Irrefutable Proof against being born gay?

[fix]

When the catechism states that they do not choose their homosexual condition this does not mean that they were born that way. Some priests on EWTN have said that their is a lot of evidence out their that says that something happens in their early upbringing or environment that causes them to identify and bond more with the opposite sex parent. So if this happens they did not choose their trial.

On September 8, 1997, Pope John Paul II formally promulgated the editio typica (the definitive Latin language edition) of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The next day the modifications to the original editions, published in the various modem languages, were made public. The modifications are intended to bring the texts of the modem language editions into conformity with the Latin text. This booklet contains the modifications to the English language text published in the United States in 1994 in trade editions and in 1995 in mass market editions. The numbers in bold preceding each of the modifications correspond to paragraph numbers in the original editions of the *Catechism

*** 2358 ** The second sentence of this paragraph is to be changed to read as follows: **This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/updates.htm

This is how it reads:

**2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[avflf]

OK, I see that you missed the context of that post. Call it an analogy. See, what I was doing was a play on your post. I posted an independent source, implying that I am saying, in this case, you are a bigot. But, I didn’t say it, and actually, I didn’t even mention you at all. So now, in my defense, I can back off and say “hey, I was just communicating what a bigot is, its not my fault you somehow take offense at that”.

And yes, I did get distracted and pulled into this debate willingly. It is not central to the OPs issue. But I somehow get the feeling you forget where this started. Someone posted that this discussion is not being very charitable to those in the gay community. YOU responded that the bible says we are to kill homosexuals. Granted, you are now playing the nice little game of I didn’t say it, God said it. Hence, my little play on you with my bigot definition. You apparently did not connect the dots there. No matter.

Look, you made your thoughts on how you look at homosexuals very clear. I thought it was offensive and not necessary. I can see now why no one else jumped in to point this out. It doesn’t go anywhere.

Allow me a response
There’s a slight difference in the two approaches. This is a Catholic/Christian Forum and the great majority of posters are Bible believers and accept the inspiration of God on what is written in the book and which is quoted at length for moral and theological arguments. Yet, in this instance, they went to great lengths to disassociate themselves with the clear, yet callous, commandment of the Biblical God, in the very book they hold as life’s blue-print. Everyone was invoking “love” and “charity” as the inspired solution to the problem. That’s what I objected to. I cannot comment on the origins of sexual preference and personally I embrace the code of “live and let live”. My post was not an attack on homosexuality but a test of the convictions of Bible believers. The reason why no one “jumped in” is, perhaps, because they couldn’t, really. How can one that believes the Bible is inspired by the God they worship and deeply believe Him to be a God of Love, defend what this God actually said in this occasion, or His command in Exo 22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”, which the Church took as literally inspired and was quick to comply . One either accepts that He said what He meant and meant what He said or not. And if not, one must discard the idea of “Sacred Scripture”. There are a lot of things in the Bible that are edifying but alongside them there are many that are just plain rubbish, unworthy to be tied to divine revelation. Unfortunately for a Believer the whole thing comes as a package. Catholics are fortunate they have the Catechism and can use it instead of the Bible but other Christian denominations do not have such luxury. So, PassingThru, your sly charge of “bigotry”, in a post that was not even addressed to you, was uncalled for and shows how people jump to conclusions. And you should know that “bigotry” cuts both ways.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Allow me a response
There’s a slight difference in the two approaches. This is a Catholic/Christian Forum and the great majority of posters are Bible believers and accept the inspiration of God on what is written in the book and which is quoted at length for moral and theological arguments. Yet, in this instance, they went to great lengths to disassociate themselves with the clear, yet callous, commandment of the Biblical God, in the very book they hold as life’s blue-print. Everyone was invoking “love” and “charity” as the inspired solution to the problem. That’s what I objected to. I cannot comment on the origins of sexual preference and personally I embrace the code of “live and let live”. My post was not an attack on homosexuality but a test of the convictions of Bible believers. The reason why no one “jumped in” is, perhaps, because they couldn’t, really. How can one that believes the Bible is inspired by the God they worship and deeply believe Him to be a God of Love, defend what this God actually said in this occasion, or His command in Exo 22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”, which the Church took as literally inspired and was quick to comply . One either accepts that He said what He meant and meant what He said or not. And if not, one must discard the idea of “Sacred Scripture”. There are a lot of things in the Bible that are edifying but alongside them there are many that are just plain rubbish, unworthy to be tied to divine revelation. Unfortunately for a Believer the whole thing comes as a package. Catholics are fortunate they have the Catechism and can use it instead of the Bible but other Christian denominations do not have such luxury. So, PassingThru, your sly charge of “bigotry”, in a post that was not even addressed to you, was uncalled for and shows how people jump to conclusions. And you should know that “bigotry” cuts both ways.

