for senior appointments and being a practical man I recognise one particular practical consequence of being Patron, namely, that I am the one who can be sued when legal action takes place.”

Then there’s quite a bit after that continuing on the primary-ed-specific theme. Hope you get a chance to look it over.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

when the british protestants occupied ireland they burned down every catholic church, kept the largest cathedrals as protestant cathedrals and they have not returned them to the irish yet. they burned down all the monasteries stole the land and property. in a small town in the north of ireland they killed every man, woman and child, 5000 people, and gave the now empty land as payment to their generals. they established protestant schools and forced children to recite every day the words “i am a good little protestant child”.

they protestant british were like those monsters you would not like to meet on a dark night in a lonely place.

My first reaction is one of incredulity, as I did not realize there was a Catholic version of Jack Chick working things from the other side. Be that as it may…

Let’s say the Protestants in Ireland were complete monsters that absolutely needed to be dealt with. How do you talk about what should be happening now, and can you do it in a way that doesn’t make me remind you of how two wrongs don’t make a right?

when ireland became a republic, beating the british out, their first annual national budget was 1 million dollars. there was no money in ireland for many decades. the government did not run schools and it was the voluntary and unsupported catholic religious who set up and ran the schools knowing that education not cottage industry and agriculture was the only way irish children would lift themselves out of poverty.

And the Irish did go from being a rather poor country to a quite rich country in an impressively short amount of time, and this was directly related to great education. I will agree with you there, and I’ll point out that any person who happens to live in Ireland would very much like to have high quality education and not have to settle for something of lower quality.

now that ireland is prosperous the largely, if not wholly, atheistic labour party campaigns to remove the primary education system from religious influence. none of the political parties had any interest in organizing education when there was no money in the country and it was those religious with vows of poverty who educated the grandparents and great grandparents of irish labour politicians.

They did a very good job. And now it’s time to make some adjustments in light of changing demographics and a changing situation.

every child in ireland gets an education, no child is barred an education because of religion, in fact if you don’t send your child to school you may in extreme cases run the risk of losing your child.

Every child gets some sort of education, but not every child gets extremely high quality education. The people that are making some noise about this are not worried about their children having no school, they are concerned that their children will have to settle for low quality education obnoxiously far from home in a school that’s overcrowded and overpriced, while the high-quality state-funded school that’s literally right there is effectively saying “Your children will be better off with their education if you just baptize them.”

The Catholic Church did a wonderful job of educating Ireland over the course of several generations. I give them all the credit in the world for that. But the Catholic Church in Ireland does not get to treat that achievement as if were a chit that can be exchanged for sacramental participation.

so when you say things like this, badnewsbarrett, you are parroting a sort of lie. you would be in serious difficulty if you did not send your child to school.

No one is suggesting that non-Catholic Irish children are at risk of being completely uneducated. I hope that what I wrote previously clears that up. Some non-Catholic Irish children are disadvantaged on account of their family’s religion, but they do still get a lower-quality education at greater inconvenience and perhaps at greater cost to their parents. But they do get some form of education, as I am well aware and also a little surprised at the need to clarify this for you.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

I agree with your objection, but I would gather that you are in the beginning stages of what will be a long battle, as more groups demand education, suited to their “beliefs”.

As you offer more secular options, the funding becomes divided. When the state continues to offer faith based for some groups, others will start to demand fair treatment. It just divides the educational system, and $$$ allocated for such, more and more.

I would typically expect a state-funded primary school to be run in a manner that works out acceptably well for Everyone and I mean Everyone who might go there. Ever-more-specified and finely-tailored forms of education is what private schools are for, are they not? State funded schools ought to work for everyone in the state, rather than favoring a specific branch of a particular religion.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

The Guardian.
The Huffington post.

Really?
I’m out.

Yes really. If you’d like to supply anything from a reputable Catholic source you’re more than welcome to do so.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

I married an Irishman too! Smart move on my part.

His parents brought him to the States when he was very wee, so for all intents and purposes, he was raised here.

Our stories differ from there. Once my husband’s parents came to the US, they couldn’t drop Catholicism quickly enough. They both felt unhealthily controlled by the Irish Catholic Church and they longed to recover from it. There recovery consisted of never stepping foot in a church again save for weddings or funerals.

From what I’ve seen, the typical experience of those who question young Irish adults at random is that they get a lot of that too.

youtube.com/watch?v=nCmQsPVLK2E

Edit- although actually, not everyone spoken to in this video is young. The first guy is visibly past middle age.

