Irish priests say they will disobey new confession box law on child abuse

[Farsight001]

No, I am pretty sure; some really bad, grave sins. I can’t remember exactly but sins of sexual nature where a minor was involved are to be referred to bishops.
I have the book here but no time to look it up.

SOME, yes. I agree with that and stated as much. You did not say some in your previous post.

 

[Corki]

No, I am pretty sure; some really bad, grave sins. I can’t remember exactly but sins of sexual nature where a minor was involved are to be referred to bishops.
I have the book here but no time to look it up.

No, those sins are not reserved to the Bishop. A priest may absolve those.

The Heribert Jone book was written long before the current code of canon law (even before the prior code). Who can absolve which sins is set out by canon law.

 

[trials]

Two questions:

• I wouldn’t know where to start to look for which sins can only be absolved by a Bishop. Could someone inform me? I never heard of this before.
• To avoid this legal enforcement of breaking the seal of the confessional, could a priest not include in the penance to the person of going and confessing to the police? In way of restitution for crimes committed? Would this be a possibility?

 

[mlz]

Religious freedom is under attack. This is coming from the evil one. We must all be prepared to stand for what we know is right and stay true to our profession of faith.

Prayer is essential!

mlz

 

[Corki]

Two questions:

• I wouldn’t know where to start to look for which sins can only be absolved by a Bishop. Could someone inform me? I never heard of this before.

You would start with Confession to your regular Confessor. He would tell you if there were sins he was not able to absolve. For the non-ordained, the list is pretty much the same as sins that incur excommunication.

To avoid this legal enforcement of breaking the seal of the confessional, could a priest not include in the penance to the person of going and confessing to the police? In way of restitution for crimes committed? Would this be a possibility?

No. The priest may never require that the penitent reveal his/her sins to any third party.

 

[NeedImprovement]

It was bound to happen as a result of all the coverups and shuffling of abusive priests, and I think many will disagree that it’s an attaack on freedom of religion. I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened in the US as well. In fact, I’m actually shocked that more voters aren’t lobbying for it, especially those whose life focus is on protecting children.

Maybe, a review of what the Catholic Church in the US is doing ( -emphasis on their focus on protecting children ) is in order . Otherwise that post might be interpreted/misinterpreted unfairlly to sound like the Catholic Church and protection of children are mutually exclusive.

Before any more Church bashing and priest bashing, let’s take a look at what’s recent - this Thread Addressing BISHOPS’ REPORT ON ABUSE CASES AND CHILD PROTECTION

That’s the *true picture *guys - not some media hyped BS .

---

Although they misuse the phrase’s meaning meaning most of the time , these are the same politicians who say the believe in separation of Church and of State , yet, somehow, the seal of Confession suddenly isn’t “Church” …:dts:

The Catholic Church is at the forefront of the protection of children - no one else speaks out more definitively against the slaughter of abortion - of the killing of more than 46 million children in their mother’s wombs every year .

 

[NeedImprovement]

Anyone who bothered to read the article, would have discovered that Fr. Sean McDonagh made the same point to the newspaper as Corki did in post # 5 (bolds mine) :

. . . Fr McDonagh also recalled to the Irish Independent how a New Zealand Columban priest, Fr Francis Douglas, was tortured to death by the Japanese during World War Two because he refused to reveal information received in confession about the Filipino guerrillas.

“He is held up to us as a model of how you deal with this extraordinary sacrament. You shouldn’t put into legislation something that cannot be enforced. It makes a mockery of the legislation,” he said.

“Confessions are held in private so that priests do not know who is in the confessional box."

 

[NeedImprovement]

Many (though not most) of the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland have caused a huge amount of damage to the faith. This latest act of deliberate defiance will have the child sodomites of Ireland breathing a sigh of relief while hundreds of the faithful will yet again come under attack by the media. These priests aren’t fit for purpose.

First of all , I believe you meant to say *sodomizers of children *; “child sodomites” tends to denote the child as the one who is practicing the sodomy.
RICKY RASPER:

This latest act of deliberate defiance will have the child sodomites of Ireland breathing a sigh of relief while hundreds of the faithful will yet again come under attack by the media.

Men of greater vision paint a much more disturbing realistic picture than yours. They say that the more active homosexuality is normalized - the easier it is going to be for pedophiles to ply their illness into mainstream society.

… Last time I checked, it wasn’t the Catholic Church who was normalizing active homosexuality - it’s the politicians . . .

 

[ProVobis]

**They don’t need to disobey.

Sins of very grave nature are only allowed to be confesed and absolved** by a BISHOP!!!

I read this in Moral Theolgy, Heribert Jone I think!

This is true. However, the bishop usually grants priests the faculties to absolve sins. Without the faculties a priest cannot validly hear confessions unless there is danger of death. Visiting, suspended, and retired priests generally fall into this category.

 

[Rence]

Maybe, a review of what the Catholic Church in the US is doing ( -emphasis on their focus on protecting children ) is in order . Otherwise that post might be interpreted/misinterpreted unfairlly to sound like the Catholic Church and protection of children are mutually exclusive.

Just to clarify, I was talking about the US government, not about what the Church in the US is doing.

Although they misuse the phrase’s meaning meaning most of the time , these are the same politicians who say the believe in separation of Church and of State , yet, somehow, the seal of Confession suddenly isn’t “Church” …:dts:

Some might say that withholding information regarding hineous crimes such as child abuse/molestation is an obstruction of justice.

The Catholic Church is at the forefront of the protection of children - no one else speaks out more definitively against the slaughter of abortion - of the killing of more than 46 million children in their mother’s wombs every year .

