Irish bishop urges end to celibacy in clergy

[PbloPicasso]

As an Eastern Catholic, I already mentioned that I regard my current priest as one of the best I’ve had as a pastor. I don’t really attribute it to him being married, but more of seeing that marriage has not diminished his ability to be a good priest, as some would claim.

The only problem I see is that in many predominantly Roman Catholic places, the culture would need to shift dramatically to accommodate having a married priesthood. In Ukraine for example, priests are highly regarded in the culture and there are cultural norms with women dating seminarians. Western countries do not have that in their societies so it can be pretty messy.

Our ECF Forum regular and top contributor, Alexander Roman, I believe is the son of a Ukrainian Catholic priest. If you wish to ask for his perspective on the matter.

This is one of many reasons I’ve contemplated switching rites.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is one of many reasons I’ve contemplated switching rites.

I think the best reason is always the pursuit of the authentic spirituality of the East, as something that will grow your own spirituality.

I must say I have a very Latin viewpoint on the married priesthood prior to my switch. But my eyes have been opened. A lot of stereotypes thrown around here is simply not true. For one thing the wife participates in the ministry of the husband. Its not like the wife lives a life contrary to the life of the husband. I have yet to see a wife of a priest in the East who is not involved deeply in the ministry of the husband. As noted by an earlier poster that St. Paul commented that a married one would seek to satisfy their spouse first before God. I would say this is true for secular people like myself. I do volunteer a lot of my time to the Church, but when my wife demands it, she is priority 1 for me. But for priests, both the priest and his wife devote their lives to God. That is why wives of priests are called “presbyteria”. It literally means “female priests”, its an honorific title but while they do not receive any ordination nor perform Liturgical priestly duties, they are heavily involved in the ministry of the husband. Our presbyteria for example leads singing during Liturgy. Also if there are special events in the parish, she helps runs. There are those who would clean the parish, wash the linens, etc. And even the wife of our presbyteria embroidered the cloth for our tables (the altar or Holy Table, table of preparation, and tetrapod) which we started using Easter this year.

 

[JM3]

It talks about those who marry after ordination.

Canon 10. They who have been made deacons, declaring when they were ordained that they must marry, because they were not able to abide so, and who afterwards have married, shall continue in their ministry, because it was conceded to them by the bishop. But if any were silent on this matter, undertaking at their ordination to abide as they were, and afterwards proceeded to marriage, these shall cease from the diaconate.

Instead of focusing on one word, read it in context.

‘declaring when they were ordained’ - ‘it was conceded to them by the bishop’

This is a special dispensation when they are ordained and not the norm.

Tradition is that Peter was martyred together with his wife in Rome.

The Golden Legend? Really?

I’ve always assumed Peter was married, even during the time Jesus handed him the keys.

Matthew says the mother-in-law ministered to them, which is the role of the wife, suggesting that the wife is not there.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Instead of focusing on one word, read it in context.

‘declaring when they were ordained’ - ‘it was conceded to them by the bishop’

This is a special dispensation when they are ordained and not the norm.

There is a dispensation today for widower deacons with young children to get married again. I see it as the same thing. Marriage after ordination.

The Golden Legend? Really?

What? How is this tradition any more than what Roman Catholics seem to believe that Peter was already a widower at the time of Jesus?

Matthew says the mother-in-law ministered to them, which is the role of the wife, suggesting that the wife is not there.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 9:5[/BIBLEDRB]

Since it is St. Paul who writes this, clearly he has met and seen the wife of Cephas.

 

[Brendan]

I agree with that. But it seems that most see sex as something dirty, .

Are you saying that most Latin Rite priests see sex as being something dirty?

If so, can you site some proof on that? There must be something on which you would base an accusation of such unCatholic attitudes on a large portion of the clergy.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Are you saying that most Latin Rite priests see sex as being something dirty?

No, I get this from the laity.

If so, can you site some proof on that? There must be something on which you would base an accusation of such unCatholic attitudes on a large portion of the clergy.

I never said it was the priests who said that. Maybe show me a proof I said it was the priest who said that before accusing me which is an unCatholic attitude?

 

[Brendan]

Since it is St. Paul who writes this, clearly he has met and seen the wife of Cephas.

Not necessarily. Could it not be that St. Peter’s wife had passed away?

The tradtion of the Church is that she suffered martyrdom, but no timeframe is given. It certainly could have been before the conversion of St. Paul ( it could even have been at the hands of Saul of Tarsus)

 

[JM3]

There is a dispensation today for widower deacons with young children to get married again. I see it as the same thing. Marriage after ordination.

One gets a dispensation, so it should be the norm for all?

Whatever.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I agree with that. But it seems that most see sex as something dirty, even if used for its intended purpose (procreation between a man and his wife). What you have here is correct, but having this view doesn’t mean that the opposite (a married priesthood) is bad. No one disagrees, even in the East, that celibacy is a higher calling. What is wrong that I am pointing out is the view by most that a married priest is a bad thing. It isn’t. Jesus called for celibacy as a higher calling as well, but didn’t think twice in handing over the keys of His Church to a married man. Just because one is higher doesn’t mean the other is lower. Its a case of good and better, not a good and bad.

I understand what your saying and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Just to be clear though you think it would be a good idea for the West to adopt the Eastern practice? Does this mean you’re pro-Easternization of the Latin Rite? Sorry I couldn’t resist, but I hope you can understand that some of us Latins like it the way it is.

