Irish abuse report is 'shocking'

[Cinette]

In my post #126 I posted an article “Chastity’s Challenge” which I found in a Catholic publication in 1999.

I have read it many, many times and have shared it with many people.

Am I the only person on this thread who appreciates the truth, depth and beauty of this insightful article?

Nobody had made any comments. I might as well have not posted it at all!

It is unbelievable!
:crying:

 

[Cinette]

Where was Christ while all those children were being abused ? ​

A very absent help in trouble, as usual. He’s useless - why not worship someone or something that will actually be some use ?

Gottle of Geer! You have been on these forums for some time I see - what with 10 420 postings!!!

And you mean to say that you have learned *NOTHING *on CAF?

It blows my mind! You know nothing about Christianity and Jesus Christ! You have to develop a power of analysis through some study and knowledge of Christianity. Otherwise what are you doing on CAF?

 

[cknick]

It’s good to remember that moderate corporal discipline is not only moral, it is necessary for a virtuous life.

It was often done to excess in the past, but was common in all circles. Now it is neglected, commonly in all circles – and now, children grow up without the ability to restrain themselves from any pleasures, sinful or not.

The price of physical pain is worth the salvation of a soul. It is not a moral evil to discipline people physically. However, in these amoral times, it is viewed as such because in times when pleasure is the only moral law, what is immoral is pain.

1. What is bothering me is the fact that people are making ridiculous blanket statements without reading this inquiry. THIS INQUIRY COVERED UP UNTIL 1989. If you read the inquiry you would know the period of time, and the severity of the abuse. I don’t believe you would be making the statements you are making, if you read the inquiry.
2. Children grow up without the ability to control themselves? My children know how…I have 1 who is going off to to a univversity next year, and who has donated 300 hours of community service at our parish…another blanket statement.

3)Saying pain is immoral is??? Pain is the result of stimulus…it is neither moral or immoral.

 

[Sonic]

Just say the word Catholic to some Protestants and they immediately gloat and want to tell you stories of “baaaaad” priests again and again and again!

Why not talk about the thousands of good Holy men who sacrifice their lives for others. Huh?

Think about it. Do you want to be a person who really seeks the truth or do you prefer to be a gossip and one who simply loves to gloat about a small number of priests who have betrayed the Body of Christ?

Do you want to focus on the tares or the wheat?

That’s part of these individual’s agenda. If they can’t convert a Catholic to their way of thinking, they try to destroy a Catholic’s faith. In that way, they believe they remove a person from defending the Church, and leave future generations to be converted over to their way of thinking. Hence, they continuously parade the Church’s dirty laundry like a banner: never willing to help fix the problem but always willing to call out “Crucify Him” every chance they get! It’s the same jackbooted mantra created by the enemy since the beginning of time. Nothing changes except for the hearts and minds of men.

I for one thank the anti-Catholics. Their bigotry has only cemented my commitment to stay Catholic.

 

[Sonic]

BBC: Irish abuse report is “shocking”

The Catholic League’s response to this article:

Source of this quote: catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1616

HYSTERIA OVER IRISH CLERGY ABUSE

May 20, 2009

After nine years of investigation, Ireland’s Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse has published its findings. More than 30,000 children, most of them delinquents, passed through one or more of Ireland’s Catholic-run institutions from the 1920s through the 1980s.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on the report today:

Reuters is reporting that “Irish Priests Beat, Raped Children,” yet the report does not justify this wild and irresponsible claim. Four types of abuse are noted: physical, sexual, neglect and emotional. Physical abuse includes “being kicked”; neglect includes “inadequate heating”; and emotional abuse includes “lack of attachment and affection.” Not nice, to be sure, but hardly draconian, especially given the time line: fully 82 percent of the incidents took place before 1970. As the New York Times noted, “many of them [are] now more than 70 years old.” And quite frankly, corporal punishment was not exactly unknown in many homes during these times, and this is doubly true when dealing with miscreants.

Regarding sexual abuse, “kissing,” and “non-contact including voyeurism” (e.g., what it labels as “inappropriate sexual talk”) make the grade as constituting sexual abuse. Moreover, one-third of the cases involved “inappropriate fondling and contact.” None of this is defensible, but none of it qualifies as rape. Rape, on the other hand, constituted 12 percent of the cases. As for the charge that “Irish Priests” were responsible, some of the abuse was carried out by lay persons, much of it was done by Brothers, and about 12 percent of the abusers were priests (most of whom were not rapists).

