Kevin,
Hi CarlaOLS. Long time not talk.
I hope you are well. When it comes to this subject matter, I think you have the best approach and the right idea. I don’t always agree with you 100% but I certainly agree with you more than I don’t. You are obviously very convinced that SSA is a result of complicated circumstances in a person’s life. While I have no doubt that complicated circumstances (whatever they may be) can and do have an effect on one’s developing sexuality, I am nowhere near as convinced that outside factors are the cause for every homosexual’s sexual orientation. For me personally, it simply doesn’t matter what the cause is. The cause of my sexuality changes absolutely nothing for how I should approach my life moving forward. I have wondered if someone with your understanding (which I find light-years ahead of many on here), would consider the possibility that homosexuality could be “hard-wired”? Do you look at that as a possibility or is there no way for you to go there?While I understand what you’re saying, I’d also venture to say that claiming homosexuality could not possibly be inborn is an easy way out for those on the other side of the argument. The one fact that everyone should agree on is that we simply don’t know THE cause(s). That’s why I find definitive statements on the cause of homosexuality to be misleading. Everyone has a right to their theory, but that theory shouldn’t be gospel until it’s proven. Some people will scream of the impossibility of a person’s sexuality being inborn when the only “proof” they have of that is a general distaste for the idea. I can stand here, someone with SSA, and say I have no idea the cause. It may have nothing to do with genetics, it may have everything to do with genetics. I simply don’t know. I have my own theories, based on my own experiences, but I can’t know for sure.
If everyone could come to a common understanding of what “change” actually means (like your definition above) it would make such a difference. It’s one thing I can’t STAND about “ex-gay” ministries. Their definition of “cure” or “change” is so vague as to be meaningless. Anyway, thank you again for a compassionate approach to all of this.
A quote taken out of context. The thrust of Carla’s argument is avoided
Anger. Broken people remain so because they never truly understand the nature and extent of God’s Love.
I am a Christian Family Counsellor
“The Lord is close to the brokenhearted; he rescues those who are crushed in spirit” (Ps 34:18)
“Surface change is often mistaken for deep change. When the medication of exciting worship and inspiring preaching relieves the symptoms of sin, the need for the surgery of brokenness is no longer recognized” (Larry Crabb, 66 Love Letters)
Is their change a manifestation of Christian co-dependence or of freedom in Christ?
Sorry, no.
Thanks to you as well!
This is a reasoning I’ve never really been able to understand. For starters, it would mean that we must actually be capable of knowing God’s design and plans. Do we believe that a severely handicapped child, born that way, is contrary to God’s design and plans for procreation? I would think most of us don’t. I see the world as fallen. I don’t for a second believe that God is in heaven handing out different handicaps to certain unborn children. That doesn’t mean children aren’t born with “abnormalities”, some of which are horrifyingly severe. Just because God isn’t handing out abnormalities doesn’t mean these children are any less “planned” by God. It’s easy for people to accept that a human being can be born with a physical abnormality because the abnormality can be seen. For some reason, when it comes to sexuality, many people believe there is no possible way those “wires” could be “crossed” from the beginning. It’s not their opinion that bothers me as much as their desire to hold that opinion at all costs.
I’m curious if you believe that every homosexual person had to have been deprived of normal same-sex bonding?
I’d have to say this is an area where I disagree with you 100% Has your research actually lead you to statistics supporting this?
CarloOLS, what you said there is exactly why I find definitive judgments like “it can’t possibly be hard-wired because that goes against God’s plan” so disturbing. Why would anyone feel that homosexuality being in-born would mean you could hang up the fight for truth? If it was determined tomorrow that homosexuality was abosolutely, 100% irreversably genetic, the Church would have to change its stance on NOTHING. God’s revelation and teachings for sex would not suddenly have to change or be damaged. If the cause of homosexuality were to be discovered (regardless of what it was) it would mean only one thing: the cause of homosexuality had been discovered. That’s it. Yet there is this overwhelming push, more often than not by people who haven’t done any research, to ensure that the cause must have nothing to do with creation and everything to do with behavior. I simply don’t get that.
Peace!More often than not I relish the subtlety of your delivery; in this posting you have me a little lost. Are you suggesting homosexuality is a “handicap”, an “abnormality… horrifyingly severe”? That homosexuality is about “crossed wiring”? A blessing from God, but a mistake. Like when He caused the Flood to wipe out evil from the earth…and failed
?I don’t see your “scientific” reasoning here at all. What you are saying must mean that for heterosexuals, we find the opposite gender attractive because our opposite-gender parent deprived us of affection. That is nonsense. What do you possibly mean by “the fact that heterosexuals share no such early memories of attraction to the opposite sex”? Are you kidding? That is just FALSE.
You start on the topic here, then you veer off onto proselytizing about Christ. IF (I give you the benefit of the doubt) you mean that you WOULD use a biological factor (one of several other factors, at best) to make excuses for yourself, then, well, ok–speak for yourself. But so you know, no one is actually arguing a “hard-wired theory”…well, except for for some folks who argue that we are all wired as heterosexuals (by God and Natural Law) but that other factors mess with this and screw it up. I am simply asking you to be consistent: what you apply to one orientation you must apply to the other.I absolutely have to disagree with you that rejecting the hardwired theory is easier for anyone. Oh that I could embrace it! It would be akin to my finding out that a fetus is indeed soulless and in no need of protection. I could hang up that good fight as well. But alas, the work of spreading the truth, of saving souls, of helping my brothers and sisters in Christ to find THE WAY continues. I trust you will believe me when I tell you, by the grace of God everything I do, write, and say, out of compassion for souls, is to witness to THE TRUTH, to do my part as I feel called by God.
Honest.
Hi Kevin. No, I’m not saying that a homosexual orientation is a “handicap” or “horiffyingly severe”. I would, however, call it an abnormality in as much as most people don’t have a homosexual orientation. It isn’t the “norm”. My point was simply the fact that people can look at something as difficult to grasp as a child born with a horrifyingly severe physical handicap without thinking (even for a moment) that somehow that child’s handicap couldn’t possibly fit into God’s plan. God’s plan, as we like to say, is a “mystery”. I believe that, wholeheartedly. It is a mystery. While a child born with a physical handicap isn’t an easy thing for us to understand, I certainly wouldn’t erase that child from God’s plan (handicap and all). When the debate is on homosexuality and it’s nature, its seems as if many believe the mystery of God’s plan is suddenly not so mysterious. They seem to know that a homosexual orientation is not, could not, and never will be a part of God’s plan. At least not from birth.More often than not I relish the subtlety of your delivery; in this posting you have me a little lost. Are you suggesting homosexuality is a “handicap”, an “abnormality… horrifyingly severe”? That homosexuality is about “crossed wiring”? A blessing from God, but a mistake. Like when He caused the Flood to wipe out evil from the earth…and failed
Take care.Are you only making a statistical comment here? Marrying at 50 isn’t “normal,” then either. Or having a child at 40. Do you respond to those activities the same way? What, really, do statistical norms have to do with morality? Even sexual morality?
The term “horrifyingly severe physical handicap” being bracketted in the same sentence as homosexual in the manner in which you present it grieves me. Maybe it is a poor choice of words on your part? Maybe it is delicate sensitivity on mine?
Why ask chastity of gays?
Hi larkin,
When are single persons called to live in chastity? Is this Biblical? Do you mean monks, nuns, and priests? Or do you mean the admonition against fornication? Is homosexuality “fornication”? Why is homosexuality a sexual sin?