Irish scandals, traditional Catholic culture, and the relation between Church and state

[Stephentlig]

Did some poster make this assumption?

Undoubtedly, but it doesn’t explain why so many ordained and religious abused children in their care.

my fault for not reading your text properly oopsy.

being sinners does explain why so many ordained and religious abused children in their care, we are sinners, and that dirty kind of a mind is all over the world in every instituition, there are many seculars also who are totally unreligious who did this kind of thing to children in their care.

Again my apologies for my misperception of your post.

Stephen<3

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Fact: 97% of abuse in Ireland, takes place within the extended family.

No one disputes this. The point at issue is why so many religious and ordained members of the Church in Ireland abused the children in their care.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

my fault for not reading your text properly oopsy.

being sinners does explain why so many ordained and religious abused children in their care, we are sinners, and that dirty kind of a mind is all over the world in every instituition, there are many seculars also who are totally unreligious who did this kind of thing to children in their care.

Again my apologies for my misperception of your post.

Stephen<3

No need for an apology - I hadn’t taken offence as I didn’t think you were responding to my post I thought someone else made this assumption and was baffled because I couldn’t find the post that said that!

I accept that abuse happens all over the world and is perpetrated by both religious and non-religious. But, like so many people in Ireland this week, I want to know why and how the Church that I grew up in in the 1950s and 1960s and that I love dearly could have known about what was happening to the children in its care and didn’t do anything about it. The ‘we are all sinners’ answer just doesn’t cut it with me.

 

[caro_c]

Sorry, got my percentages wrong.

Ireland
In 86% of child abuse cases, the abuser is likely to be well known to the family, if not a family member.

 

[Stephentlig]

No need for an apology - I hadn’t taken offence as I didn’t think you were responding to my post I thought someone else made this assumption and was baffled because I couldn’t find the post that said that!

I accept that abuse happens all over the world and is perpetrated by both religious and non-religious. But, like so many people in Ireland this week, I want to know why and how the Church that I grew up in in the 1950s and 1960s and that I love dearly could have known about what was happening to the children in its care and didn’t do anything about it. The ‘we are all sinners’ answer just doesn’t cut it with me.

Nobody is giving the ‘‘we are all sinners’’ arguement to justifie what they did, but if there is any hate and unforgivness in your heart for these men, know that it does not come from God but from the one who wants to take you to hell just as much as he wants to take the men who did such things there too.

we must repay evil with love. repaying evil with evil can only produce more evil.
what was done in that past is done its time to forgive.

No, and the answer ‘‘Stephen I’m a sinner’’ wont cut it with me either. nowhere in the Bible have we been commanded to sin but when we do, we must unite and forgive ‘‘For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.’’ Mt:6:14-15

Stephen <3

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Nobody is giving the ‘‘we are all sinners’’ arguement to justifie what they did, but if there is any hate and unforgivness in your heart for these men, know that it does not come from God but from the one who wants to take you to hell just as much as he wants to take the men who did such things there too.

we must repay evil with love. repaying evil with evil can only produce more evil.
what was done in that past is done its time to forgive.

No, and the answer ‘‘Stephen I’m a sinner’’ wont cut it with me either. nowhere in the Bible have we been commanded to sin but when we do, we must unite and forgive ‘‘For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.’’ Mt:6:14-15

Stephen <3

You seem determined to misunderstand me, or at least to avoid my question, so I see no point in continuing.

For the record; I do not hate the religious men and women who perpetrated this catalogue of mental, physical and sexual abuse on children in their care. On the contrary, I want to understand how and why they could do these things, not to justify or excuse them. They are human beings not monsters - uncomfortable and difficult as it is, they are no less deserving of our understanding and compassion than their devastated victims.

 

[Ockham]

Hopefully I’m misreading this thread, but are people suggesting Irish Catholics are more likely to sexually abuse children than other nationalities?

As to the Catholic institutions in Canada scandal, you should know that these were state initiated Native bording schools that three major churches ran on its behalf. I seem to recall the number of incidents were lowest in the Catholic Church with the Anglican and United having higher.

I’ve googled the subject of sex abuse in churches and secular institutions and found it difficult to find really conclusive evidence of where it is higher. What I have found suggests the highest rate of sex abuse occurs in the home, followed by public schools, Protestant churches and then Catholic.