The Irish report suffers from conflating minor instances of abuse with serious ones, thus demeaning the latter. When most people hear of the term abuse, they do not think about being slapped, being chilly, being ignored or, for that matter, having someone stare at you in the shower. They think about rape.

By cheapening rape, the report demeans the big victims. But, of course, there is a huge market for such distortions, especially when the accused is the Catholic Church.

 

[Sonic]

Where was Christ while all those children were being abused ? ​

A very absent help in trouble, as usual. He’s useless - why not worship someone or something that will actually be some use ?

And the drama of the Passion of Christ still unfolds before us to this day… condemning the man for the sins of others… Ecce Homo!

Matthew 26: 57-68

57 But they holding Jesus led him to Caiphas the high priest, where the scribes and the ancients were assembled.

58 And Peter followed him afar off, even to the court of the high priest, And going in, he sat with the servants, that he might see the end.

59 And the chief priests and the whole council sought false witness against Jesus (like news articles about abuse in the Church), that they might put him to death.

60 And they found not, whereas many false witnesses had come in . And last of all there came two false witnesses:

61 And they said: This man said, I am able to destroy the temple of God and after three days to rebuild it.

62 And the high priest rising up, said to him: Answerest thou nothing to the things which these witness against thee?

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his garments, saying: He hath blasphemed: What further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard the blasphemy.

**66 What think you? But they answering, said: He is guilty of death.

67 Then did they spit in his face and buffeted him. And others struck his face with the palms of their hands,

68 Saying: Prophesy unto us, O Christ. Who is he that struck thee?**

 

[redrosetea]

The Catholic League’s response to this article:

Source of this quote: catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1616

Thank you. I am sure there are some terrible abuses that did occur and from that the press were whipped into a fevered frenzy making everything look like abuse, including a smack with the flat of an open hand on the leg

Every kid I ever knew had this happen to them by their parents and sometimes teachers and relatives

If poor living conditions such as cold rooms are taken in to consideration, many people are abusers including that school Prince Charles attended, that had the boys sleep with open windows during the winter

I don’t want to make light of real suffering and abuse…I believe the man that testified but I also think he could be looking back at the incident with the eyes of a child and have stretched the time frame he was beaten I doubt that a young child could have endured being beaten by 2 men for an hr nonstop, naked , and not have sustained injuries so severe he would had required medical attention

I suspect he was raped, and even beaten, but not for an hr straight by 2 men…I am not implying he is lying only that he is still so traumatized he is a bit confused

 

[AlexisLivia]

Any evidence to back this up? I’m not saying it doesn’t happen everywhere, but it doesn’t seem pandemic in any other church. I mean, “do a google search” is not exactly convincing proof. Based on my personal experience in which someone close to me was abused by a Catholic priest, but it was never, to this day, revealed, suggests to me that we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg with the Catholic Priests abusing innocents. The other problem is that the Magesterium systematically covered it up with Bishops moving repeat offenders around on unsuspecting parishes. The Magesterium was complicit in this.

For starters, try this article: catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0011.html, which states that an analysis by a non-Catholic scholar (Philip Jenkins in Pedophiles and Priests) showed that: “only one out of 2,252 priests considered over a thirty-year period was afflicted with pedophilia. In the recent Boston scandal, only four of the more than eighty priests labeled by the media as “pedophiles” are actually guilty of molesting young children”; "while the total number of sexual abusers in the priesthood is much higher than those guilty of pedophilia, it still amounts to less than 2 percent — comparable to the rate among married men"; and "In the wake of the current crisis in the Church, other religious denominations and non-religious institutions have admitted to having similar problems with both pedophilia and ephebophilia among the ranks of their clergy. There’s no evidence that Catholic prelates are more likely to be pedophiles than Protestant ministers, Jewish leaders, physicians, or any other institution in which adults are in a position of authority and power over children."

“Less than 2 percent” is hardy “pandemic,” wouldn’t you agree?

I realize that suggesting you google is a little lame, but there is so much out there that I can’t reproduce it all here. All I’m suggesting is that, if you are really interested, you can google any denomination and “sexual abuse” or “pedophilia” and you will be amazed what you will find (IOW, you won’t have read about it in the NY Times!). Here’s a couple:
stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm (Baptist Church)
rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html (Anglican Church in Australia)
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2497199.stm (Anglican Church in Canada)

My point is that sexual abuse occurs in every denomination and every profession and most of all within families. The idea that every Catholic priest is an abuser makes as much sense as saying all married men, all clergy, or for that matter, all doctors, teachers, counselors, coaches are. If your child were abused by a pediatrician, would you claim all pediatricians are child abusers?

