Irish priests say they will disobey new confession box law on child abuse

[RICKY_RASPER]

We have to protect the sacraments, we have to protect the Tradition, but if we allow this, where does it end?

Will a priest be shaken down for any kind of information that can lead to the arrest of someone? Priest already have the stigma of being known as child molesters, but now they have to be associated as rats, and police informants?

I know it the duty for a Priest to report anything heard outside of a confessional booth that could be used to help the police; however this must not be done.

This is an act to try and destroy any kind of safety an individual can feel in a Church.

I’m sorry, this is wrong.

Do you really believe that protecting Child abusers protects the sacraments?
As for the Traditions of the church aren’t we told to keep them Holy?
Any priest who had the courage to “rat” as you call it on a paedophile would be held in high esteem by the public and I would imagine Christ if not yourself.
The only people to fear this act will be the paedophiles.
Do you really believe Christ intended confession to be a sanctuary for these beasts?

I’m sorry, YOU are wrong.

 

[SpeakInSilence]

I think Christ intended for confession to be a place where they can find some grace in a time in their life where sin might be taking hold.

They would not be going to confession if they didn’t think there was an issue. I’m telling you the only people who will be hurt by this bill is the rest of the Church.

EDIT:

You think Christ didn’t foreknow some of the wickedness that would be confessed? God does not change his mind, and he does not change his sacraments. People have confessed far greater acts of evil, and far less, they will all be protected by the ancient act for confession. Nothing should leave that booth besides a heart of repentance.

As I said before, anything out side of the booth should absolutely be reported.

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

I agree. Someone confessing to sodomising a child is bound to make even the most jaded priest sit up and take notice. By the way what is the penance for Child sodomy?

Are you a priest? Would you know what kinds of sins people confess to?

The penance for sodomizing a child is whatever God gives the penitent through the priest, just as it is with any sin.

Do you really believe that protecting Child abusers protects the sacraments?
As for the Traditions of the church aren’t we told to keep them Holy?
Any priest who had the courage to “rat” as you call it on a paedophile would be held in high esteem by the public and I would imagine Christ if not yourself.
The only people to fear this act will be the paedophiles.
Do you really believe Christ intended confession to be a sanctuary for these beasts?

I’m sorry, YOU are wrong.

So a priest should break the Seal of Confession just so he could “be held in high esteem” by the general public? Are Christians and Catholics not called to be in the world, but not of the world?

Christ intended confession to be about the forgiveness of sins: “What sins you forgive are forgiven, what sins you retain are retained”. Christ forgives the sins of all those who confess them to His priests and have contrition for them. YES, that includes child molesters and pedophiles!!

I think you are confusing the Sacrament with secular punishment. The two are not interconnected. If a murderer were to go to a priest and confess his sins, have contrition, and say his penance, there is absolutely nothing else required for his sins to be forgiven. Now, if the priest wants to advise him to turn himself into civil authorities in the interest of justice (NOT as a condition of absolution), that’s fine. But a sinner DOES NOT need to face civil punishment in order to be forgiven of sins: “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s”.

Perhaps your concern is that just going to confession will not necessarily stop a pedophile from molesting children again? Perhaps not. But perhaps it will. That’s what you do when you go to confession: you need a firm purpose of amendment. Again, Confession and secular punishment are not the same here. If a man has a firm purpose of amending his life to not sin again, he need not be required to turn himself over to civil authorities in order to be forgiven of his sins.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

This is an act to try and destroy any kind of safety an individual can feel in a Church.

This law is about the safety of the general public. I’ve always liked the idea of confession but it should not be allowed to serve as a safety net for sex offenders at the expense of innocent children.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

I think Christ intended for confession to be a place where they can find some grace in a time in their life where sin might be taking hold.

They would not be going to confession if they didn’t think there was an issue. I’m telling you the only people who will be hurt by this bill is the rest of the Church.

EDIT:

You think Christ didn’t foreknow some of the wickedness that would be confessed? God does not change his mind, and he does not change his sacraments. People have confessed far greater acts of evil, and far less, they will all be protected by the ancient act for confession. Nothing should leave that booth besides a heart of repentance.

As I said before, anything out side of the booth should absolutely be reported.

You are correct in saying that God does not change his sacraments. The sacrament of confession at the time of Saint Peter as recorded in the Didache required one to confess in front of the wholecongregation! "In the congregation thou shalt confess thy transgressions" also in the Didache **“submit themselves to the presbyters and receive correction so as to repent” ** the correction mentioned often included jail especially for theft!
It would seem that the church has abandoned the spirit of the original sacrament in favour of something that falls far short of the original.