 

[liturgyluver]

I would typically expect a state-funded primary school to be run in a manner that works out acceptably well for Everyone and I mean Everyone who might go there. Ever-more-specified and finely-tailored forms of education is what private schools are for, are they not? State funded schools ought to work for everyone in the state, rather than favoring a specific branch of a particular religion.

As I said before your expectations are different from those of us who have grown up with and worked in state run religious schools. The point is that catholic (or CofE) schools do work for everyone in the state. The faith aspect underpins the ethos of the school but parents have the right to withdraw their children from religious assemblies or acts of worship if they wish, but in fact very few do. They learn all about other faiths through the agreed curriculum.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

The Guardian.
The Huffington post.

Really?
I’m out.

Irish Times
Irish Register

Here’s an article from The Irish Catholic. The article does say that non-baptized children can lose out when subscribing to certain Church-run schools. It also claims it doesn’t happen as frequently as others claim. There’s a fair bit of hand waving about the importance of not diversifying the patronage and ethos qualifications too much, and how many recent immigrants the schools currently teach. It says the ultimate answer is for the State to build more schools as if that couldn’t be done while at the same time treat all applicants equally while waiting for new schools to be built.

 

[Simca]

Here’s the latest statement on the subject from just yesterday’s news:

broadsheet.ie/2016/01/21/baptism-of-ire/

 

[steido01]

Evidently, well over 90% of state-funded schools in Ireland (and 90% of primary schools taken as a whole) are not truly public schools in any sense, as this vast majority of schools are run and operated by the Catholic Church. In order to maintain a certain Catholic identity, strong preferences are maintained for baptized and (if possible) observant Catholics on staff and in the process of enrolling students. There is a certain order to the list of priorities, with baptized Catholics at the top, unbaptized non-religious at the bottom, and a fair number of other types in between. Additionally, a half-hour out of each school day is set aside for specifically Catholic religious instruction, and there is no opt-out option for non-Catholic children on the occasion when a few of them are able to be there. Again, this happens at state-funded schools.

So what? And why do you care how another country and culture chooses to educate its children? Are the Irish lagging behind the rest of the world in standard of living and education?

The overall effect is that non-observant Catholics in Ireland frequently baptize their kids just so they can get into a good school that’s close by. The earliest possible time at which this my be rectified may be in mid-February when it could be up in a referendum, if not next month it will be an ongoing issue during and following the upcoming election.

Explain why this is something that needs to be ‘rectified.’

All of this is massively inappropriate for state-funded schools

Bad news for you, Barrett. This is an assertion, not a fact. Back it up. Explain why you think this is “massively inappropriate.”

and what I have seen of an argument from the other side seems to consist of pointing out that it does cause people to baptize their children when they wouldn’t do so otherwise, so that makes it a good idea.

Even if this was the sole reason, which it is not, it would be a good enough reason. Baptism is the work of the Holy Spirit, and the beginning of faith. Why should the opportunity for eternal life be denied anyone?

Be forewarned, if this type of religious discrimination (within the context of state-funded schools) is removed, this very next generation of Irish people will come as close to a full stop of Catholic baptisms as we have ever seen in any country. But however you may feel about that- this is the right thing to do.

No, it is not the right thing to do. Do you think that religious schools should receive no government funding? What about religious food pantries? Hospitals run by religions? How about religious people? They don’t need social security or welfare or police or fire protection or military defense – they have their church! Goodness, where will the secularism stop?

 

[Simca]

I don’t live in Ireland. I don’t believe that matters though.

Or perhaps a third option that doesn’t involve a false dichotomy. Are you open to that? I mean, I’m not even going to put the effort into articulating the actual idea if you’re just going to ignore it and look at straw men.

Straw men like this one. How do you not see that?

I’d recommend ending the prioritization of placement based on religion or religious observance, instead simply educating everyone in a whole district unless private enrollment is in play. And perhaps be flexible enough to allow non-Catholic and/or non-religious the ability to opt out of organized religion while at school.

Why do some people feel the need to make things up and then attribute them to people? I’ve never understood that. You need to stop it.

The option to opt out of religious teaching is already provided for in the constitution. See this link: constitutionproject.ie/?p=554

it would be illegal for the parents not to get their child to school.

This ‘fable’ is thrown up by the atheists, every with the few months, along with the financial backing of Amnesty International. The numbers of so-called people stating they ‘have’ to get their children baptised to obtain a place in a school, is miniscule and also completely incorrect, as all children, by law, ‘must’ be allocated a place in a school, in Ireland.