An argument against Sola Scriptura?

As I read this I’m reminded of a Charlie Chaplin look-alike competition. The real Charlie Chaplin entered and came second.

• Do you believe in God?
• Yes.
• Which one?

 

[Jermosh]

Jermosh;6281080:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
Part 3
Life in Christ
Section 2 The Ten Commandments
Chapter 2 “You shall love your neighbour as youself” (Unless he is homosexual)

2357 - (Homosexuality is forbidden)

2358 - (It’s a trial)

2359 - (Homosexuals are called to chastity)

I am talking about where it states “They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial.” this is not in the Vatican nor the USCCB. I am wondering where it came from?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

KEVIN WILCOX;6281175:

I am talking about where it states “They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial.” this is not in the Vatican nor the USCCB. I am wondering where it came from?

2357: …Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained…

2358]:…This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial…these persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2360: Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion.

Catholic Doctrine is that all sexual activity must take place between consenting couples within a marriage and one of the objectives must be for the production of children.

Next we will be discussing masturbation. At least Catholic beliefs are not as absurd as the Tibetan Buddhists’ who believe a person who masturbates is reborn with their hand welded to their genitals (They teach homosexuals are reborn as dogs).

 

[Jermosh]

Jermosh;6284633:

2357

: …Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained…

2358]:…This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial…these persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

**2360: Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion.

Catholic Doctrine is that all sexual activity must take place between consenting couples within a marriage and one of the objectives must be for the production of children.

Next we will be discussing masturbation. At least Catholic beliefs are not as absurd as the Tibetan Buddhists’ who believe a person who masturbates is reborn with their hand welded to their genitals (They teach homosexuals are reborn as dogs).**
I am not sure what your intent is. I am only looking for where this quote of the CCC came from. I cannot find it on the USCCB or Vatican site, I have seen it pasted here a few times and wondering where it came from.
“2(sic)358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. **They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. **This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

KEVIN WILCOX;6284884:

I am not sure what your intent is. I am only looking for where this quote of the CCC came from. I cannot find it on the USCCB or Vatican site, I have seen it pasted here a few times and wondering where it came from.
"2(sic)358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. **They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. **

This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

Jermosh, trying to be of service bare with me. Thanks.
2358: “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligable. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.” (in toto)

2357: "…Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that ‘homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered’…

"They do not choose their homosexual condition " appears to be corrupt/precis textual addition.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, impramatur potest Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, English translation, St Pauls - Society of St Paul, Australia, 1998. ISBN 1 875570 61 1 (pocket edition)

 

[Moscati]

KEVIN WILCOX;6284884:

I am not sure what your intent is. I am only looking for where this quote of the CCC came from. I cannot find it on the USCCB or Vatican site, I have seen it pasted here a few times and wondering where it came from.
"2(sic)358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. **They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. **

This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

Here:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#IV

This is the Vatican’s website. Scroll down to 2358. (The language is the same.)

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Jermosh;6284942:

Here:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#IV

This is the Vatican’s website. Scroll down to 2358. (The language is the same.)

“How wonderful, how beautiful, when brothers and sisters get along…Yes, that’s where God commands the blessing, ordains eternal life” (The Message, Ps 133:1,3)

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Life Site News.com, London, February 11, 2010:

         "Britain's left-leaning Catholic magazine, *the Tablet*, has called for the Catholic Church to "if not doctrinally, at least pastorally" change its teaching on homosexuality. The Catholic Church, said an unsigned editorial titled *"The Deepest Human Desire"* should "move on with confidence," to facilitate greater acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle or risk losing public approval...
         *The Tablet* implied support of none other than Pope Benedict XV1 for this position, saying that his encyclical *Deus Caritas Est* supplies a "context" for understanding that homosexual relationships should be "treasured and respected"...
          John Smeaton, the head of the U.K.'s Society for the Protection of Unborn Children said the editorial "goes beyond mere opinion, and is in fact a manifesto for homosexual equality."

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

To me, this makes a lot of sense. If you are in the more aggressive “anti-gay” camp, it is required that you believe the individual be held responsible in order for your feelings or judgments to be palatable to your own mind.

