Irrefutable Proof against being born gay?

[horselvr]

His mother put a dress on him, gave him dolls to play with and kept him away from his father.

LOL! I’m actually still waiting for a likely answer. I still haven’t heard yet why a child at age 4 would be so VERY feminine.

I’m not talking about a “little feminine” when I speak of this child as someone here said trying to put words in my mouth to advance their opinion on this topic.

I am also not swayed by the media as someone else tried to suggest. I can’t remember one time being influenced by the media—I actually voted for McCain.

And honestly, maybe the somewhat feminine men YOU and your wife know are really and truly straight but I too have been on this old earth a long time and I really and truly have not found that to be true.

I have spent well over 40 yrs showing horses and over 20 yrs showing dogs and trust me the feminine men I know, really and truly are gay.

As an aside just for those that don’t believe there is this same issue in the animal world: There is a stallion across the road from me and at least three times a week he is convinced he is in love with his hay roll. He is also in a big pasture with an intact male and they really and truly do have very high opinions of each other.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Irrefutable proof against being born gay?
Not that easy, in very few cases are there black and white concepts (not being racist here)
Sexuality appears to be many shades of gray. Elastic, flexible. The edges of what constitutes male and female seem to blurr.
Many experiments have been done - all ending in failure - to determine reasons for sexual orientation.
A person may at times behave in classically characteristic ways of the opposite sex and then swing back. Then there’s the questioning period during youth, questioning boundaries, challenging concepts.
Most people are a mixture of the classical characteristics of both male and female.

 

[remjsmom76]

LOL! I’m actually still waiting for a likely answer. I still haven’t heard yet why a child at age 4 would be so VERY feminine.

I’m not talking about a “little feminine” when I speak of this child as someone here said trying to put words in my mouth to advance their opinion on this topic.

I am also not swayed by the media as someone else tried to suggest. I can’t remember one time being influenced by the media—I actually voted for McCain.

And honestly, maybe the somewhat feminine men YOU and your wife know are really and truly straight but I too have been on this old earth a long time and I really and truly have not found that to be true.

I have spent well over 40 yrs showing horses and over 20 yrs showing dogs and trust me the feminine men I know, really and truly are gay.

As an aside just for those that don’t believe there is this same issue in the animal world: There is a stallion across the road from me and at least three times a week he is convinced he is in love with his hay roll. He is also in a big pasture with an intact male and they really and truly do have very high opinions of each other.

You know, when my daughter started middle school, I met this man who seemed REALLY feminine, just like you said. I seriously thought he was gay. I mean the sport my daughter is in, with his daughter is one where you see only moms at…and hes about the ONLY man that is there. He talks about how the girls hair should be and he knows his “woman” stuff so well. THEN I met his wife, and his other kids. That threw me for a loopty loop. thats the only man whom Ive met that is as feminine as he is and is married with kids. His wife though…nice and wonderful as she is, is VERY MASCULINE IN character though. Im not kidding…they are very VERY nice people and the sweetest people…but a bit backwards in character and attitude when it comes to man and woman.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

…but a bit backwards in character and attitude when it comes to man and woman.

Please explain ! This only shows your prejudice.

 

[remjsmom76]

Please explain ! This only shows your prejudice.

I dont know what you want me to explain or how…no matter what I may say, it may seem like I’m being prejudice.

 

[Canardmom85]

“I Was Born This Way”

Many homosexuals argue that they have not chosen their condition, but that they were born that way, making homosexual behavior natural for them.

But because something was not chosen does not mean it was inborn. Some desires are acquired or strengthened by habituation and conditioning instead of by conscious choice. For example, no one chooses to be an alcoholic, but one can become habituated to alcohol. Just as one can acquire alcoholic desires (by repeatedly becoming intoxicated) without consciously choosing them, so one may acquire homosexual desires (by engaging in homosexual fantasies or behavior) without consciously choosing them.
catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
Since sexual desire is subject to a high degree of cognitive conditioning in humans (there is no biological reason why we find certain scents, forms of dress, or forms of underwear sexually stimulating), it would be most unusual if homosexual desires were not subject to a similar degree of cognitive conditioning.

Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive), the behavior remains unnatural because homosexuality is still not part of the natural design of humanity. It does not make homosexual behavior acceptable; other behaviors are not rendered acceptable simply because there may be a genetic predisposition toward them.

For example, scientific studies suggest some people are born with a hereditary disposition to alcoholism, but no one would argue someone ought to fulfill these inborn urges by becoming an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not an acceptable “lifestyle” any more than homosexuality is.

