Irrefutable Proof against being born gay?

[PassingThru]

**As a medical practitioner, who has worked in this area for over 20 years - I can tell you with certainty that a genuine homosexual orientation is NOT the result of a choice - like what to have for breakfast, or whether to eat broccoli or peas.

A proportion of the human population is fundamentally oriented towards same - sex attraction, and for these individuals, it is not a choice. It is how they are naturally oriented as human beings.

Now some Christians argue, that such orientation is actually “disordered” or a “misorientation” as all are created as heterosexual by God. Some argue that this is the responsibility of the individual making the “choice” to be homosexual, or the result of “demonic” influence upon the individual.

Well, we could say the same about any sin.

But I (and my psychiatric profession) are absolutely sure that heterosexuals do not “choose” to be heterosexual - they are naturally oriented that way, or they have been created that way - or they are that way because of nature (genetic pre-determinants OR genetic predisposition) and because of nurture (the environment they grew up in).

Having said that, I treat many individuals who are homosexual who grew up in exclusively heterosexual environments - and also individuals who are heterosexual who grew up with homosexual parent(s).**

Good measured response.

I think for a lot of people, it is much more comfortable or convenient to argue in such a way to make sure that, regardless of reason, somehow it is the person who is responsible for their orientation. Making the person fully responsible makes it far easier to feel comfortable blaming or judging the person. You see it here and elsewhere.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Warpspeed, as an aside, you never answered when you made your choice to be straight…

“Before I slept with a woman” is not an answer.

i said

“i made the decision to be ‘straight’ every time i laid down with one”

what i mean is that it is a choice. i dont believe in ‘gay’. i believe people make choices.

the only quality that we can point to and say 'this is gay" is the homosexual act. every other action or quality of the person can belong to anyone. straight men can like showtunes. straight women can have short hair. etc.

so people make their choices shen they perform a specific act, not an inborn trait.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

**As a medical practitioner, who has worked in this area for over 20 years - I can tell you with certainty that a genuine homosexual orientation is NOT the result of a choice - like what to have for breakfast, or whether to eat broccoli or peas.

A proportion of the human population is fundamentally oriented towards same - sex attraction, and for these individuals, it is not a choice. It is how they are naturally oriented as human beings.

Now some Christians argue, that such orientation is actually “disordered” or a “misorientation” as all are created as heterosexual by God. Some argue that this is the responsibility of the individual making the “choice” to be homosexual, or the result of “demonic” influence upon the individual.

Well, we could say the same about any sin.

But I (and my psychiatric profession) are absolutely sure that heterosexuals do not “choose” to be heterosexual - they are naturally oriented that way, or they have been created that way - or they are that way because of nature (genetic pre-determinants OR genetic predisposition) and because of nurture (the environment they grew up in).

Having said that, I treat many individuals who are homosexual who grew up in exclusively heterosexual environments - and also individuals who are heterosexual who grew up with homosexual parent(s).**

whats your methodology for this position?

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

**I adhere to mainstream psychological and psychiatric practice - as endorsed by the relevant professional body in Australia. I would be expelled form the society and from practice if I did not adhere to medical established fact.

I hasten to point out, that our methodological, and diagnostic approach is virtually identical to those applying to psychiatrists in the USA, Canada and Europe.**

 

[djeter]

Thank you, dj, for posting this. It was a scholarly, well-written, well-documented point of light in the midst of a lot of foot stamping and unsupported insistence.

For those who do not usually follow links, I say, get yourself a cup of coffee and check this one out. It’s long and intense, but well worth it.

Betsy

Thanks for the kind word, Betsy. There is so much to this topic it seems doomed to a lengthy treatment. But folks need to learn to spend the time to understand all nuances. Part of the problem is that we say “homosexual” as if we know what it is. In truth, there is a wide range of influences into what homosexuality is and each demands a different response. Sodergen’s article demonstrates this rather conclusively.

Another good one I have on the site is from the Wall Street Journal a few months back discussing Faith and Sexual Identity here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/08/18/faith-and-sexual-identity/

Although it describes a “new therapy,” in reality this is part of a continuous demand, originating in faith, that requires something other than the corrosive “gay-affirming therapy” the Homosexulists among us agitate ceaselessly for. I use both articles in my defense of Catholic teachings online.

dj

 

[warpspeedpetey]

**I adhere to mainstream psychological and psychiatric practice - as endorsed by the relevant professional body in Australia. I would be expelled form the society and from practice if I did not adhere to medical established fact.

I hasten to point out, that our methodological, and diagnostic approach is virtually identical to those applying to psychiatrists in the USA, Canada and Europe.**

and im sure that you are a respected member of the medical profession. however, im not familiar with the methodologies employed that have established these things as medical fact.

could you give me more information, as to the specific methodological practices? maybe a link to the data, and the governing bodies site that may give me the methodological standards, for comparison?

im just curious, ive seen that claim several times now, but i havent seen the data and methods that have led to the claims being made.