 

[JReducation]

They tried to pass a similar measure several months ago. I will repost what I posted then. All the priests have to do is to make sure that the penitent’s right to an anonymous confession is met. Then they can comply with the law thusly:

Priest to police: I need to report that someone confessed to me that he or she had inappropriate contact with a child.

Police: what is this abuser’s name?

Priest: we don’t ask for names in the Confessional

Police: was this one of your parishioners?

Priest: I don’t know.

Police: didn’t you recognize him?

Priest: No

Police: Can you give us a description?

Priest: I only saw him through a screen.

Police: well, when did the abuse happen?

Priest: he didn’t say

Police: when did the Confession happen?

Priest: I hear Confessions every Saturday afternoon

I’m not a canon lawyer, but if I remember my courses correctly, even admitting that you heard such a confession is not allowed. It’s an invitation to have your confessional bugged, filmed or spied on in whatever way they can do it.

This has already been done even without such laws. There was a case in the USA where a prison confessional was bugged. The Vatican and the local bishop were all over the warden.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

You are correct in saying that God does not change his sacraments. The sacrament of confession at the time of Saint Peter as recorded in the Didache required one to confess in front of the wholecongregation! "In the congregation thou shalt confess thy transgressions" also in the Didache "submit themselves to the presbyters and receive correction so as to repent" the correction mentioned often included jail especially for theft!
It would seem that the church has abandoned the spirit of the original sacrament in favour of something that falls far short of the original.

This is a Red Herring. You’re talking about something completely different that has no relevance to the discussion at hand. Please stick to the actual issue, lest the thread get derailed.

 

[pnewton]

I cannot see this law being imposed, and no doubt the paper is spin doctoring.

I think you are right. This is only a proposed law, and probably done more for publicity than anything else. This law would make Catholicism illegal. The Sacrament of Reconcilliation is that critical to the faith, not that countries have not done this before. I have no doubt that outlawing Catholicism would result in a great resurgence of violence and death, as I am sure Shatter knows.

 

[pnewton]

The priest may keep his “mouth shut” to the Child Protection Services of Ireland ( how brave of him ) but he will not be able to keep his “mouth shut” when he has to give an account of his actions to Christ!

All will face the judgement seat of Christ to answer for their actions, including those brave anticatholics that come here to ridicule our faith. The brave Christians that are willing to face persecution for the sake of the kingdom will be able to give a better answer than those that slander these servants of God.

 

[pnewton]

Do you really believe Christ intended confession to be a sanctuary for these beasts?

I’m sorry, YOU are wrong.

The God we worship is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to eternal life. I thought all Christians believed that and sought the salvation of souls.

 

[pnewton]

It would seem that the church has abandoned the spirit of the original sacrament in favour of something that falls far short of the original.

By what authority do you make such a claim? We hold to the authority of Jesus as passed on to St. Peter. You are demonstrating why such basic mistakes should be addressed in the arena of apologetics, not here in the news. Here, it is not appropriate to treat our faith with such casual disdain.

 

[vsedriver]

This law is about the safety of the general public. I’ve always liked the idea of confession but it should not be allowed to serve as a safety net for sex offenders at the expense of innocent children.

so if a person confesses child abuse to his lawyer do you feel that lawyer must then report it to the authorities?

Why stop at child abuse? Why not demand the reporting of all serious crimes, especially murder? Isn’t it more important to stop a murderer than a child abuser?

 

[JReducation]

This law is about the safety of the general public. I’ve always liked the idea of confession but it should not be allowed to serve as a safety net for sex offenders at the expense of innocent children.

That’s your opinion. God disagrees. Confession is the safety net for all sinners, including you.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Are you a priest? Would you know what kinds of sins people confess to?

The penance for sodomizing a child is whatever God gives the penitent through the priest, just as it is with any sin.

So a priest should break the Seal of Confession just so he could “be held in high esteem” by the general public? Are Christians and Catholics not called to be in the world, but not of the world?

Christ intended confession to be about the forgiveness of sins: “What sins you forgive are forgiven, what sins you retain are retained”. Christ forgives the sins of all those who confess them to His priests and have contrition for them. YES, that includes child molesters and pedophiles!!

I think you are confusing the Sacrament with secular punishment. The two are not interconnected. If a murderer were to go to a priest and confess his sins, have contrition, and say his penance, there is absolutely nothing else required for his sins to be forgiven. Now, if the priest wants to advise him to turn himself into civil authorities in the interest of justice (NOT as a condition of absolution), that’s fine. But a sinner DOES NOT need to face civil punishment in order to be forgiven of sins: “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s”.