 

[peduzzi89]

I would care to know why there is so much emphasis on the specific cause of being gay. We know people don’t just up and decide to go gay one morning when they wake up, nor do all gay men have distant fathers and overbearing mothers…there is an exception to every argument that’s been made of the cause. That seems to be the most irrelevant of the issues surrounding homosexuality.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

“I Was Born This Way”

Many homosexuals argue that they have not chosen their condition, but that they were born that way, making homosexual behavior natural for them.

But because something was not chosen does not mean it was inborn. Some desires are acquired or strengthened by habituation and conditioning instead of by conscious choice. For example, no one chooses to be an alcoholic, but one can become habituated to alcohol. Just as one can acquire alcoholic desires (by repeatedly becoming intoxicated) without consciously choosing them, so one may acquire homosexual desires (by engaging in homosexual fantasies or behavior) without consciously choosing them.
catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
Since sexual desire is subject to a high degree of cognitive conditioning in humans (there is no biological reason why we find certain scents, forms of dress, or forms of underwear sexually stimulating), it would be most unusual if homosexual desires were not subject to a similar degree of cognitive conditioning.

Even if there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality (and studies on this point are inconclusive), the behavior remains unnatural because homosexuality is still not part of the natural design of humanity. It does not make homosexual behavior acceptable; other behaviors are not rendered acceptable simply because there may be a genetic predisposition toward them.

For example, scientific studies suggest some people are born with a hereditary disposition to alcoholism, but no one would argue someone ought to fulfill these inborn urges by becoming an alcoholic. Alcoholism is not an acceptable “lifestyle” any more than homosexuality is.

Argument put forward for the support of cognitive behaviour therapy in the treatment of homosexuality. We are yet to determine that it is a disease.

 

[PassingThru]

I would care to know why there is so much emphasis on the specific cause of being gay. We know people don’t just up and decide to go gay one morning when they wake up, nor do all gay men have distant fathers and overbearing mothers…there is an exception to every argument that’s been made of the cause. That seems to be the most irrelevant of the issues surrounding homosexuality.

I think it is important to those who wish to more strongly condemn or judge those who are gay. Let me explain…

Observation: There are basically two types of people. Ill summarize them below:

“Choicers” - Any combination of individual choice, upbringing, parents, peer pressure etc. Important factor is that the person is in control of his/her sexuality. Blank slate at birth.

“Naturals” - Bottom line explanation, people are born gay. It may be genetic, chemical, physical (brain) malformation, anything. But they are gay when they say hello to the world.

Pretty crude, but it is roughly accurate. Of course, the third group is those that think it is a combination, or frankly just don’t know.

Now, here is my realization with this and other threads. Those that are most stridently against gays are almost exclusively “Choicers”, and to a lesser extent, those with more liberal or passive views are “Naturals”. Really, think about it. How many of the vocal people speaking against homosexuality fall in the “Natural” category?

To me, this makes a lot of sense. If you are in the more aggressive “anti-gay” camp, it is required that you believe the individual be held responsible in order for your feelings or judgments to be palatable to your own mind. Go back and read the posts on this thread and on others here on CAF. With near certainty, this relationship holds.

Those more passive on the homosexual issues seem to fall into both camps. It is not quite as clear cut.

Anyway, in summary, the reason so many people DO make a big deal and jump up and down, is to defend their own thoughts, or morality, of the views they have towards gays.

I have made my thoughts known, so I guess I fall into the third category.

 

[peduzzi89]

True true, I realize your point…I guess I was hoping my point begged the question, should that be taken into consideration when talking about gay issues?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Some people claim that by making the other person look to be at fault it automatically justifies or makes stronger their own position.

“I cannot be gay, I condemn the homosexual. Look how very heterosexual I am.”

 

[PassingThru]

True true, I realize your point…I guess I was hoping my point begged the question, should that be taken into consideration when talking about gay issues?

Yeah, sorry, your previous post just got me to thinking and I typed up that whole response! To me, no, it is largely irrelevant.

 

[Caroline17]

I believe the science is there to tell us some people are born gay.

Since some of the posts starting discussing us judging gay people I’ll add my 2 cents. As a female growing up on Capital Hill in Seattle, being gay was cool to people. Look at all the women on women stuff now, women think it’s attractive to men to get with another woman, and it is!!to many men. Then these girls will claim to be gay for a few years, or decades and switch back, or just stay when they had been happy with men at one point, but have found a same sex signifigant other and don’t believe it’s morally wrong, are committed to that person and it sticks and then eventually they couldn’t bear the idea of being with a man. I’m a female welder, and I’m typically the only straight female, but they discuss it with me.