 

[michaeldaniels]

I adhere to The Catholic Church

**I adhere to mainstream psychological and psychiatric practice - as endorsed by the relevant professional body in Australia. I would be expelled form the society and from practice if I did not adhere to medical established fact.

I hasten to point out, that our methodological, and diagnostic approach is virtually identical to those applying to psychiatrists in the USA, Canada and Europe.**

 

[camerong]

I adhere to The Catholic Church

Not on this issue, you don’t.

Last time I checked scripture was infallible…also, last time I checked…the Church’s view on homosexuality was not…

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[JRforhope]

That is one of the most difficult subjects.

I know how I stand as a Traditional Catholic and a father of 2 children, but at the same time I wouldn’t dare say what I’d actually do if I were the father of a child that said they were gay.

I certainly wouldn’t want it ever to be said that I’d been cruel or acted with anything other than compassion.

 

[raaucoin]

because of the "fall of Adam(ok- and Eve) we must now constantly fight our inclination to sin.God didn’t choose that for us. I don’t know if it is “nurture or nature”. I don’t even care if I was born this way. I just know that I have always -as far back as I can remember- been this way. And just as some one who has an extremely difficult time controlling his/ her temper but still doesn’t have a license to act out freely on that, so must I control my actions.

The world had me believe that there was no other option than to act on my desires, impulses, or whatever. I bought into that. As a result, (most of ) the world patted me on the back for accepting “who God created me to be”.

It is the grace from God that allows me to embrace the fact not that I am a sinner- and oh if past homosexual activity would have been my only sin returning to God’s grace would have been easy!-but that His grace is more powerful than my inclination to sin.

I have been so unworthily given the gift to be able to offer this condition with our Lord in His agonizing passion. And the truth be known, it isn’t that difficult to live my life out in chastity.
We will probably be arguing about this until the end of time. But I don’t have to argue any more. I know God created me out of love, like all humanity. I know that we chose to turn away from the life He intended in paradise free from all struggle and strife. But He so loved the world(me) that He sent His only Son that whoever would believe might have eternal life. We have all we need in our Lord who suffered died, and Rose again that there would no longer be ANY sin that could keep us from Him if we repent and are reconciled.

No situation, condition, or “disorder”(That still sounds funny to me-chill out! I understand what the church means and I agree!)is ever to difficult to handle- if we allow the Holy Spirit to move us where we never dreamed we could go.
And finally, being chaste has in no way been a denial of self for me. I fully accept that for whatever reason, I am not called to marriage. Whether straight or gay, that means I stay chaste. And where I also once argued for my “gift of (homo)sexuality”, I have now accepted the tremendous gift of chastity and BOY !!Have I received many more blessings because of it.

 

[danblncht]

I am not privie to that information and honestly, I have never asked. He has never questioned me about my sexual activity so----eventhough he pals around with the girls he has always had a boyfriend.

My question though is why was he so very feminine and at such a young age? And he still is very feminine in his speach and actions. Since then I have noticed this in a few other little boys.

It makes me think that maybe some ARE born that way. I’m just asking.

I think that it may be a matter of peer pressure. Boys with feminine characteristics grow up hearing the whispers that they are “gay”, we all want to fit in, know our place in society, it is almost a self fulling prophesy. Boy is feminine so he must be gay. Boy finds identity in homosexual culture.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I think that it may be a matter of peer pressure. Boys with feminine characteristics grow up hearing the whispers that they are “gay”, we all want to fit in, know our place in society, it is almost a self fulling prophesy. Boy is feminine so he must be gay. Boy finds identity in homosexual culture.

that makes a whole lotta sense.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Not on this issue, you don’t.

They do not choose their homosexual condition

this isnt a statement on faith and morals, its a statement on science, not infallible then, and we are free to disagree. at least thats my opinion on the matter. treading in bad territory, but you keep saying it as though its a forgone conclusion because its in the CCC.

 

[Evenprimes]

There are extremely high concordance rates for monozygotic twins, indicating a very prominant influence of biology on homosexuality.

The first study of this came up with extremely high concordance rates due to bad methodology. Later studies (plural–the result was successfully duplicated) found that in male monozygotic twins where one twin was homosexual, about 50% of the time the other twin was as well. With fraternal twins, the rate was around 20%. As I read the data, this suggests two things:

1. Same sex attraction cannot be genetically predetermined. Otherwise monozygotic twins (who have the same genotype) would both have or both lack this trait.
2. Biology is a factor influencing the development of same sex attraction. If it were entirely environmental factors, fraternal twins should have the same concordance rate as monozygotic twins. This could mean that genetics make some people more likely than others to develop SSA in response to the same set of environmental stimuli, but that’s one of many possible explanations.

With adopted siblings, there is (IIRC) a 12% correspondence rate–which may be three times the prevalence of homosexuality in the general population (if we reject Kinsey’s 10% fib). This further supports the idea that environmental factors play a role.

Disclaimer: I ought to cite sources and double check my numbers, but I really don’t want to do all that googling again. You may want to track down the studies yourself before quoting these exact numbers.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

If you have a son/daughter and homosexuality is part of their nature, if one rejects the child because what they are is disagreeable to your principles there is a choice - Do you want to keep your child?
Do you love your child enough to embrace what you believe in them to be imperfection?

