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H
Hopemercy
Guest
The first para is puzzling as it bears little relation to what we are seeing and hearing of this situation here in Ireland.
There are irreconcilable differences.
The two sides are locked in a heated debate that will not easily be resolved now. The Church here is crashing and burning in so many ways. The recent revelations of the abuse in Raphoe and the Gardai abuse report due soon…
NB a web site that carries all the reports is Clerical Whispers. It also shows a less welcome aspect of the Church here sadly but all the reports are there in full.
There are irreconcilable differences.
The two sides are locked in a heated debate that will not easily be resolved now. The Church here is crashing and burning in so many ways. The recent revelations of the abuse in Raphoe and the Gardai abuse report due soon…
NB a web site that carries all the reports is Clerical Whispers. It also shows a less welcome aspect of the Church here sadly but all the reports are there in full.
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BlueSapphire
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Hopemercy
Guest
Well, in parts. There is a large "liberal " element at work therein.
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Hopemercy
Guest
Maybe some of the good folk here can… elucidate, for I am at a total loss, baffled.
I came to Ireland some 10 years ago, thinking it to be a good Catholic land etc.
In the ten years? Scandal after scandal , more and more evil against children exposed and a refusal to take responsibility etc.
Seeing the children here; Irish kids are great and so treasured. How could any one harm them sexually or in any other way? Just HOW?
Bad enough if the perpetrator were not Christan; had no moral laws etc, but for a Catholic Priest or religious?
Just what goes on in a mind and life like that? Men and women who have taken Vows of celibacy and whose lives are supposed to echo and teach the love of Jesus. NB one priest explained that celibacy only referred to sex with adult women not children, but that too is a common thing, for priests here to have a woman living with them.
Last week, the story broke that a senior Church of Ireland clergyman ( Anglican) had entered into a csame sex civil partnership; the relationship has been going on openly for 20 years. A collegue said he hoped and was sure that many would congratulate the couple and that this would reflect the new attitudes to same sex couples.
Again, these are educated men purposting to be living what they preach. So this man paid and employed by the C of I to teach their rules? One man, one woman is marriage
NB thankfully there is now a n almighty row about this; see Clerical Whispers.
But it is the same thing; preaching one thing and living another.
And it loses souls daily to Jesus.
On these things I have pondered long and painfully; and I am at a total loss on it all.
How can they do this? Men and women supposed to know Jesus?
Is sex their god? is it that?
Why then do they not leave the Church? We would surely be better off without them. They are living lies and dishonouring the Gospel.
I came to Ireland some 10 years ago, thinking it to be a good Catholic land etc.
In the ten years? Scandal after scandal , more and more evil against children exposed and a refusal to take responsibility etc.
Seeing the children here; Irish kids are great and so treasured. How could any one harm them sexually or in any other way? Just HOW?
Bad enough if the perpetrator were not Christan; had no moral laws etc, but for a Catholic Priest or religious?
Just what goes on in a mind and life like that? Men and women who have taken Vows of celibacy and whose lives are supposed to echo and teach the love of Jesus. NB one priest explained that celibacy only referred to sex with adult women not children, but that too is a common thing, for priests here to have a woman living with them.
Last week, the story broke that a senior Church of Ireland clergyman ( Anglican) had entered into a csame sex civil partnership; the relationship has been going on openly for 20 years. A collegue said he hoped and was sure that many would congratulate the couple and that this would reflect the new attitudes to same sex couples.
Again, these are educated men purposting to be living what they preach. So this man paid and employed by the C of I to teach their rules? One man, one woman is marriage
NB thankfully there is now a n almighty row about this; see Clerical Whispers.
But it is the same thing; preaching one thing and living another.
And it loses souls daily to Jesus.
On these things I have pondered long and painfully; and I am at a total loss on it all.
How can they do this? Men and women supposed to know Jesus?
Is sex their god? is it that?
Why then do they not leave the Church? We would surely be better off without them. They are living lies and dishonouring the Gospel.
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jam070406
Guest
I am equally baffled by this. I always kinda (naively) looked up to Ireland as a great Catholic land. I find this very painful.
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Hopemercy
Guest
Thank you for this.
Living amidst it as reality sets in is as you say utterly painful.
The fact also is emerging as police investigations focus on the missionary societies, that almost all the abusers were from Ireland also to so many lands, passed on by the Church here.
Folk here now are no longer in denial. They were for years but that has changed now. Mass attendance is way down.
And yet the blindness continues. There was a long article re why there are almost no vocations to the priesthood now, and they dismissed the idea that it had any connection with the abuse.
I asked one family whose eldest son, one of five children, has just been accepted at a prestigious medical uni here what they would have said had he come home and said he wanted to be a priest…" His father would help him pack" was the immediate reaction. " We don’t want him joining that lot."
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Scoobyshme
Guest
You forget, I think, that we are all in a war. Not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers. The powers of darkness vs. the powers of light. Good vs. evil.
Satan, our enemy, is still a supernatural being, with supernatural intelligence. Not on the same order as God, but far above our level. His goal is mayhem, lies, murder, and the destruction of souls.