And some might respond by saying that children already born are just as important and in need of the same efforts to protect.

 

[Ana_v]

No. The priest may never require that the penitent reveal his/her sins to any third party.

Pardon my ignorance here if I am mistaken, but I thought that law of the Church had a qualifier: “the priest may never require that the penitent reveal his/her sins to any third party [as a condition for *absolution]”.

I never did come across a definitive (i.e. magisterial) answer to whether a confessor may impose a *penance *consisting of revealing one’s sins to civil authorities. I’ve seen conflicting comments here on CAF when it comes to that question.

In any event – with regards to the article in the OP – how does the government intend to enforce this law?

If not by installing secret recording devices in the confessional (which is highly implausible )how? One of the only ways in which the government would find out if a confessor defied the mandatory disclosure of sexual child abuse crimes, is if a penitent, upon turning him/herself in, informed authorities that he/she had confessed the crime to a priest, and revealed that priest’s name.

 

[GraceSofia]

The poll results (at the link to the OP story) surprised me. The question is: Do you think Irish Catholic Priests should be forced to report sex abuse allegations disclosed during Confessions?

At this time, 68% of the votes are for “yes.” So a lot of people seem not to understand the sacrament of reconciliation.

Shatter is Jewish and “wrote a book in 1979 mocking the Church’s teaching on birth control as it was once loyally implemented in Irish law by the nation’s ban on contraceptives.”

"The satirical attack on the natural law and Church teaching was disdainfully titled: “Family Planning, Irish Style.”

Quotes from Ireland’s Zionist Justice Minister Behind Drive Against Seal of Confession in Abuse Cases

 

[ConstantineTG]

Huh, you make a good point. Perhaps I should have thought this through before coming to such hasty conclusions. It makes sense when you think about it. He would report it, but give nothing of value, because he honestly wouldn’t know anything of value (if he set up an anonymous confession).

My other concern would be: Would the priest be breaking the Seal of the Confession by telling the police this? I know the Seal exists, but I don’t know to what extent or what information the priest can divulge without breaking it.

No, I don’t think this breaks the seal. The priest never identified the person. The sin is not unique, therefore it could be anyone.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

All he has to do is keep his mouth shut.

How would anyone know who confessed what in the Confessional? And in any case, it would be hearsay evidence - the priest is not a witness, and the nature of Confession is not such that he would know any details.

The priest may keep his “mouth shut” to the Child Protection Services of Ireland ( how brave of him ) but he will not be able to keep his “mouth shut” when he has to give an account of his actions to Christ!

 

[saveusfromhell]

The priest may keep his “mouth shut” to the Child Protection Services of Ireland ( how brave of him ) but he will not be able to keep his “mouth shut” when he has to give an account of his actions to Christ!

.
If your fore fathers had not abandoned the faith so Henry viii could have another wife you too would realise the importance of confession never mind the seal of confession

 

[NeedImprovement]

Excerpt from : Modern Catholic Dictionary ; Father John Hardon , S.J.

SEAL OF CONFESSION.

The grave duty of keeping absolutely secret all sins that are told in sacramental confession and anything else that is told by the penitent and is related to the confession. It is an obligation binding in the natural law, the divine law of Christ, and in the positive law of the Church. It binds the confessor and any other person who in any way discovers what was confessed. Under no circumstances may any of this information be revealed unless the penitent freely gives permission.

Link to Modern Catholic Dictionary

 

[pepipop]

I cannot see this law being imposed, and no doubt the paper is spin doctoring. If a child molester honestly confesses, i.e. that he will not sin again, then I would assume the priest could advise him to turn himself in to the police. In any case, I would also assume that someone confessing such a crime would ensure they went to a parish , county, where they were not known - hence there is no way the priest could identify him, be that a lay person or another priest. The priest cannot apprehend the confessee and if he does not know his name, as Corki pointed out, there is no information he could give to the police anyhow.

Either way if the ‘law’ was enforced, how many child molesters will confess - NONE. They can go to confession in the UK, i.e. drive to Northern Ireland a few hours by car, or wherever this law has not been passed.

It’s all a load of nonsense if you ask me, it’s just another knock at the church by trying to infer the church still ‘covers-up’ and protects child abusers from all angles, and hence more dissent and mockery against the church.

 

[BlueSapphire]

The priest may keep his “mouth shut” to the Child Protection Services of Ireland ( how brave of him ) but he will not be able to keep his “mouth shut” when he has to give an account of his actions to Christ!

The ‘Authorities’ in Jesus time would have had the woman caught in adultery stoned to death which was required by the law of Moses - did he hand her over? No he didn’t, he told her go and sin no more!

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

No, I don’t think this breaks the seal. The priest never identified the person. The sin is not unique, therefore it could be anyone.

Most priests are well acquainted with the members of there congregations.Pretending that a priest isn’t aware of to whom he is speaking is stretching the limits of credibility! I agree with the sanctity of the confessional box but perhaps it should be a condition of absolution in cases of child rape and sexual abuse that the penitent must turn himself in as a condition of that absolution.If he turns himself in he is granted absolution.If he does not hand himself over he has shown by his actions that he is not truly penitent and may commit the crime again.The priest should in all good conscience should have the protection of vulnerable children as a priority and report the paedophile.

“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The Sacrament of Confession has no relationship to law enforcement or prosecution. I’m surprised that any Catholics on this forum would seriously think that there is a relationship, and that these same Catholics think that non-Catholics could claim or establish a relationship.