 

[thistle]

If you have a son/daughter and homosexuality is part of their nature, if one rejects the child because what they are is disagreeable to your principles there is a choice - Do you want to keep your child?
Do you love your child enough to embrace what you believe in them to be imperfection?

Nobody should ever condemn their child. Their sinful activity yes but not the person.
If a son becomes an active homosexual the parents should continue to love their son but try to get him to see why his sexual behaviour is sinful and not acceptable. If nothing can be done to change him that is still not a reason to reject him.
If my son was a gay and would not change he would certainly be made aware of how I view such activity and why but I wouldn’t reject my son. I wouldn’t allow him to bring gay partners into my house and I would not attend his gay “marriage” if such a situation arose but I would never stop loving him or having an ongoing father-son relationship.

 

[Bastoune]

As far as I remember, something like 10% of homosexual men are homosexual for this reason. The idea is that with successive male pregnancies, the mother’s immune system starts destroying the male hormones (or something along those lines) and the later male children have a higher percentage of being gay.

This is still an example of environment rather than genetics.

There have been studies done on twins and siblings, identical twins are more likely to share the same sexual orientation than fraternal twins than siblings. But it’s not 100%, like in all cases it’s a combination of genetic and environmental factors.

That’s absolutely bogus as a theory as most homosexuals I know are the OLDEST child and their younger siblings are all extremely heterosexual – which is curious since the oldest child is gay but the others are on the opposite end of the pendulum swing – totally masculine, macho, etc.

There may be genetic disposition for homosexuality, just like for alcoholism, but ultimately, environmental factors play a role in helping to determine things.

And even if it WERE “innate” does it make homosexuality permissible or any less sinful? We are BORN with ORIGINAL SIN, inherited perhaps indeed genetically! I may have been born with a nasty temper. Does that authorize me to explode whenever I want, break things, hurt people, curse, etc.? No.

The logic is flawed.

 

[Bastoune]

that makes a whole lotta sense.

And not so much that the “effeminate male” feels like he HAS to be gay, but the male is taught that being a man means “X, Y, Z” behaviours. And maybe this guy doesn’t like football, doesn’t enjoy treating women like pieces of meat, and is more sensitive than his friends.

SOCIETY pushes on people such stereotypes and warps their minds and ultimately, the person seeks companionship in a homosexual relationship, hoping to find someone “similar” in their sensitivities, confusing intimacy of friendship with sexual intimacy and perhaps rejection by women and a desire for approval among male peers plays a psychological factor.

I actually think the “roots” of homosexuality VARY from person to person. There is no “one right answer” – but maybe one person is driven by more biological factors, others purely by societal or environmental ones.

They are called to chastity and we are called to love them and welcome them, seeing in them Jesus Christ in whose image they were created.

 

[Kilby]

We are all called to chastity. I have met many men with quite feminine personalities and women who embrace masculinity in many ways. That doesn’t make them innocent if they fornicate with anyone, whether it be with someone of the same or opposite sex. Our culture has very sensitive mores. A homosexual shouldn’t be discriminated for his or her personality, as they often are. But the conjugal act – the sexual gift of self – is rightly preserved for husband and wife only through the Sacrament of Marriage.

I believe the essence of Catholic moral theology is based on objectivity. The Church protects the gift of sexual intercourse with the Sacrament of Marriage because the natural objective of the gift is to bring forth life. To disconnect making love from making life is to fragment the concept of God who is love and life.

A homosexual who practices chastity is just as innocent as a heterosexual who does the same. So the issue of whether or not someone is born gay is irrelevant, because we are all born to be chaste. The skewed idea of homosexuality in our culture has blown things out of proportion. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because men were speaking with a lisp and swinging their hips. He destroyed those cities because homosexuals were engaging in promiscuous activity with the same sex.

 

[happygolucky]

warpspeed, you keep saying there is no ‘gay,’ that a man chooses their attraction to other men. However;

i have a problem with the idea that being gay is anything but a choice.

I know someone proposed the same question to you; but again, when did you ever ‘decide’ you were ‘attracted’ to woman? You said it was when you slept with women that you ‘chose’ to be ‘straight.’ However, why women? Why is it you chose to sleep with a woman and not a man? You keep going back to, well I chose to sleep with a woman and therefore I am straight; But you still never answer the question why a woman? You also said,

i want a good woman, who can be my best friend, a wife, a mother to my children

Alright, so again; why a woman? Who’s to say a male cannot feel this way about another male? He wants a good man who can be his best friend, a husband, and a father to his children if he opts for adoption. However, despite how he feels about other men, despite how he longs for one as a partner, that doesn’t necessarily mean he will act out on these feelings. This is just how he is attracted. He is attracted towards men in the same way you are attracted towards women; the only difference is that his attraction is sinful and he can never get that partner that you so long for. He instead will have to put his desires away, while you can still hope for the woman of your dreams.