The Catholic Church is the most visible and largest target so it gets attacked the most by the secular media and entertainment industry. Many people’s perception of who is more likely to abuse a child comes from these two sources so it is our duty to carefully point out the facts.

 

[Stephentlig]

The ‘we are all sinners’ answer just doesn’t cut it with me.

this seems to be a very powerful statement from you, and my perception of it was that it was a statement filled with hate, but then again only God knows your heart, and the intention you wrote it with only- he- knows.

how can we know the mind of these men? we understand why they did it because they are sinners thats how we understand. and your statement '‘the ‘‘we are all sinners’ answer just doesnt cut it with me’’ seems to me like your not interested in forgiving them at all, because ultimately there is no other answer a person can give you.

ultimitately only God knows these peoples hearts and minds, our subjective anaylsis comes no where near it, so therefore the discussion is a fallacious one. END

 

[Yellow_Belle]

What does it mean to forgive? To me it means that I do not respond to someone who has hurt me, in a vengeful way - that I do not return evil for evil. It doesn’t mean that I say ‘it doesn’t matter’ or that I attempt to excuse their behaviour or say “we are all sinners” as if that was the sole explanation for their behaviour. Reading Archbishop Martin’s words to the religious congregations, it’s clear he thinks that it isn’t a satisfactory explanation either. Most religious and ordained did/do not abuse, most people do not abuse - yet they were/are sinners, too. So, clearly, being a sinner is not the sole explanation for why people abuse.

I believe I am responding to the perpetrators of abuse in my country’s institutions with compassion and in a manner compatible with my understanding of forgiveness. But I also can readily understand that their victims might not feel as I do.

 

[Seamus_L]

I’m keeping an open mind regarding the recent scandals in Ireland. People in Holy orders or employed by the Catholic Church have most assuredly been guilty of horrific deeds against children, while a good many others have been falsely accused by people every bit as evil, who were in search of monetary gain.
Sorry to put it so bluntly, but claims that "unnamed" committed abuse against "unnamed" in the 1930's, isn't exactly reliable evidence to me.

 

[Stephentlig]

What does it mean to forgive? To me it means that I do not respond to someone who has hurt me, in a vengeful way - that I do not return evil for evil. It doesn’t mean that I say ‘it doesn’t matter’ or that I attempt to excuse their behaviour or say “we are all sinners” as if that was the sole explanation for their behaviour. Reading Archbishop Martin’s words to the religious congregations, it’s clear he thinks that it isn’t a satisfactory explanation either. Most religious and ordained did/do not abuse, most people do not abuse - yet they were/are sinners, too. So, clearly, being a sinner is not the sole explanation for why people abuse.

I believe I am responding to the perpetrators of abuse in my country’s institutions with compassion and in a manner compatible with my understanding of forgiveness. But I alsocan readily understand that their victims might not feel as I do.

It doesn’t mean that I say ‘it doesn’t matter’ or that I attempt to excuse their behaviour or say “we are all sinners” as if that was the sole explanation for their behaviour.

When a mystic came to a priest to tell he him of her experiences, the priest was sceptic, he said, if it really is Jesus speaking to you, then go and ask him what my sins are and then I’ll beleive. The mystic came back with the words, ‘‘excuse me father, but he doesnt remember them’’
when Jesus says ‘‘I forgive you’’ thats it, Jesus does not remember the sins.
as Christians it is our duty to imitate Jesus in this respect.

the sin itself is horrible, but when we forgive, just like Jesus, then we forget.

Most religious and ordained did/do not abuse, most people do not abuse - yet they were/are sinners, too. So, clearly, being a sinner is not the sole explanation for why people abuse.

we all have different sins, there is the difference between the ‘‘sinner’’ and the ‘‘sin’’ he/she commits.

Reading Archbishop Martin’s words to the religious congregations, it’s clear he thinks that it isn’t a satisfactory explanation either.

The archbishop isnt infallible in his words.
if someone asked you, ‘‘Yellow belle, why did you commit that horrible sin of adultery?’’ what would you say? you cannot blame it on anyone else, you cannot blame it on your upbringing, because it was you who commited the sin, thats what happened Adam and Eve, they refused to accept responsibilite for their own actions and blamed it on the serpent and were therefore banished from the garden of Eden.