Satan is also a master tactician and strategist. As in any war, it is a very good tactic to snipe the officers. Strike the shepherd, scatter the sheep. And what makes the officers (members of the hierarchy) most vulnerable to the attacks of our enemy is pride. This is where the leak in the ship started, in my opinion. Pride is the opposite of humility. A humble priest and bishop would’ve known they were vulnerable to Satan’s attacks and prayed, fasted, etc., to strengthen themselves against such attacks.
Also, keep in mind that it wasn’t all priests or all bishops as the media (which is, in our day, controlled by Satan for the most part) would have you believe. But a small minority. This minority, however, did great damage.
But this is nothing new. Of the 12 Apostles hand-picked by Jesus, there was Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him. And Peter, the one He chose to lead His Church on earth, who denied Him three times. And the rest, who except for St. John, deserted Him in his hour of need.
The Church is not a museum of saints, but a hospital for sinners, and that includes the hierarchy. We need to pray, fast, offer our suffering up in reparation for sins, etc. We need to fight the good fight and always know that, “there, but for the grace of God, go I.”
Satan, our enemy, is still a supernatural being, with supernatural intelligence. Not on the same order as God, but far above our level. His goal is mayhem, lies, murder, and the destruction of souls.
Satan is also a master tactician and strategist. As in any war, it is a very good tactic to snipe the officers. Strike the shepherd, scatter the sheep. And what makes the officers (members of the hierarchy) most vulnerable to the attacks of our enemy is pride. This is where the leak in the ship started, in my opinion. Pride is the opposite of humility. A humble priest and bishop would’ve known they were vulnerable to Satan’s attacks and prayed, fasted, etc., to strengthen themselves against such attacks.
Also, keep in mind that it wasn’t all priests or all bishops as the media (which is, in our day, controlled by Satan for the most part) would have you believe. But a small minority. This minority, however, did great damage.
But this is nothing new. Of the 12 Apostles hand-picked by Jesus, there was Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him. And Peter, the one He chose to lead His Church on earth, who denied Him three times. And the rest, who except for St. John, deserted Him in his hour of need.
The Church is not a museum of saints, but a hospital for sinners, and that includes the hierarchy. We need to pray, fast, offer our suffering up in reparation for sins, etc. We need to fight the good fight and always know that, “there, but for the grace of God, go I.”
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Hopemercy
Guest
No I do not forget . But this is men and women deliberately and willingly abusing children.
And as I have posted before, it is NOT a small minority.
Itis in fact a sizable majority.
And please stop blaming the media for what has in fact been accurate and fair reporting! Based on the reports commissioned and published by reputable leaders of the Irish community. There has been and is no need to exaggerate. Sadly
There is grave danger on all sides in blaming satan for what we willingly do. We are not puppets.
My question remains; why do these people who claim to be of Christ, do such abominable things? is sex their god?
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Hopemercy
Guest
Offical figures leaked from the Vatican state as 76 % of clergy and religious were abusers.
When you realise that in those decades and until less than 20 years ago every school, reformatory and hospital was run by priests and religious that figure makes sense.
This last while I have heard , and this is in two different dioceses, of priests in rural areas being helped to “escape” by parishioners as they were about to be arrested…
When the Gardai report comes out there will be more of this.
So much has been hidden and only a small percentage of abused made complaints. I know many, many abused who have simply existed on.
Also maybe soime do not realise how small a country this is and that those no directly involved knew of abuse and did nothing. That is culpable also
Those who did speak out in Orders were forced to leave. Again, I know many such.
The commission on Raphoe has reconvened; a leak to the press elicited a massive response and more information.
When you realise that in those decades and until less than 20 years ago every school, reformatory and hospital was run by priests and religious that figure makes sense.
This last while I have heard , and this is in two different dioceses, of priests in rural areas being helped to “escape” by parishioners as they were about to be arrested…
When the Gardai report comes out there will be more of this.
So much has been hidden and only a small percentage of abused made complaints. I know many, many abused who have simply existed on.
Also maybe soime do not realise how small a country this is and that those no directly involved knew of abuse and did nothing. That is culpable also
Those who did speak out in Orders were forced to leave. Again, I know many such.
The commission on Raphoe has reconvened; a leak to the press elicited a massive response and more information.
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Semper_Zelare
Guest
Wow, not only was that one of the best posts I’ve read addressing the sex-abuse scandal, but I realized it was from Northport AL! I go to school in Tuscaloosa, Roll Tide!
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incense
Guest
Seems rather contradictory to me, “official figures” and “leaked”.
I realize the world’s focus is on the failure of the leaders of the church, but I’m trying to understand the failure of the body of the Church. I’m trying to understand how so many parishioners would let 76% of their clergy and religious (if this # is right) be abusers and do nothing. Being only in my 50’s, I don’t understand what the pre-Vatican II mindset of the average Catholic was. I know that obedience and profound respect of priests were emphasized. I still can’t fathom hundreds of fathers letting their sons be homosexually molested and think that they owe obedience to the molester priest. Aren’t we taught obedience only to the point of sin?