I don’t speak for anyone but myself, but the reason I am ‘anti’ homosexual lies at the feet of homosexual activists. They are trying to re-form our society to conform to their sexual orientation. They are in our schools, not teaching ‘tolerance’ to our children, but recruiting them to a homosexual life. They demand tolerance for themselves and are the most intolerant people in our society. They are liars, cheats and devious manipulators of public opinion. They are fundamentally dishonest people and if you want to sell them to me, I have to tell you, it’s a lost cause.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I don’t speak for anyone but myself, but the reason I am ‘anti’ homosexual lies at the feet of homosexual activists. They are trying to re-form our society to conform to their sexual orientation. They are in our schools, not teaching ‘tolerance’ to our children, but recruiting them to a homosexual life. They demand tolerance for themselves and are the most intolerant people in our society. They are liars, cheats and devious manipulators of public opinion. They are fundamentally dishonest people and if you want to sell them to me, I have to tell you, it’s a lost cause.

“Oppressed people are frequently very oppressive when first liberated…They know best two positions.Somebody’s foot on their neck or their foot on somebody’s neck” (Florence Kennedy)

“Nothing is clearer in history than the adoption by successful rebels of the methods they were accustomed to condemn in the forces they deposed” (Will and Ariel Durant)

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

“Oppressed people are frequently very oppressive when first liberated…They know best two positions.Somebody’s foot on their neck or their foot on somebody’s neck” (Florence Kennedy)

“Nothing is clearer in history than the adoption by successful rebels of the methods they were accustomed to condemn in the forces they deposed” (Will and Ariel Durant)

Hogwash! When you answer my points with that tripe, it’s clear you have nothing to say.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I don’t speak for anyone but myself, but the reason I am ‘anti’ homosexual lies at the feet of homosexual activists. They are trying to re-form our society to conform to their sexual orientation. They are in our schools, not teaching ‘tolerance’ to our children, but recruiting them to a homosexual life. They demand tolerance for themselves and are the most intolerant people in our society. They are liars, cheats and devious manipulators of public opinion. They are fundamentally dishonest people and if you want to sell them to me, I have to tell you, it’s a lost cause.

I’m not trying to sell you on homosexuality. Neither am I attempting to recruit your children. I’m listening to where the homosexual may be psychologically coming from. I have seen people suicide from feelings of rejection and failure because of the shame of their homosexuality. I don’t want this to happen to anyone. The CCC advocates toleration and acceptance of the person. I am not advocating homosexuality, I am attempting an avenue of healing to a suffering individual, in an attempt to prevent suicide.
Maybe the gay lobby is going about it the wrong way, maybe their intention is to alleviate suffering and causing harm through unskilful means. For many there is lack of forgiveness and anger from abuse they have received for their lifestyle, and this can push many into the flamboyant effeminate manner and “gay pride” we sometimes witness. Maybe I am trying to actively listen.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

According to a news story in The New York Times(Sept 15, 2005) Fr Thomas Reese, S.J. the former Editor-in-Chief of America, said that “with the shortage of priests, the Church can hardly afford to dismiss gay seminarians.”

Fr Cozzens, a former seminary rector said in The Changing Face of the Priesthoodthat “the priesthood is becoming a gay profession.”

 

[Kolbe300]

Nobody is born gay. People want to believe it to justify their sinful ways by saying they cannot help being like that.

It amazes me how many people are convinced that sexuality is the one area where it’s impossible for the “biological wires” to get crossed. Can one be born with no arms? Yes. Can one be born blind? Yes. Can a person be born with male and female genatalia? Yes. Can one be born with severe mental retardation? Yes, of course they can. Why is everyone convinced of that? Because they can SEE it. Can one be born with a natural (to them) attraction to the same sex? Suddenly the answer is an astounding NO! The only people who seem to answer yes are the ones who have SEEN it in within themselves. Is my homosexual orientation 100% biological? I’d say no. However, just like the straightest of straight human beings, I never once CHOSE to be attracted to members of the same sex. I also didn’t choose to have great parents and I didn’t choose to not get abused growing up. Yet, somehow, I have had a homosexual orientation my entire life. You could call me gay without offending me. And I’d say that biology played as much a role in my sexuality as it did in anyone elses. So I’d ask thistle what sinful way am I trying to justify? Is living chastely a sinful way?

i like girls with freckles. do i have a biological propensity to that? of course not.