As for your anecdotal evidence, my Episcopalian neighbors have uncovered TWO instances of sexual abuse of their two children by a male cousin and a male uncle, and the family members refuse to deal with it and have, in fact, cut off contact with them (they admit it happened but will not deal with it, saying they are stirring up trouble over something that happened a long time ago). Is this “the tip of the iceberg” too?

Thank God for our priests – where would we be without them?

 

[cknick]

Personally, I will take this report with a pinch-of-salt… all to often these “official” reports are nothing but fluff to throw around.

Does every child that has had a cane taken to their backside the sufferer of abuse? Hell… most people will tell you giving an inerrant child a good talking-to is abuse. This report claims over 20,000 – some reports of which are coming from second-hand sources – persons suffered physical and sexual abuse. How many cases were sexual, and how many were physical, and what was the nature of this pshyical abuse?

By todays standards, most of what was going on in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s was abusive. Personally, I believe it is todays standards that are a little off base. And this is coming from a seventeen-year old.

I want to know more about what is actually in this report and how much we can take as fact.

This went on until twenty years ago. Here is the link to the report…try not to get sick to your stomach…

childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/CICA-VOL3-07.pdf

 

[cknick]

Thank you. I am sure there are some terrible abuses that did occur and from that the press were whipped into a fevered frenzy making everything look like abuse, including a smack with the flat of an open hand on the leg

Every kid I ever knew had this happen to them by their parents and sometimes teachers and relatives

If poor living conditions such as cold rooms are taken in to consideration, many people are abusers including that school Prince Charles attended, that had the boys sleep with open windows during the winter

I don’t want to make light of real suffering and abuse…I believe the man that testified but I also think he could be looking back at the incident with the eyes of a child and have stretched the time frame he was beaten I doubt that a young child could have endured being beaten by 2 men for an hr nonstop, naked , and not have sustained injuries so severe he would had required medical attention

I suspect he was raped, and even beaten, but not for an hr straight by 2 men…I am not implying he is lying only that he is still so traumatized he is a bit confused

Here is the link to the actual abuse report. Read this entire article, then go back and re-read what you just wrote…

childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/CICA-VOL3-07.pdf

 

[Sonic]

I’ll just post the first part of the chapter posted. This information is important along with the footnotes. I made some interesting facts in bold for those interested. I encourage others to read through the whole report and try to make the number of witnesses fit the amount of reports… and also try to separate the types of abuse accordingly.

7.01 - This chapter describes the nature and extent of abuse reported in evidence to the Committee by 413 male witnesses in relation to 26 Industrial and Reformatory Schools in Ireland. The 413 witnesses made 482 reports of abuse regarding the four types of abuse defined by the Acts.1 Those four types are physical and sexual abuse, neglect and emotional abuse. **]Not all 26 Schools were reported for each of the four types of abuse.

7.02 - The report of abuse by a witness may either refer to descriptions of single episodes or to multiple experiences** of being abused in a School. In most instances reports of abuse refer to more than one episode of abuse and more than one type of abuse. One hundred and sixty six (166) witness reports (34%) were of all four types of abuse. Sixty eight (68) witnesses reported abuse in more than one School.

7.03 - The chapter is divided into five parts, addressing each of the four abuse types and describing what was known about the abuse at the time it occurred. The reports of abuse compiled in this chapter refer to admissions and discharges to Schools between 1922 and 1989. Twenty four (24) of these reports refer to abuse in both Schools and ‘Other Institutions’. All the reports of abuse in relation to ‘Other Institutions’ are referred to elsewhere in the Report.2, 3

7.04 - For the purpose of compiling this Report, **witness evidence is presented by period of discharge as follows: pre-1960s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. Witnesses, who were discharged in one period, may have spent time in out-of-home care in the previous decade(s).

7.05 - As previously stated a number of witnesses were admitted to more than one School and reported abuse in more than one School. Three hundred and twenty five (325) witnesses made reports about abuse in one School**, the other 68 witnesses reported as follows: 4

• Sixty three (63) witnesses reported abuse in two Schools.
• One witness reported abuse in three different Schools.
• Three (3) witnesses reported abuse in two Schools and one ‘Other Institution’.
• One witness reported abuse in two Schools and two ‘Other Institutions’.
• Twenty (20) witnesses reported abuse in one School and one ‘Other Institution’.