I feel compassion for people who are truly born gay, in most places or all, it’s a harder life. Gay people are no different than you and I. I can’t believe I’m even saying that of course they’re not. We all have genes for different traits.

You know what though? I was born heterosexual, and I don’t get to have sex until I’m married. God is not going to have an act be ok, that prevents our survival on earth from being possible, that’s why we say it breaks natural laws. Being gay is biologically a bad mutation of genes, if it was a good one then that’s how we would evolve, to all being gay. But it’s not a natural act, it’s the goal of every species in the animal kingdom to survive. To survive mate reporduce, and have our genes and offspring survive.

I have had sex, I sinned, but I’m not doing it again. If you are gay and not being able to have sex makes you feel like you’re suffering, then ask God to help you to be attracted to the opposite sex, if you don’t want to do that then accept your suffering as a gift from God, and look to Him for Peace in it and to become closer to him. If I never get married then I don’t get to have sex ever again, and I ask for peace in that. We all have our crosses to bear. I like sex a lot like most everybody, but it’s not the toughest thing to go without either. Priests, nuns, monks, many people in many belief systems abstain from sex intentionally to live spiritually stronger lives.

You can be very strongly against practising homosexual acts without judging a gay person as bad. It was bad for me to have sex before marriage, but I’m not a bad person.

 

[avflf]

Really? REALLY? We actually have someone pulling Leviticus out like some sort of moral trump card? Wow.

Please go back and post your logic on which of the myriad of truly backward and misguided instructions you choose to follow, and which you don’t.

In the meantime, I will go find a handful that YOU have violated, then condemn you to death by stoning. I get the added bonus of being able to hold up a quote from the bible and fully justify it as well. With a side of self-righteousness as well.

As Cornerstone said, some of these comments are sad. Honestly, do people really wonder why the gay culture as a whole avoids Catholic, or for that matter, many other Christian religions entirely? Look at this collection of posts. This is a small but accurate cross section of the **** that any gay parishioner brave enough to step foot in a church has to deal with. I don’t think I could be so bold.

Also, for the third or fourth time, can ANYONE please explain when they made the choice to be straight? Warpspeed has tried and failed. His combination of condemnation, long term voluntary celibacy, and complete lack sexual expression has me questioning his own comfort with sexuality. Will anyone else step to the plate on this issue?

Goodness me, what an outburst of self-righteous indignation. I expect you have expurgated Leviticus from your Bible and confined it to the dustbin. And you also tore out all those chapters containing, as you so eloquently put it, *" the myriad of truly backward and misguided instructions" *
How dare anyone affirm their faith in the God of the Bible and the Sacred Writings and then pick and choose that which suits his/her perception of morality. You can’t have it both ways; that would be hypocritical.

(Jos 24:15) “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;” You KNOW what the alternative is

 

[PeterMuz]

Also, for the third or fourth time, can ANYONE please explain when they made the choice to be straight? Warpspeed has tried and failed. His combination of condemnation, long term voluntary celibacy, and complete lack sexual expression has me questioning his own comfort with sexuality. Will anyone else step to the plate on this issue?

So I answered your question and you ignored it. Do you have no response or was that the answer you were looking for?

 

[Hugh_Millity]

Folks, I have been following this thread and at the end of the day, whether people are “born gay” or not, God is still calling people with homosexual desires to a celibate lifestyle of service to Him and others (if they feel they are too disordered to pursue marriage). God knows that we are not always faithful to the Church’s teachings and, through lack of instruction and perseverance in our youth, many pick up bad habits and views when it comes to sexual morality (think masturbation, pornography, fornication, adultery, contraception-- we are all equal opportunity sinners). For this reason, many spend their adults lives "peeling the onion” of sin to live the life of purity and grace God is calling all of us to live. That is why we have the gifts of the sacraments of Confession and Eucharist to help us. Whether or not there are natural or chosen roots to homosexual desires, we know that with God all things are possible- he can transform any person or any situation. I do believe that many people are indeed born with this predisposition. But that still does not make it moral or good for them or society for that matter. Though this may be one of the toughest crosses to bear, many others are born with other struggles, including a propensity to pride, rage, alcoholism, pedophilia, sloth, jealousy, selfishness, etc. Many of us have our own personality deficits which may be just as dire at keeping us from heaven as the sin of homosexuality if we are not careful. That is why, as fellow sinners, we must try to “dive in front of the moving bus of sin” to try to push our brothers and sisters with same-sex attraction to eternal safety. Don’t water down the issue with moral grayness or be wishy-washy out of a false sense of love-- the stakes are too high.