Do you have a biological propensity to WOMEN?? Is that also an “of course not”?

We are not “born gay.” Aren’t we are all pretty much non-sexual until we reach a certain age?

In that case, we ALL chose our sexuality. Do you remember deciding who you would be physically attracted to?

People want it to be exclusively a matter of genetics in an attempt to justify things.

And some people want it to be exclusively a matter of choice in an attempt to justify things.

They are in our schools, not teaching ‘tolerance’ to our children, but recruiting them to a homosexual life. They demand tolerance for themselves and are the most intolerant people in our society. They are liars, cheats and devious manipulators of public opinion. They are fundamentally dishonest people and if you want to sell them to me, I have to tell you, it’s a lost cause.

Parents are concerned about their straight children, as they should be. They never stop to think about their homosexual child. Why? Because that child couldn’t possibly exist. Certainly not in their good home with a good father and no abuse. I’m here to tell you that those children DO exist.

They are the children who get lost in the mix, the ones that are growing up the way I did, the ones growing up with a homosexual orientation and hearing from every direction how they are sick, perverted, abominations, liars, cheats, intolerant, and fundamentally dishonest. Sure, we aren’t talking about that poor kid, the one who has never committed a sexual sin in his life. Unfortunately, he can’t possibly know that. I praise God that my home was a place I could go to get away from hearing about what an abomination I was because of my sexuality. How many kids don’t have that refuge because their parents choose to be ignorant?

I read through threads like this and my heart breaks for the kids who are growing up with parents that are fundamentally blind to the damage they are doing. There will be no help for them until people make an effort to understand. When parents understand that their child might actually be gay, they may choose their words and their ways more wisely. Until then, it truly is a lost cause.

 

[Jermosh]

Jermosh;6284942:

Here:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm#IV

This is the Vatican’s website. Scroll down to 2358. (The language is the same.)

I did, and its not the same, its missing the “They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial.” line that is in some of them. Now if someone is adding the sentence, then they need to make a comment that it is not part of the official text from the Church. This is why I am trying to find out where people are getting that line from, is it in an old book, or website. I think clarity is important.

"**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. "

 

[Jermosh]

I don’t speak for anyone but myself, but the reason I am ‘anti’ homosexual lies at the feet of homosexual activists. They are trying to re-form our society to conform to their sexual orientation. They are in our schools, not teaching ‘tolerance’ to our children, but recruiting them to a homosexual life. They demand tolerance for themselves and are the most intolerant people in our society. They are liars, cheats and devious manipulators of public opinion. They are fundamentally dishonest people and if you want to sell them to me, I have to tell you, it’s a lost cause.

They should be in the schools, they should be telling the world that they are people too. While the Church is highly against the act itself, it teaches that we must treat them with up most compassion and dignity. Did you know that up till not so long ago it was illegal in some states to be Gay, we used to execute them at one time and still do in other countries. Gay men are the #1 victim of a hate crime in the sexual orientation group, did you know that Gay men were put into concentration camps by the Nazis and dealt with their own holocaust. How many intimate Gay men do you know? I have yet to met one that does not have a horror story to tell, I have been a victim of Anti-Gay hatred myself and I am not even Gay.

Till the hatred and violence stops, then they will stop.

 

[Just_Lurking]

This is why I am trying to find out where people are getting that line from, is it in an old book, or website. I think clarity is important.

User fix already explained this in post #139.

First edition, 1992/1994, called a “sure norm for teaching the faith” by John Paul II:

They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial.

Second edition, 1997, editio typica based on Latin text:

This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

 

[barramundi]

They should be in the schools, they should be telling the world that they are people too. While the Church is highly against the act itself, it teaches that we must treat them with up most compassion and dignity. Did you know that up till not so long ago it was illegal in some states to be Gay, we used to execute them at one time and still do in other countries. Gay men are the #1 victim of a hate crime in the sexual orientation group, did you know that Gay men were put into concentration camps by the Nazis and dealt with their own holocaust. How many intimate Gay men do you know? I have yet to met one that does not have a horror story to tell, I have been a victim of Anti-Gay hatred myself and I am not even Gay.

Till the hatred and violence stops, then they will stop.

Did you know that Pope Paul VI is rumoured to have been gay and unless he let the Masons run the Church they would have outed him. That he is alleged to have had intimate liaisons with a supposed actor supposed boyfriend in his private chambers inside St Peter’s?