Foot Notes:

1 A number of witnesses were admitted to more than one School, and made reports of abuse in more than one School, therefore the number of reports are greater than the number of witnesses.

**2 ‘Other Institutions’ – includes: general, specialist and rehabilitation hospitals, foster homes, national and secondary schools, children’s homes, laundries, Noviciates, hostels and special needs schools (both day and residential) that provided care and education for children with intellectual, visual, hearing or speech impairments and others. **

3 See chapters 12-18.

**4 For example: as witness evidence is presented according to the decade of discharge, a witness who spent 12 years in a school and was discharged in 1962 will have been included in the 1960s cohort although the majority of that witness’s experience will relate to the 1950s. **

Going through these pages, it would seem the the Catholic League’s assessment of this report is accurate. Plus, it would seem that not all of the witnesses were abused, but observers of the abuse (7.258 -7.261).

Also, it would seem that some of the abuse was done by their peers.

7.252 - Thirty two (32) witnesses reported being ostracized by their peers or were otherwise isolated while resident in the Schools. This was a practice for punishing returned absconders in a number of Schools. Witnesses also reported being physically isolated in the infirmaries following a severe beating while their bruises and injuries healed. They reported being confined to bed for days or weeks without contact with their peers or co-residents. A small number of witnesses reported being locked in animal sheds and outhouses as punishment for perceived misdemeanours.

The bad part is that this sort of thing was going on in Juvenile Halls and other state run facilities in the United States. Sad, but it’s true. It’s still going on. One only need to look at reports of neglect and abuse in health and mental institutions which took place during the same era (and in many cases are still going on).

 

[benedictus2]

The bad part is that this sort of thing was going on in Juvenile Halls and other state run facilities in the United States. Sad, but it’s true. It’s still going on. One only need to look at reports of neglect and abuse in health and mental institutions which took place (and in many cases are still going on).

Seriously!!! No kidding!!! But isn’t this supposed to happen only Catholic institutions!!!

 

[pnewton]

I
Going through these pages, it would seem the the Catholic League’s assessment of this report is accurate. Plus, it would seem that not all of the witnesses were abused, but observers of the abuse (7.258 -7.261).

I too read the report a while back and noticed the same thing. Nothing detracts from the real problem of child abuse as a broadening of the definition for the sake of building statistics. I also think it bears mentioning that the methodology recording complaints and provided anonymity.

There is there for no way of knowing how much is true and how much is lies motivated by less than pure motives.

 

[Sonic]

Seriously!!! No kidding!!! But isn’t this supposed to happen only Catholic institutions!!!

Shhhh… you wouldn’t want to deprive the Witch Inquisitors of their thunder. After all… they’ve spent so much time building a lovely bonfire out of sticks for us Catholics.

 

[cknick]

Shhhh… you wouldn’t want to deprive the Witch Inquisitors of their thunder. After all… they’ve spent so much time building a lovely bonfire out of sticks for us Catholics.

I’m a Roman catholic too. what you need to realize is the link was the report on male abuse. The numbers don’t even consider female abuse.
The great thing about our faith is that we can look at this and learn from the experiences about what to do differently, and how to avoid this in the future. If you think physical abuse doesn’t occur still, you’re wrong, so we need to look at this from a conversion perspective, and NOT be on the defensive. If we are on the defensive, then we are running from the truth and transparency that God has placed before our eyes, in filial disobedience.

 

[benedictus2]

I’m a Roman catholic too. what you need to realize is the link was the report on male abuse. The numbers don’t even consider female abuse.
The great thing about our faith is that we can look at this and learn from the experiences about what to do differently, and how to avoid this in the future. If you think physical abuse doesn’t occur still, you’re wrong, so we need to look at this from a conversion perspective, and NOT be on the defensive. If we are on the defensive, then we are running from the truth and transparency that God has placed before our eyes, in filial disobedience.

No we are not naive about abuse. We know it still occurs. God has allowed it for some reason. If He wants to He can eradicate it with just one word. If He wanted to, we would all be sinless since Christ has already paid for our sins. But this is not how it is.

I agree. Expose all sorts of abuse and be diligent about it. We must really be vigilant and nag the authorities where necessary. Only exposure of these activities will make the perpetrators think twice.

But I also know that the Church is Christ’s Church and Christ knows what He is on about. Sin does not have the last word.