 

[PassingThru]

How dare anyone affirm their faith in the God of the Bible and the Sacred Writings and then pick and choose that which suits his/her perception of morality. You can’t have it both ways; that would be hypocritical.

So, I assume you also:

Don’t eat clams, oysters, crabs, lobsters, or shrimp?
Prevent women who gave birth to a son from entering the church for 33 days?
Prevent women who gave birth to a daughter from entering the church for 66 days? (Girls are apparently doubly dirty)
Don’t trim the edges of your hair or beard? (That may be just priests, don’t remember)
Want to burn all priests daughters who engage in premarital sex?

Well, you get the idea. There are far more than this. So, you just said that to not agree to all of this is hypocritical. And yes, these I just listed and many others are “backward and misguided”. Or do you disagree?

Look, my point is that using a quote from Leviticus to rationalize your views on homosexuality is, to me, questionable. I think you are instructed to kill them, if I remember the passage correctly. I don’t think we get those instructions elsewhere in the bible. Someone correct me there if needed. I think people justify that little extra “hatred” with that wonderful instruction to kill. That is all.

 

[PassingThru]

So I answered your question and you ignored it. Do you have no response or was that the answer you were looking for?

Well, your answer was that you didn’t choose to be straight, you just are. That is also how I feel. If I remember correctly you use some passages in the bible to say we are all made in Gods image, ergo straight, and those that are not straight could only be so by choosing to reject Gods design. Fine. I would place your view on the possible reason for people being gay as a strictly theological one, which can only be viewed as a matter of faith. I can not prove your wrong, nor can I attack a matter of your faith. You basically re-worked the question to be “everyone is straight, gay people choose not to be”. I disagree, but can not in any way prove you wrong.

 

[Hugh_Millity]

Wow “PassingThru”. That’s pretty harsh. The Catechism says to do none of those things. And based on Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition, it is the truth and is not inconsistent. Live by it and be happy in this life and the next. Trying to twist it and find holes in scripture to justify a relativistic view on morals can only lead to oblivion. Just sayin’.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

I believe the science is there to tell us some people are born gay.

Since some of the posts starting discussing us judging gay people I’ll add my 2 cents. As a female growing up on Capital Hill in Seattle, being gay was cool to people. Look at all the women on women stuff now, women think it’s attractive to men to get with another woman, and it is!!to many men. Then these girls will claim to be gay for a few years, or decades and switch back, or just stay when they had been happy with men at one point, but have found a same sex signifigant other and don’t believe it’s morally wrong, are committed to that person and it sticks and then eventually they couldn’t bear the idea of being with a man. I’m a female welder, and I’m typically the only straight female, but they discuss it with me.

I feel compassion for people who are truly born gay, in most places or all, it’s a harder life. Gay people are no different than you and I. I can’t believe I’m even saying that of course they’re not. We all have genes for different traits.

You know what though? I was born heterosexual, and I don’t get to have sex until I’m married. God is not going to have an act be ok, that prevents our survival on earth from being possible, that’s why we say it breaks natural laws. Being gay is biologically a bad mutation of genes, if it was a good one then that’s how we would evolve, to all being gay. But it’s not a natural act, it’s the goal of every species in the animal kingdom to survive. To survive mate reporduce, and have our genes and offspring survive.

I have had sex, I sinned, but I’m not doing it again. If you are gay and not being able to have sex makes you feel like you’re suffering, then ask God to help you to be attracted to the opposite sex, if you don’t want to do that then accept your suffering as a gift from God, and look to Him for Peace in it and to become closer to him. If I never get married then I don’t get to have sex ever again, and I ask for peace in that. We all have our crosses to bear. I like sex a lot like most everybody, but it’s not the toughest thing to go without either. Priests, nuns, monks, many people in many belief systems abstain from sex intentionally to live spiritually stronger lives.

You can be very strongly against practising homosexual acts without judging a gay person as bad. It was bad for me to have sex before marriage, but I’m not a bad person.

Hi Caroline, Very intelligent post. I have often wondered why it is only male homosexuality that is condemned while female homosexuality is actively promoted. Gay is unnatural either way. It is repugnant either way, and it doesn’t make sense that men like looking at female homosexual acts. (I don’t know any women who want to look at male homosexual acts.)