Perhaps it wasn’t about protecting the church so much as protecting their child. Perhaps it was the potential embarrassment/ humiliation that kept the parents quiet? As a girl, I remember people commenting that it would be better for a woman to commit suicide then admit to being raped. Appalling, but a common thought then. Rape was rarely reported until a societal movement to take the blame away from the victim and put it on the perpetrator. Rape shield laws were enacted that stopped lawyers from slurring a woman’s past sexual history during a trial. But who would want their child to have to get on a stand, face their molester, and testify?
Something’s just not adding up.
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Corki
Guest
Citation? Proof? I don’t believe it.
- The worldwide figures are in the range of 1.5 - 5%. It is ridiculous to think that the rate of abuse in Ireland is that much greater than anywhere else in the world.
- The percentage of abuse perpetrated by clergy in Ireland is less than 4%. There is no way to reconcile 4% of all abuse being perpetrted by 76% of Irish clergy.
- Even using the largest numbers I could find anywhere, the “worst case” number is 6%. That includes unsubstantiated allegations and a 60 year time frame. A horrible number but a far cry from a majority, let alone 76%.
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Holly3278
Guest
I hope and pray that peace would come to the land of Ireland about this and that this would not affect the Catholic Church to a severe extent there.
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BlueSapphire
Guest
This is just my own personal opinion, I think everything went downhill when Ireland joined the European Union. They are now dictating how our Goverment should run it’s own country! 
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hawkeye
Guest
There are many good Catholics here, and many faithful priests carrying their cross for the sins of others.
In Ireland many got caught up with money, wealth & greed, the housing market went off the richter scale with the young unable to purchase homes because of the rip-off merchants we have here.
Now their greed has caught up with them, the celtic tiger is a pussycat, the housing market and the economy over-all is suffering.
We aren’t poor, we have food, a roof over our heads and clothes on our backs, many’s a child or family in other parts of the world would feel like millionaires if they had that.
Many are poor here though, poor to the things of God, and do they want to know ?not many, they put their faith in money instead of God.
Anyway, lets not forget our Confirmation vows, to be soldiers of Christ, otherwise they were only hollow words.
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, brethren, be strengthened in the Lord, and in the might of his power. 11 Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. 13 Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice, 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace: 16 In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one. 17 And take unto you the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God).
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hawkeye
Guest
I agree, and despise the so-called EU, they called us the bread-basket of Europe.This is just my own personal opinion, I think everything went downhill when Ireland joined the European Union. They are now dictating how our Goverment should run it’s own country!
Well when we were a bread basket we had faith, both don’t seem to get along, ( God & money)
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BlueSapphire
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hawkeye
Guest
The EU seems to be heading for meltdown today, with Greece in trouble, unity maybe a good thing, but not when it takes away our liberties, trying to force abortion down our throats amongst other things,the whole EU thing sure smells of something satanic…
The wonderful EU…
While fish populations are decreasing and the food prices increasing, UK fishing boats have still tossed over 2.15 million tonnes of perfectly edible dead cod into the sea in the past half-century. About one million tonnes are tossed back into the North Sea alone every year. Fisherman don’t do this because they want to. The EU forces them to.
How many starving children would this have helped ?
The wonderful EU…
While fish populations are decreasing and the food prices increasing, UK fishing boats have still tossed over 2.15 million tonnes of perfectly edible dead cod into the sea in the past half-century. About one million tonnes are tossed back into the North Sea alone every year. Fisherman don’t do this because they want to. The EU forces them to.
How many starving children would this have helped ?
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Atsf1868
Guest
It’s all very disgusting. The Christan Brothers were/are an abomination. The religious orders generally were on the decline even before the diocesan priests. However, the fact that some older Christian Brothers complained about the abuse and were terminated in the 1930s/40s at least tells me that the Christian Brothers were not always a band of sadistic nutcases. From my own research, I believe that these religious orders became increasingly infiltrated year after year. This was going on well before Vatican II but the depth of the perversion certainly intensified after the Council.
The role of homosexuality in the scandals in Ireland is overwhelming. Bishop Magee himself is alleged to have kissed a young boy and told him he dreamt about him. Magee and the Association of Catholic Priests would appear to be natural allies. So it’s strange to hear the criticisms of the Association of Catholic Priests. I do believe it’s all one big cover-up and that some of the voices in the Church in Ireland who are most critical of the Vatican are trying to deflect their own culpability. The Church in Ireland had way too much prestige and power to cover up its crimes. The clergy and bishops were not upholding Church teachings. Even if they gave lip service to Church teachings, they were not living them in practice.
The role of homosexuality in the scandals in Ireland is overwhelming. Bishop Magee himself is alleged to have kissed a young boy and told him he dreamt about him. Magee and the Association of Catholic Priests would appear to be natural allies. So it’s strange to hear the criticisms of the Association of Catholic Priests. I do believe it’s all one big cover-up and that some of the voices in the Church in Ireland who are most critical of the Vatican are trying to deflect their own culpability. The Church in Ireland had way too much prestige and power to cover up its crimes. The clergy and bishops were not upholding Church teachings. Even if they gave lip service to Church teachings, they were not living them in practice.
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