 

[Cinette]

That’s part of these individual’s agenda. If they can’t convert a Catholic to their way of thinking, they try to destroy a Catholic’s faith. In that way, they believe they remove a person from defending the Church, and leave future generations to be converted over to their way of thinking. Hence, they continuously parade the Church’s dirty laundry like a banner: never willing to help fix the problem but always willing to call out “Crucify Him” every chance they get! It’s the same jackbooted mantra created by the enemy since the beginning of time. Nothing changes except for the hearts and minds of men.

I for one thank the anti-Catholics. Their bigotry has only cemented my commitment to stay Catholic.

It seems that to be Catholic is not politically correct!

 

[Cinette]

Thank you. I am sure there are some terrible abuses that did occur and from that the press were whipped into a fevered frenzy making everything look like abuse, including a smack with the flat of an open hand on the leg

Every kid I ever knew had this happen to them by their parents and sometimes teachers and relatives

If poor living conditions such as cold rooms are taken in to consideration, many people are abusers including that school Prince Charles attended, that had the boys sleep with open windows during the winter

I don’t want to make light of real suffering and abuse…I believe the man that testified but I also think he could be looking back at the incident with the eyes of a child and have stretched the time frame he was beaten I doubt that a young child could have endured being beaten by 2 men for an hr nonstop, naked , and not have sustained injuries so severe he would had required medical attention

I suspect he was raped, and even beaten, but not for an hr straight by 2 men…I am not implying he is lying only that he is still so traumatized he is a bit confused

I attended a Catholic boarding school in the 50s and I have many fond memories of the school. In fact I believe the nuns saved my sanity.

However, after reading some of these posts I realise that I must have been abused! Why? Our matresses were stuffed with coir - a natural fibre which looks a bit like the fibre on the outer husk of a coconut. The location of the Convent was in an area which was rather cold at night in winter and we used to put newspapers between the mattress and the iron beds to insulate and keep us warm (about half a dozen of us did that). Gosh, I was abused and I didn’t know it!!

And now? What happens to my fond happy memories of my Convent school?

Oh maaannn! Do I report this to the media? It will sell newspapers - that’s for sure!

 

[Cinette]

I am by nature bold and cheeky and I speak up. If anyone had laid a hand on me as a child I would have screamed blue murder! I do realise that not everyone is like me and that sometimes shyness can prevent one from reacting, especially when one is being abused by a trusted family member or friend.

But here is a story I saw on CNN (I think) a few years ago - during the time of the scandal of abuse by some priests. I will try to reproduce it and I might get some of the details wrong but the crux of the story is absolutely correct.

An ex golf pro in America (I remember he had silver hair although he was not old - maybe early 50s or even late 40s) was telling of his abuse by a priest as a child. The priest was a family friend also and would often be invited to dinner at the home of the young boy. I understand the abuse began when the boy was about 9ish and went on until high school.

Later when the abused person got married he asked the Priest to perform the marriage ceremony!!!

Now who in his right mind would ask a Priest who had abused him for years to officiate at his wedding?:bigyikes:

 

[Tybourne]

Is it time to move beyond lamenting and decrying what has happened in Ireland? Maybe it’s too early to do so. But, if it is time to look more carefully at how and why this happened, I think we should consider clericalism as a culprit.

Rusell Shaw has written an excellent article in which he defines this scourge on the Church as follows:

Clericalism, however, is not an affirmation of these sacred realities but a caricature. It fosters an ecclesiastical caste system in which clerics comprise the dominant elite, with lay people serving as a passive, inert mass of spear-carriers tasked with receiving clerical tutelage and doing what they’re told. This upstairs-downstairs way of understanding relationships and roles in the Church extends even to the spiritual life: priests are called to be saints, lay people are called to satisfy the legalistic minimum of Christian life and scrape by into purgatory.

These sentiments are reminiscent of the Venerable John Henry Newman, who deplored the ‘lust for servility’ that he found in the Church (a caveat- it’s no better when this is replaced with a lust for power).

Shaw quotes the report on the U.S. sexual abuse crisis, which sets forth the link to clericalism cogently:

Clerical culture and a misplaced sense of loyalty made some priests look the other way . . . . Clericalism also contributed to a culture of secrecy. In many instances, Church leaders valued confidentiality and a priest’s right to privacy above the prevention of further harm to victims . . . . [C]hurch leaders kept information from parishioners and other dioceses that should have been provided to them. Some also pressured victims not to inform the authorities or the public of abuse (Causes and Context of the Sexual Abuse Crisis, 2004).(emphases added)