The only words I could say would be ‘‘Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner,’’ Yes I am to blame and why I did it is beyond me, but please forgive me and help me to live like Jesus and not to sin again. Amen.

a person who says that thats not a good enough answer is one ( in my opinion ) who behaves like the world and is of the world, and has absolutely no forgive and forget in his heart, and if he did have an understanding of what true forgiveness is, he certainly wouldnt boast about it as you have just done.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

When a mystic came to a priest to tell he him of her experiences, the priest was sceptic, he said, if it really is Jesus speaking to you, then go and ask him what my sins are and then I’ll beleive. The mystic came back with the words, ‘‘excuse me father, but he doesnt remember them’’
when Jesus says ‘‘I forgive you’’ thats it, Jesus does not remember the sins.
as Christians it is our duty to imitate Jesus in this respect.

the sin itself is horrible, but when we forgive, just like Jesus, then we forget.

we all have different sins, there is the difference between the ‘‘sinner’’ and the ‘‘sin’’ he/she commits.

The archbishop isnt infallible in his words.
if someone asked you, ‘‘Yellow belle, why did you commit that horrible sin of adultery?’’ what would you say? you cannot blame it on anyone else, you cannot blame it on your upbringing, because it was you who commited the sin, thats what happened Adam and Eve, they refused to accept responsibilite for their own actions and blamed it on the serpent and were therefore banished from the garden of Eden.

The only words I could say would be ‘‘Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner,’’ Yes I am to blame and why I did it is beyond me, but please forgive me and help me to live like Jesus and not to sin again. Amen.

a person who says that thats not a good enough answer is one ( in my opinion ) who behaves like the world and is of the world, and has absolutely no forgive and forget in his heart, and if he did have an understanding of what true forgiveness is, he certainly wouldnt boast about it as you have just done.

I did not say it was not a good answer - I said it was an incomplete one. The Church herself indicates in the catechism that even with a grave sin “affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or **social factors **[may] lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability” (my emphasis).

It is my belief that human beings are not capable of forgetting everything and I believe that’s how the Lord designed us. Can a mother forget that her child has been murdered? Can the people of the US forget that terrorists killed 3,000 of their citizens? Can a victim of abuse simply forget the terrible things inflicted on them? Can I, for that matter, simply forget how badly I behaved towards another person?

None of these things is forgettable and, IMO, none of them should be forgotten. These things happened, and that truth needs to be honoured in our memories. Also, we need to learn from our experience and our mistakes. Such learning would not be possible if we could simply wipe those experiences and those mistakes from our minds.

But however unforgettable an event, it can be forgiven. IMO forgiveness is not about forgetting - none of us is God - but it is about coming to terms with what has happened and moving on. Instead of ‘forgive and forget’, might we not say ‘forgive and move on’? Forgiveness should allow us to remember without bitterness even if the sadness never fades. It should bring us healing at every level, in body, in mind (as constructive thoughts replace destructive ones) and most especially in spirit, as we transcend the evil that was done to us.

True forgiveness confronts the reality of the wrongdoing and deals with it honestly. We live in complex social systems which impose obligations on us to behave according to certain standards. Forgiveness does not and should not take the offender outside that system. Sexual abuse of children is not only a sin, it is a terrible crime. Forgiving the sin does not undermine the victim’s right to legal redress for the crimes committed against them. Pope John Paul II forgave the man who shot him, visiting him in prison to do so. (I can guarantee you he never forgot being shot or who did it) But he did not ask for Ali Agca’s release from prison, understanding that imprisonment was the price demanded by society for the would-be assassin’s actions.

You imply much about me in your final paragraph to which I will not respond except to say that you got my gender wrong

 

[Stephentlig]

I did not say it was not a good answer - I said it was an incomplete one. The Church herself indicates in the catechism that even with a grave sin “affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors [may] lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability” (my emphasis).

whats a complete answer? The Cathechism is giving you the influence of the sin, but not blaming it on on habit or anxiety, when the person commits the sin, nobody is to blame but them. The devil was the influence to Adam and eve, but ultimately they were the ones to blame for the sin.