Far from being a straw man, is the eventual secular laws which would ultimately follow as more and more religion is taken out of our schools. Our parish is connected to a school and the children come to mass on First Fridays. For some, it may be the only time when they hear the word of God.

What a shame it would be if eventually, like in America, a child could potentially get into trouble by bringing a Bible to school.

 

[Peter_J]

I have been hearing for some time that religious observance, new priests, and self-identified Catholic identity and beliefs have all been taking a nosedive in the Republic of Ireland. So I poked around to see how Catholic baptisms and marriages have been doing. Evidently, most Irish people continue to show up at their parish a handful of times in life in order to observe the essential rites and then they do nothing more. Part of this has to do with family pressure, force of habit and so forth. But there is one other specific reason for why Irish people continue to be just about as likely to baptize their children Catholic as they ever were.

Evidently, well over 90% of state-funded schools in Ireland (and 90% of primary schools taken as a whole) are not truly public schools in any sense, as this vast majority of schools are run and operated by the Catholic Church. In order to maintain a certain Catholic identity, strong preferences are maintained for baptized and (if possible) observant Catholics on staff and in the process of enrolling students. There is a certain order to the list of priorities, with baptized Catholics at the top, unbaptized non-religious at the bottom, and a fair number of other types in between. Additionally, a half-hour out of each school day is set aside for specifically Catholic religious instruction, and there is no opt-out option for non-Catholic children on the occasion when a few of them are able to be there. Again, this happens at state-funded schools.

Hi. I’m sympathetic to your concern that people are being offered material incentives for becoming Catholic.

However, this seems to me like one of those bills in Congress with a “rider” attached to it. What I mean is, on to that concern you have piggybacked an attack on the “half-hour out of each school day … set aside for specifically Catholic religious instruction”. That’s where I’m less sympathetic to your post.

 

[pepipop]

The option to opt out of religious teaching is already provided for in the constitution. See this link: constitutionproject.ie/?p=554

Far from being a straw man, is the eventual secular laws which would ultimately follow as more and more religion is taken out of our schools. Our parish is connected to a school and the children come to mass on First Fridays. For some, it may be the only time when they hear the word of God.

What a shame it would be if eventually, like in America, a child could potentially get into trouble by bringing a Bible to school.

Completely agree, the divil will have won if he gets to win this battle - i.e. secularisation of all schools in Ireland. They’d need to take a referendum about it, as the last poll of parents, only 4-8% of parents responded that would prefer secularisation with a very low response rate overall.

I would hope, if it occurred, that Catholic lay groups would be set up to teach students in the faith on Sats/Sundays (i.e. take them off their parents hands for the day ).

Most families have two working parents hence taking the time to get their children through Holy communion and confirmation (without assistance from the schools), will definitely go by the wayside - ‘unless’ it’s of benefit to the parents, in some way, i.e. they get a break on a Sat or Sun each week.

But maybe that’s going too far down the road…a referendum would indicate what people want to happen, in the first instance, rather than having to listen to the secular press and atheist government officials.

 

[Tablefor9]

As I’m 2 generations from Ireland, I’ll be staying out of it. I will say that it’s insanity to export our nation’s ideas about separation of Church and State as though they were of given value superior to other perspectives.

 

[pepipop]

This never ceases to amaze me, how such a non-story by ‘one’ person who states her son cannot get into school because he’s not baptised - becomes international news.

Most schools are over subscribed to in the first place, especially in Dublin where most of the population resides. The government needs to build more schools, and they can secularise them anyway they want. There are non-Catholics, at Catholic schools, all over Ireland as all children must get a school place.

Possibly the child’s name wasn’t given to any school, until the last moment and all the places were taken.

independent.ie/irish-news/irish-mothers-struggle-to-get-her-nonbaptised-son-into-statefunded-school-makes-headlines-in-the-us-34388801.html

Irish mother’s struggle to get her non-baptised son into state-funded school makes headlines in the US

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Here’s the latest statement on the subject from just yesterday’s news:

broadsheet.ie/2016/01/21/baptism-of-ire/

The most salient point on that page is actually from the first comment on the article, regarding parents baptizing their kids to get into these schools:

Not so much that they shouldn’t – more that they shouldn’t have to. And the same goes for parents.

And this PR-savvy cleric has it in his power to change that – so less lip service and more actual action would be welcome.

