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BlueSapphire
Guest
Unfortuately many are Catholics in name only, and see it as part of our culture, much like St. Patrick’s Day!
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ZoeyBdo
Guest
I can understand that. St. Patrick’s Day at my church is amazing, but sad as well. I live in a very strong Irish-American city, and on St. Patrick’s day my church is standing room only ~ even the choir balcony is packed full of people. There are so many people there they are spilling out the doors and onto the steps.Unfortuately many are Catholics in name only, and see it as part of our culture, much like St. Patrick’s Day!
I looked at my husband and said “Where are all of these people on Sundays?”
I then thought of myself ~ as I was guilty, like them, as well ~ Of being a C&E Catholic ~ Catholic by name, Catholic by birth, but not Catholic in life.
I then prayed.
I guess that’s all we can do.
Perhaps as someone stated this will help to bring about more vibrant parishes and schools. It could, however, have devastating effects. When we take for granted what we have, we often don’t realize how it impacts our lives and how we are ultimately responsible until it’s too late.
My great grandmother was Irish. I’ll keep all of you in my prayers.
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Hesychios
Guest
Isn’t the problem really that the Catholic schools in Eire have been accepting taxpayer money?
If the Irish State does not have a sufficient non-denominational public supported system, it needs to build one and stop subsidizing religious schools. Then we would probably not see these problems. Free associations should never accept taxpayer money, especially if they are religious organizations.
If a church (any church, mine - yours - theirs) accepts money from a government, it deserves all the trouble it gets from that association.
The voters of Eire can change this situation if they have a mind to, but every new Euro that comes from the public tax rolls implies a concession.
Quid Pro Quo.
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YoungIreland
Guest
Hesychios, I understand your point, but I’ve a question for you: how will the Catholic schools be able to survive without government funding? Bear in mind that the number of vocations to the religious life in Ireland has plummeted in recent years and that teachers can’t pay themselves. If we were to adopt your proposals here in Ireland, such schools will have to charge fees, thus depriving hundreds of thousands of people of a Catholic education for their children (the number will almost certainly increase due to the recession? Is that what we as Catholics really want?
(P.S.) I would appreciate it if you referred to my country as (Republic of ) Ireland, as “Eire” has a pejorative meaning.
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Hopemercy
Guest
NB I have no problem with Eire; never heard that it was not fine! Be at peace on that.
Education and health care as well as eg reformatories in Ireland were created by the Church and the religious orders. Teachers and nurses who were also sisters were thus always paid by the state. So it is not quite as you have thought. The orders and clergy became very rich and also of course the buildings and faciliites were paid for by the state. Most are now of course run and staffed by laity but the church is trying to keep control.
There are also new trusts; see google for the Shiel Trust
For one example, google Clonakility secondary school and read the history.,; sorry no time to get the site up
So the church and the orders have never paid for the schools. The state always has paid. This is what gave them control . WHich they abused so greatly which is now destroying them.
The Church of Ireland also have their own church schools.
The Quakers also were infuential
Education has thus always been mainly Catholic.
What is happening now as the church here loses the ground it once held is that as it losed favour, more and more the separation of church and state is being sought.
It is a growing that needs care. Especially as ireland also becomes more and more multi cultural and children of many faiths need to be assimilated.
Times they are indeed a changing…
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Hesychios
Guest
You know, I would have never known this until you brought it up, honestly. I cannot imagine how that could have developed, no Irish descendants in the USA have ever mentioned it that I am aware of.(P.S.) I would appreciate it if you referred to my country as (Republic of ) Ireland, as “Eire” has a pejorative meaning.
I would never have wanted to offend you … sorry.