It is my belief that human beings are not capable of forgetting everything and I believe that’s how the Lord designed us. Can a mother forget that her child has been murdered? Can the people of the US forget that terrorists killed 3,000 of their citizens? Can a victim of abuse simply forget the terrible things inflicted on them? Can I, for that matter, simply forget how badly I behaved towards another person?

Of course we cannot forget big events of the past, but its the emotion that goes with the memorie that we get rid of and thus its this ‘‘forgetting’’ that gets rid of the hurt and upsetness and hate within the person of that particular Memorie thats whats pleasing to Jesus, but until we get rid of this hurt, the memory will remain, most people who get rid of the hurtful feelings of a past memory usually forget the memory of it too if not completely, but they usually dont bring them up again until neccisity requires( i.e court,).

These things happened, and that truth needs to be honoured in our memories

you honour the memory of child abuse?

forgiveness is not about forgetting - none of us is God

nope none of us is God but Jesus said himself that we are to become perfect as our heavenly father is perfect, both ‘‘forgive and forget’’ and ‘‘forgive and move on’’ if not the same words are but the same thing because moving on requires forgetting, you cant move on if you dont forget, we remember the disaster but the emotion of hate goes not with it, yet if we do not forget and keep digging it up, we harm the concsience of our brothers and sisters and lead them into sadness also, there is no need to keep bringing up a subject long gone, unless there be a good cause which in your case there isnt.

True forgiveness confronts the reality of the wrongdoing and deals with it honestly. We live in complex social systems which impose obligations on us to behave according to certain standards.** Forgiveness does not and should not take the offender outside that system.** **Sexual abuse of children is not only a sin, it is a terrible crime. **Forgiving the sin does not undermine the victim’s right to legal redress for the crimes committed against them. Pope John Paul II forgave the man who shot him, visiting him in prison to do so. (I can guarantee you he never forgot being shot or who did it) But he did not ask for Ali Agca’s release from prison, understanding that imprisonment was the price demanded by society for the would-be assassin’s actions.

Yes but if those standards they impose are in contradiction with the church on faith and morals we are not obliged to follow them, as St.Peter says we are to obey God before we obey man ( Acts:5:29 ). of course it should not take the offender outside the system as long as the sound rules of the church are followed which are given in the first sentence are applied, and the system is not corrupted and he/she is dealt with in proper order. It is a crime and justice should be done Yes I dont argue this infallible truth.Rom. 13:3-4 – Paul commends us to those in authority, and exalts a man who “does not bear the sword in vain.” Paul calls such a man “the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.”
I never at all stated that the victim does not have the legal redress for the crimes commited against them.

Now, I’ve got a question for you,

Can you describe the fragrance of a rose?

 

[Yellow_Belle]

whats a complete answer? The Cathechism is giving you the influence of the sin, but not blaming it on on habit or anxiety, when the person commits the sin, nobody is to blame but them. It is saying their moral culpability is reduced not that the sin is any less graveThe devil was the influence to Adam and eve, but ultimately they were the ones to blame for the sin.

Of course we cannot forget big events of the past, but its the emotion that goes with the memorie that we get rid of and thus its this ‘‘forgetting’’ that gets rid of the hurt and upsetness and hate within the person of that particular Memorie thats whats pleasing to Jesus, but until we get rid of this hurt, the memory will remain, most people who get rid of the hurtful feelings of a past memory usually forget the memory of it too if not completely, but they usually dont bring them up again until neccisity requires( i.e court,). That’s way too convoluted for me Can you be a little clearer?

you honour the memory of child abuse? I honour the memory that it happened, just as I honour the memory of what happened on September 11th. In other words, I honour the truth by not forgetting what happened

nope none of us is God but Jesus said himself that we are to become perfect as our heavenly father is perfect, both ‘‘forgive and forget’’ and ‘‘forgive and move on’’ if not the same words are but the same thing because moving on requires forgetting, you cant move on if you dont forget ** Really? So all those people who have managed to move on from some trauma in their lives have forgotten all about that trauma? You might need to think that one through again** we remember the disaster but the emotion of hate goes not with it, yet if we do not forget and keep digging it up, we harm the concsience of our brothers and sisters and lead them into sadness also, there is no need to keep bringing up a subject long gone, unless there be a good cause which in your case there isnt. ** Well that’s me put in my place - - I think **QUOTE]

 

[Stephentlig]

Really? So all those people who have managed to move on from some trauma in their lives have forgotten all about that trauma? You might need to think that one through again

Oh listen to her would you? on other words what Yellow belle has a theory, ‘‘you gotta remember horrible experiences otherwise you wouldnt be human’’

Let me explain, without sounding too convolute.