So what?

The freedom to choose one’s faith shouldn’t inhibit one’s ability to be educated. These two principles are basic human rights and there is no reason that they be at odds with each other.

And why do you care how another country and culture chooses to educate its children?

One should never limit what they care about to things that only directly affect them.

Are the Irish lagging behind the rest of the world in standard of living and education?

Defending rights has nothing to do with the monetary value of doing so.

Explain why this is something that needs to be ‘rectified.’

Bad news for you, Barrett. This is an assertion, not a fact. Back it up. Explain why you think this is “massively inappropriate.”

I won’t speak for badnewsbarrett, but one merely has to look at 17th and early-18th century United States where many Catholics were subject to anti-Catholic laws and whose children were taught by schools with anti-Catholic biases. We should learn from our history and rectify unfairness with fairness, not more unfairness.

Even if this was the sole reason, which it is not, it would be a good enough reason. Baptism is the work of the Holy Spirit, and the beginning of faith. Why should the opportunity for eternal life be denied anyone?

Because it’s done under compulsion.

No, it is not the right thing to do. Do you think that religious schools should receive no government funding?

In instances like this where the Church is for the most part the only game in town, the Church should be paid for providing education to the public. With that public money the Church should not make demands of the citizens who in some cases have no local school to turn to and show such bias.

What about religious food pantries?

So long as they feed those outside of its faith as well as in it, then I am for providing them with public money.

Hospitals run by religions?

Again, so long as they care for those outside of the faith as well as in it, then I for providing them with public money.

How about religious people? They don’t need social security or welfare or police or fire protection or military defense – they have their church! Goodness, where will the secularism stop?

Assuming you are using the correct meaning of secularism (that the government should not favoritism for or bias against particular faith(s) or non-faith) then the answer is that it shouldn’t stop.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

This never ceases to amaze me, how such a non-story by ‘one’ person who states her son cannot get into school because he’s not baptised - becomes international news.

Do a search on “ireland school patronage” and you’ll see many articles on the matter. It’s not just about one son.

Most schools are over subscribed to in the first place, especially in Dublin where most of the population resides. The government needs to build more schools, and they can secularise them anyway they want. There are non-Catholics, at Catholic schools, all over Ireland as all children must get a school place.

Yes more schools need to be built. The populace is outpacing the number of schools. The Church has had inroads to schools in Ireland for sometime. But until those schools are built, it’s not asking much of anything for the Church to treat the citizens of these cities fairly, especially considering they get taxpayer money from those very same citizens.

 

[pepipop]

Do a search on “ireland school patronage” and you’ll see many articles on the matter. It’s not just about one son.

Yes more schools need to be built. The populace is outpacing the number of schools. The Church has had inroads to schools in Ireland for sometime. But until those schools are built, it’s not asking much of anything for the Church to treat the citizens of these cities fairly, especially considering they get taxpayer money from those very same citizens.

Yes, and the stories are 90% in relation to ‘one’ child that ‘had’ to get baptised to get into a school. A poll was already taken of parents in relation to the issue, and only 28-35% of parents bothered to respond, with only 4-8% of all parents saying they would prefer non-Catholic schools.

A referendum is required, that would hopefully put it all to bed, as Amnesty Int and other groups, e.g. Atlantic Philanthropies are funding the atheist groups, in the ROI and NI, to try to get religion out of schools.

Yes, more schools need to be built.

 

[Simca]

(Here’s another link to this article: broadsheet.ie/2016/01/21/baptism-of-ire/ )

the most salient point on that page is actually from the first comment on the article, regarding parents baptizing their kids to get into these schools:

The freedom to choose one’s faith shouldn’t inhibit one’s ability to be educated. These two principles are basic human rights and there is no reason that they be at odds with each other.

To me the most important point, and the main issue of the article, is the Archbishop’s statement itself:

Priests should not baptise children whose parents are just trying to get them into better schools, the Archbishop of Dublin [Diarmuid Martin] has said.

…”It’s [just] not this baptismal certificate – it’s a religious … entry into the life of the church, and to baptise somebody for any other reasons is wrong.

“Parents, you know, shouldn’t be presenting children to be baptised in that way – but priests shouldn’t be doing it either.”

The Archbishop re-affirms the sacredness of baptism and confirms the official position that this should not be done.

So, far from being the norm or a nation-wide policy, there is really no reason for Christians world-wide to rally against this and sign a petition.