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Hesychios
Guest
If the community and nation desires to provide a free public education (a very worthwhile and desirable program for any country) it needs to be respectful of the culture and religious beliefs of all of the citizen-taxpayers.Hesychios, I understand your point, but I’ve a question for you: how will the Catholic schools be able to survive without government funding? Bear in mind that the number of vocations to the religious life in Ireland has plummeted in recent years and that teachers can’t pay themselves. If we were to adopt your proposals here in Ireland, such schools will have to charge fees, thus depriving hundreds of thousands of people of a Catholic education for their children (the number will almost certainly increase due to the recession? Is that what we as Catholics really want?
If privately owned schools accept public money they have to accord this same respect to all students.
If they do not wish to, they should refuse the tax money and charge a tuition for their more selective student body. If it means a leaner scaled down church school network, so be it. If the community really cares about this they can fix it, and preserve and protect the church’s rights to teach and pray as they see fit.
This is part of Protect the Church 101 - a very basic but universal rule for every church in every nation.
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YoungIreland
Guest
That’s grand,
you didn’t know. No hard feelings.
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YoungIreland
Guest
Judging by your posts, you seem to have difficulty understanding the situation in Ireland
(please don’t take offence, I would be the same regarding the US Church). Here is some background info:
- 87% of Irish people are Catholics. Though more immigrants have come in recent years, many of them are still Catholic (many even more so than ourselves). Therefore, it is natural that a Catholic country should support Catholic schools.
- Catholic schools in Ireland have a long tradition of providing an education to the poor that they might not get otherwise. Imposing fees would almost certainly bring that tradition to an end.
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Hesychios
Guest
I don’t think so.
I am just saying that as long as this arrangement stays as it has been, the church school system will be compromised. It will have to adjust, it could be expensive.
Ireland does not get a free pass, as long as it accepts public taxpayer money, it will be vulnerable. With the money comes a measure of control.
If a legitimately elected government is telling it’s funded schools that it has to be more sensitive to the entire school population, regardlesss of race or creed, the schools will have to oblige (at least at this point it is superficially fair about it’s demands, it is not banning prayer altogether, just mandating ‘non-denominational’ prayer). This is not an attack on the church, and it is not an attack on the Catholic schools of Ireland. As long as they accept government money they are liable to be told how to spend it.
I am not offended.
I know it is seen as a crises, but it is actually a long overdue correction. This happens all over the world, I am surpised the Irish system has been like this as long as it has.
You cannot trust the government to look after your interests. If every Catholic suddenly got animated and voted in a government more to their liking it would only be a temporary fix, you cannot count on the electorate to remain stable and supportive, and eventually this kind of thing will happen again. It could be a Muslim government one day and the Catholic church could be the minority, no one wants to have a school system dominated by Muslim clerics, no one wants a school system dominated by atheists. (In all fairness can imagine that those people in Ireland today do not want to attend a school dominated by Catholics either).
The church has to free itself from dependence on government, not just in Ireland, but in Russia or Poland or China or wherever the church takes government money it will be compromised, and there will be hell to pay later.
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Pitcharan
Guest
You r right!!!
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Hopemercy
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NB this is not so; the first time i have even heard of the idea that it is pejorative either; no idea where that idea is coming from! No offence here and after all, Eire is Irish whereas Republic of Ireland is Englishl I will revert to using Eire now; thank you.
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pepipop
Guest
It’s funny years ago (I’m from NI originally), i was printing an envelope at work to send to Ireland (I was in Scotland at the time), and an Irish colleague said - ‘What are you writing the Republic of Ireland for - it’s Ireland!’. So that stuck with me and I use it all the time - this is Ireland/Eire.
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aschaefer
Guest
I am a religion teacher in a Catholic School in the U.S. and we receive money ($6,000 per student) from the government We are not told how we must pray or what we must teach. The students learn Catholic doctrine, morals, Church history, and Catholic prayer traditions, like the rosary and Stations of the Cross. Many of my students are not Catholic. I’m happy that I can plant the seeds of faith.
Catholics must join together and make changes in Ireland before it’s too late!
Catholics must join together and make changes in Ireland before it’s too late!
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