By revisiting a past memory you leave the present moment, ( a moment that gives you the oppertunity to love ) and you revisit the past horrible trauma, which brings you into sadness, whats the point of revisiting a memory ( that only by the grace of God you forget ) if its only gonna make you upset? Dont we all have a right to be happy? or maybe Yellow belle is gonna come up with another theory, that consists of the words ‘‘you’ve gotta be upset, otherwise you wouldnt be human’’

let me sum it up with a little anecdote,:

uhhhh a single woman is upset that she is single so decides to get rid of the upsetness goes to the cinema to watch a comedy, she is laughing her head off, and her upsetness leaves her, then, all of a sudden she comes out of the cinema so happy and she sees a couple holding hands together and walking off down the street cuddling, then, she suddenly remembers that she is single and she is upset and depressed again.

THATS LIFE FOR EVERYONE

but it should’nt have to be, its one of the many chains we must break in order to be happy and thats the chain of past memories that only bring depression and upsetness in ones life unless that person sets about getting rid of it by the grace of God.

Well that’s me put in my place - - I think

( proverbs 12:1 )

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Oh listen to her would you? on other words what Yellow belle has a theory, ‘‘you gotta remember horrible experiences otherwise you wouldnt be human’’

Let me explain, without sounding too convolute.

By revisiting a past memory you leave the present moment, ( a moment that gives you the oppertunity to love ) and you revisit the past horrible trauma, which brings you into sadness, whats the point of revisiting a memory ( that only by the grace of God you forget ) if its only gonna make you upset? Dont we all have a right to be happy? or maybe Yellow belle is gonna come up with another theory, that consists of the words ‘‘you’ve gotta be upset, otherwise you wouldnt be human’’

let me sum it up with a little anecdote,:

uhhhh a single woman is upset that she is single so decides to get rid of the upsetness goes to the cinema to watch a comedy, she is laughing her head off, and her upsetness leaves her, then, all of a sudden she comes out of the cinema so happy and she sees a couple holding hands together and walking off down the street cuddling, then, she suddenly remembers that she is single and she is upset and depressed again.

THATS LIFE FOR EVERYONE

but it should’nt have to be, its one of the many chains we must break in order to be happy and thats the chain of past memories that only bring depression and upsetness in ones life unless that person sets about getting rid of it by the grace of God.

( proverbs 12:1 )

If all you’ve got is personal ridicule and pointless ‘anecdotes’, this discussion is going nowhere.

Could I remind you that personal attacks on another poster are against Forum Rules.

I asked you for clarity because I found your syntax too difficult to follow. I’m no wiser from what you’ve written. When you calm down, perhaps you could try again? And even if clarity cannot be achieved, I’d appreciate some civility.

I apologise to the OP and other posters for being party to taking this thread hopelessly off-topic.

If Stephentlig wants to take this to Private Messaging, I’ve no problem with that. Or perhaps start a new thread?

 

[redrosetea]

I might be 100% wrong and I am only wondering not accusing. Ireland suffered such religious presecution that I am wondering if somehow certain people became emotionally damaged and took it out on others, who then took it out on others…I know many people from Ireland are certainly gentle and kind

I have a neighbor from N Ireland that is wonderful…She laughs and says you know how I am when I get my Irish up…well she can be snarky ,but she certainly wouldn’t ever have hurt anyone let alone a child

It seems that religion isn’t just sort of an instrument to inflict pain among the Catholics…I just found this article on the net about a group of Protestants that murdered a Catholic man, who was a total stranger, just because they wanted to

I honestly think Ireland’s sad history might play some part in what happened to some people, and the problem just perpetuated itself

breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98DEIAO0&show_article=1

 

[Yellow_Belle]