Perhaps your concern is that just going to confession will not necessarily stop a pedophile from molesting children again? Perhaps not. But perhaps it will. That’s what you do when you go to confession: you need a firm purpose of amendment. Again, Confession and secular punishment are not the same here. If a man has a firm purpose of amending his life to not sin again, he need not be required to turn himself over to civil authorities in order to be forgiven of his sins.

From near the end of the first century ( within the life time of Peter and Paul ) up until the time of Pope St. Sergius. Confessions were held before the congregation. The presbyters
had the authority to bring the pennant before the courts for temporal punishment in order to fulfil the penance and more importantly** save the pennants soul.
Public confessions started to become rarer during the period of the anti-popes because the Popes and competing Bishops and Cardinals were using were using public confession to condemn one-another. In my opinion the system of confession established under
Saint Peter as directed by Jesus Christ himself is the one the church should have continued with. What say you, Christ or Constantine ?

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

From near the end of the first century ( within the life time of Peter and Paul ) up until the time of Pope St. Sergius. Confessions were held before the congregation. The presbyters
had the authority to bring the pennant before the courts for temporal punishment in order to fulfil the penance and more importantly** save the pennants soul.
Public confessions started to become rarer during the period of the anti-popes because the Popes and competing Bishops and Cardinals were using were using public confession to condemn one-another. In my opinion the system of confession established under
Saint Peter as directed by Jesus Christ himself is the one the church should have continued with. What say you, Christ or Constantine ?

Once again, this is a red herring. You’re talking about a completely different issue. Please talk about the issue at hand.

 

[CatholicTrekkie]

From near the end of the first century ( within the life time of Peter and Paul ) up until the time of Pope St. Sergius. Confessions were held before the congregation. The presbyters
had the authority to bring the pennant before the courts for temporal punishment in order to fulfil the penance and more importantly** save the pennants soul.
Public confessions started to become rarer during the period of the anti-popes because the Popes and competing Bishops and Cardinals were using were using public confession to condemn one-another. In my opinion the system of confession established under
Saint Peter as directed by Jesus Christ himself is the one the church should have continued with. What say you, Christ or Constantine ?

I don’t really see what this has to do with the issue at hand. If you want to change the way the Catholic Church does confession, go right ahead. Become a priest, then a Bishop, then a Cardinal, then get elected Pope and proclaim ex cathedra the way you believe Confession should be done.

However, until that time, we must consider the way the Sacrament is currently. Right now, as it stands, the priest has no authority to either publicly expose someone’s sins or to require someone to turn themselves into the civil authorities for punishment. Your opinion on how the Sacrament ought to be has little bearing on how it is now. Please, argue about how it is now, not how you think it should be.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

That’s your opinion. God disagrees. Confession is the safety net for all sinners, including you.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

It’s a brave Christian who speaks the mind of God! Good luck with that one!

 

[pnewton]

It’s a brave Christian who speaks the mind of God! Good luck with that one!

No, it is a Christian that has put on the mind of Christ and died to themselves that speaks the mind of God. Bravery really has nothing to do with it. When one understands that eternity matters more than anything her, he is able to understand which things are primary and which are secondary. Then when one puts first things first, they are better able to do the second things. That was C.S. Lewis.

 

[Farsight001]

This law is about the safety of the general public. I’ve always liked the idea of confession but it should not be allowed to serve as a safety net for sex offenders at the expense of innocent children.

Not allowing it will make things worse.

Allowing a person to confess to a priest makes one ashamed of their action and motivates one not to do it again. If they know that the priest has to go to the police, then they just won’t confess it, and not receive the psychological benefits of confession As a result, they’ll just be more likely to repeat-offend than someone who has confessed.

 

[LilyM]

Hmmm. Some people here seem to have forgotten the episode of the woman caught in adultery in the Gospels.

Our Lord did not say to her ‘neither do I condemn you, but in the interests of public morality you still need to submit to the full force of the law and face the legal punishment for your action, and let them stone you to death.’ On the contrary, He simply said ‘go and sin no more.’

The father in the Prodigal Son parable similarly didn’t say ‘welcome back son, I forgive you, but for what you did I will give you only the bare minimum of food and shelter and you will have to work off the money you’ve frittered away.’ He embraced him and lavishly celebrated his homecoming without thought of requiring payback. And just like some of you the faithful son grumbled about the father’s generosity.

I’m certain Christ wants His priests to show the same compassion to any repentant sinner. The seal of the confessional is there so that the repentant can experience forgiveness as He meant it to be experienced.

There are more than enough other places and ways in which earthly justice can be served, and if not the repentant pedophile is probably in for a very long and unpleasant stay in
purgatory. The confessional is for mercy and healing, not merely imperfect earthly justice.