God Bless.

 

[JM3]

1 Corinthians 9:5 (Douay Rheims)
5 Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

Doesn’t the greek translation mean ‘female assistant’?

 

[ConstantineTG]

One gets a dispensation, so it should be the norm for all?

Whatever.

I’m not arguing for marriage AFTER ordination. I’m saying that married men should be admitted to the priesthood.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I understand what your saying and I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. Just to be clear though you think it would be a good idea for the West to adopt the Eastern practice? Does this mean you’re pro-Easternization of the Latin Rite? Sorry I couldn’t resist, but I hope you can understand that some of us Latins like it the way it is.

God Bless.

There’s nothing wrong with learning from another tradition and adopting their practices as long as it is not forced upon. If the Latin Rite will do away with everything Eastern, then you’d all be pagans. Because the faith came from the East, in Jerusalem.

Also, the way it is is that there are more married Latin Rite priests in North America than there are married Eastern Rite priests.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

There’s nothing wrong with learning from another tradition and adopting their practices as long as it is not forced upon.

Not really the vibe I get from the EC’s I have encountered, but I will take your word for it.

If the Latin Rite will do away with everything Eastern, then you’d all be pagans. Because the faith came from the East, in Jerusalem.

Came from the East but set up HQ in the West.

Also, the way it is is that there are more married Latin Rite priests in North America than there are married Eastern Rite priests.

It would be nice to see a source for this.

 

[holmj2674]

Another thought… If the Eucharist is the very summit of the Catholic Church as the Catechism seems to point out, and that it is the single most important avenue of grace to us as Catholic Christians and it can only be administered by a priest and not a deacon or other religious then we have a serious conflict of interest. What is more important to the Church… its rigid doctrine of priestly celibacy or the administration of the most holy body and blood of our savior Jesus Christ? We need to choose… Parishes in rural areas lack priests, the Eucharist is not even celebrated every weekend in some Parishes. A priest in Iowa may have to split his time between three different church communities every Sunday… how is that being an effective Shepard for his flock(s)? We need to get our priorities straight here.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I would agree that marriage in the Protestant communities has not really solved any problems. Suburban parishes have a glut of clergy, while the poor and rural parishes are even worse off than ours.

Imagine when a bishop needs to send not only a priest, but his family, to a distant rural parish! Protestant spouses have been very reluctant to make such moves.

As far as optimizing the laity ( nuns are technically laity), that has some promise, but does little to relieve the shortage of priests.

Rather, we must look at what countries\dioceses\parishes that generate vocations are doing and emulate it everywhere.

I have been to far away parishes where nun performed beautiful ceremonies with communion. If we wait for the priests to come, we wont solve today’s problems … if they ever come !

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not really the vibe I get from the EC’s I have encountered, but I will take your word for it.

Well, if you try to look at what happened in the East, Latinizations were forced upon them. It happened in the past, it still is happening today. Orthodox have taken Western devotions without fuss because they did so by their own choice. Its easier to swallow something if nobody tried to shove the food down your throat

Came from the East but set up HQ in the West.

That has nothing to do with the point of origin.

It would be nice to see a source for this.

google.com

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Ditto.

The bishop isn’t doing anything wrong by bringing up the matter for discussion.

I think this is the wrong example to use. It would be more proper to use the various Orthodox Churches for comparison.

I would not say it it the wrong examples, it is one of them.
But remember that the Orthodox Churches remained Local, not expanding all over the World. For a cause …

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would not say it it the wrong examples, it is one of them.
But remember that the Orthodox Churches remained Local, not expanding all over the World. For a cause …

The Orthodox didn’t remain local. They were sandwiched by the expanding Latin Church to the West, and Islam to the East. They expanded north to Russia, thats about it. Even traditional Eastern lands were taken by the Latin Church.

 

[TarkanAttila]

In light of some of the other posts here, and some other things I’ve been thinking about, maybe a married priesthood is still not a good idea. I mean, yes, we need more vocations, definitely. And allowing married men would definitely fill the void.

I am definitely NOT saying this applies to everyone, but… it seems to me marriage is ever more becoming a worldly issue, and not a holy one. People seem to marry for the sex and the money (gov’t benefits) and the emotional love they feel at first. It seems they don’t consider it a spiritual vocation, where husband and wife draw each other closer to God, along with each other.

Consider the divorce rate - even among Catholics. Can you imagine the scandal of a priest divorcing his wife?

Perhaps married priests should wait until marriage once again becomes a holy vocation ,where God is a third party, and not just a partnership between people “in love”.

O Lord, come soon.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Well, if you try to look at what happened in the East, Latinizations were forced upon them. It happened in the past, it still is happening today. Orthodox have taken Western devotions without fuss because they did so by their own choice. Its easier to swallow something if nobody tried to shove the food down your throat

Yes I agree: however the past shoving I think has made my EC brothers so jumpy that they perceive everything to be shoving even when it’s just a friendly suggestion.

That has nothing to do with the point of origin.

The point of origin was technically Nazareth since Christ is the Head of the Church. Also if I’m not mistaken there were Romans runing around during that time werent there? I thought I read that Christ even said a Roman Centurion had a faith unlike anyone else in Isreal. Looks like we Latins have been side by side with the East since this thing started.

google.com

Let me put that into my CAF translation machine…bing

“Google.com is typically given when the poster does not have a credible source for their claims”