I might be 100% wrong and I am only wondering not accusing. Ireland suffered such religious presecution that I am wondering if somehow certain people became emotionally damaged and took it out on others, who then took it out on others…I know many people from Ireland are certainly gentle and kind

I have a neighbor from N Ireland that is wonderful…She laughs and says you know how I am when I get my Irish up…well she can be snarky ,but she certainly wouldn’t ever have hurt anyone let alone a child

It seems that religion isn’t just sort of an instrument to inflict pain among the Catholics…I just found this article on the net about a group of Protestants that murdered a Catholic man, who was a total stranger, just because they wanted to

I honestly think Ireland’s sad history might play some part in what happened to some people, and the problem just perpetuated itself

breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98DEIAO0&show_article=1

Interesting idea, redrosetea. Studies do tend to show that those who have been abused have a greater chance of becoming abusers. It doesn’t always follow, of course, but I wonder how many of those who abused had been abused?

 

[Stephentlig]

If all you’ve got is personal ridicule and pointless ‘anecdotes’, this discussion is going nowhere.

Could I remind you that personal attacks on another poster are against Forum Rules.

I asked you for clarity because I found your syntax too difficult to follow. I’m no wiser from what you’ve written. When you calm down, perhaps you could try again? And even if clarity cannot be achieved, I’d appreciate some civility.

I apologise to the OP and other posters for being party to taking this thread hopelessly off-topic.

If Stephentlig wants to take this to Private Messaging, I’ve no problem with that. Or perhaps start a new thread?

Where have I made a personal attack?

I asked you for clarity because I found your syntax too difficult to follow.

Yes and I have clarified things with my anecdote in order to give you an understanding of why its important to ‘‘forget’’ some things in order to move on and be happy. I’m showing you how revisiting an old traumatic or sorrowful memory can shift ones happines into sadness, and unless the past memory is dealt with the person cannot be happy.

I’m no wiser from what you’ve written.

I have not undermined your wisdom, I’m no wiser than you or anyone on this forum, if what I say is good and is not in contradiction with church teaching on faith and morals then it came not from me but from the paraclete.

When you calm down, perhaps you could try again?

Provide me with evidence in my post that conveys me as angry?
was it my capitlized letters perhaps? they were just there for emphasis, perhaps I should of bolded them instead, as the capitals makes it look like I am shouting.

And even if clarity cannot be achieved, I’d appreciate some civility.

Its not my fault that you upset yourself on the occasion of the proverb that was given.
I was simply telling you that you should accept correction.

the whole premise of the discussion is this…it is pointless bringing up past traumas they do no good.
( Proverbs:12:1)

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Where have I made a personal attack? Read the Forum Rules. Read what you have written. Apply

Yes and I have clarified things with my anecdote in order to give you an understanding of why its important to ‘‘forget’’ some things in order to move on and be happy. I’m showing you how revisiting an old traumatic or sorrowful memory can shift ones happines into sadness, and unless the past memory is dealt with the person cannot be happy. So you agree that traumatic memories need to be dealt with before someone can move on? Well, that’s progress I suppose

I’m no wiser from what you’ve written. I apologise for my lack of clarity. How can I improve?

I have not undermined your wisdom, I’m no wiser than you or anyone on this forum, if what I say is good and is not in contradiction with church teaching on faith and morals then it came not from me but from the paraclete. Is anything I’ve said in contradiction of Church teaching, faith or morals?

When you calm down, perhaps you could try again? Nice try, but it won’t fly.

Provide me with evidence in my post that conveys me as angry?
was it my capitlized letters perhaps? they were just there for emphasis, perhaps I should of bolded them instead, as the capitals makes it look like I am shouting.

Its not my fault that you upset yourself on the occasion of the proverb that was given. No idea what you’re talking about. Oh, I see, you quoted Proverbs - I missed that in your post. Here’s one for you: Shakespeare Merchant of Venice i. iii. 93
I was simply telling you that you should accept correction. ** I already have a spiritual director, thanks, one with a bit more authority than you.**

the whole premise of the discussion is this…it is pointless bringing up past traumas they do no good. Really? I understood that we were discussing the nature of forgiveness and whether or not forgetting was essential to it.
( Proverbs:12:1)